Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

JohnM

"Scotland has the lowest average household water bills in these Islands."

48 posts in this topic

Are English born people really a different ethnic group to Scots?  I'm not sure that Scotland is universally tolerant, I'm not sure whether you've noticed or not but there seems to be some tension between a couple of the main christian sects.

along with the reported cases of abuse of english people in Scotland

an orange walk in Glasgow is a sight to behold-very disturbing.

 

and to consider scots people an ethnic group raises some worrying questions.

 

I wonder what Hardeep singh Kohli makes of it

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=hardeep+singh+kohli+in+kilt&qpvt=hardeep+singh+kohli+in+kilt&FORM=IGRE#view=detail&id=140373A701861F8A736018A2F141D3CF38035D54&selectedIndex=2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't it just as easy to say that everywhere you go in the world there will be ignorant, arrogant people who think anyone from outside of their family's narrow culture and 2 miles of where they grew up is worthy of abuse?

 

I don't think Scotland is any better or worse than England in that respect, they have some points they're better than England, for example their tolerance of non-Scots, they have some points they're worse, for example their outdated sectarianism.  A Jewish friend of mine said to me once that the safest two places in the world to be a Jew were Glasgow and Belfast during the marching seasons!

 

The thing, as pointed out by MH above, is that the "no" campaign seems to be full of the type of people who are most likely to be arrogant, abusive or snobbish to foreign or English people.  The condescension alone from those people would be enough to make me vote "yes" out of spite towards them.

 

Legally, Scots, English, Welsh and Irish are accepted and defined ethnic groups within the UK.  There have been a few law suits that have succeeded on that principle.  To answer the point about Hardeep Singh Kohli, you can be of asian heritage, much like him and Tony Singh with their love of Scotland and kilts, and still be considered ethnically Scottish.  It's a thing of birthplace and belonging.

 

On this, Scotland is so far ahead of England it's ridiculous.  If you're of non-white appearance but were born in Scotland and say you're Scottish then you're accepted as a Scot both explicitly and implicitly.  In England it just drives me potty, my wife's parents are Indian but she's very obviously English in her accent, mannerisms and where she was born yet she gets unconscious racism all the time.  For example, she did her first aid certificate refresh earlier this year, the instructor asked her where she was from, she said Essex but now lives in Ipswich, at the next coffee break the instructor told her that "Your English is very good, you must have worked hard on it to lose your accent, most people like you have such strong foreign accents".  There was nothing malicious in this but, FFS, you don't have to be white to be English!  I'd hate to be non-white in England with the casual, utterly unintended but unconscious and real racism that I see regularly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe is the circles you move in.

 

Here in east Lincolnshire, quite a few people seem quite racist , xenophobic and colour prejudiced. The say the Lincs coast is not at the end of the world...but you can see it from here.

However, in my working life, I've never come across the sort of comments you make in your last paragraph, though I have met some anti-English attitudes when dealing with the Scottish  division of a major British  company I worked for for 20 years.

 

Then there is Methven, who does his best to disagree  even with people who agree with him!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe is the circles you move in.

 

Here in east Lincolnshire, quite a few people seem quite racist , xenophobic and colour prejudiced. The say the Lincs coast is not at the end of the world...but you can see it from here.

However, in my working life, I've never come across the sort of comments you make in your last paragraph, though I have met some anti-English attitudes when dealing with the Scottish  division of a major British  company I worked for for 20 years.

 

Then there is Methven, who does his best to disagree  even with people who agree with him!

Maybe it's because I look for it that I see it.  Here in the south east of England:  On busy trains, the seat next to a young asian man will be the last one taken.  On buses, people are far more reluctant to give up their seats to pregnant asian women.  If an asian man sits next to a white person, especially older ones, you can see them tense up as if they were going to be blown up.  I've seen people decide to wait on the next tube because someone getting on in front of them is dressed in traditional muslim clothes.  An asian man with a backpack tends to look like someone from a Right Guard advert going by how much space people give him.  I've had more than a few HR people tell me "remember to check his passport for proof of nationality and right to work" when I'm going to interview someone with an asian name, I've never, not once in hundreds of interviews, been asked to do the same for a white guy, even if they have a non-English name, and I've never been asked to show mine either.  I could go on...

 

This isn't BNP or NF level racism, it's usually utterly unconscious and not malicious in meaning but it's still racism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure how the "No campaign" is based on a hatred of all things Scots and yet is winning hands down. I think a bit of personal bias is showing through.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In England it just drives me potty, my wife's parents are Indian but she's very obviously English in her accent, mannerisms and where she was born yet she gets unconscious racism all the time.  For example, she did her first aid certificate refresh earlier this year, the instructor asked her where she was from, she said Essex but now lives in Ipswich, at the next coffee break the instructor told her that "Your English is very good, you must have worked hard on it to lose your accent".  

 

The Essex accent really is appalling.  Your wife seems to have rid herself of it well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Hidden by ckn, October 21, 2013 - No reason given

Isn't it just as easy to say that everywhere you go in the world there will be ignorant, arrogant people who think anyone from outside of their family's narrow culture and 2 miles of where they grew up is worthy of abuse?

I don't think Scotland is any better or worse than England in that respect, they have some points they're better than England, for example their tolerance of non-Scots, they have some points they're worse, for example their outdated sectarianism. A Jewish friend of mine said to me once that the safest two places in the world to be a Jew were Glasgow and Belfast during the marching seasons!

The thing, as pointed out by MH above, is that the "no" campaign seems to be full of the type of people who are most likely to be arrogant, abusive or snobbish to foreign or English people. The condescension alone from those people would be enough to make me vote "yes" out of spite towards them.

Legally, Scots, English, Welsh and Irish are accepted and defined ethnic groups within the UK. There have been a few law suits that have succeeded on that principle. To answer the point about Hardeep Singh Kohli, you can be of asian heritage, much like him and Tony Singh with their love of Scotland and kilts, and still be considered ethnically Scottish. It's a thing of birthplace and belonging.

On this, Scotland is so far ahead of England it's ridiculous. If you're of non-white appearance but were born in Scotland and say you're Scottish then you're accepted as a Scot both explicitly and implicitly. In England it just drives me potty, my wife's parents are Indian but she's very obviously English in her accent, mannerisms and where she was born yet she gets unconscious racism all the time. For example, she did her first aid certificate refresh earlier this year, the instructor asked her where she was from, she said Essex but now lives in Ipswich, at the next coffee break the instructor told her that "Your English is very good, you must have worked hard on it to lose your accent, most people like you have such strong foreign accents". There was nothing malicious in this but, FFS, you don't have to be white to be English! I'd hate to be non-white in England with the casual, utterly unintended but unconscious and real racism that I see regularly.

It is just as easy and entirely legitimate

However that isn't what I was doing

What was doing was expressing my disdain and mistrust of those who express it especially when they do so boorishly and ignorantly, and the way that can be expressed in terms of for instance attitudes to 'outsiders'

I'm very curious to see how things pan out with Scotland should it become independent

Hardeep Singh is a Scottish Sikh and therefore doesn't conform to the notion of a Scottish race that methane alluded to. I don't believe this is a desirable concept and Singh confounds it hence I used him to illustrate the point

No wonder Jews feel safe in Glasgow and Belfast during the marching season: the bigots are busy hating each other

Share this post


Link to post

Isn't it just as easy to say that everywhere you go in the world there will be ignorant, arrogant people who think anyone from outside of their family's narrow culture and 2 miles of where they grew up is worthy of abuse?

I don't think Scotland is any better or worse than England in that respect, they have some points they're better than England, for example their tolerance of non-Scots, they have some points they're worse, for example their outdated sectarianism. A Jewish friend of mine said to me once that the safest two places in the world to be a Jew were Glasgow and Belfast during the marching seasons!

The thing, as pointed out by MH above, is that the "no" campaign seems to be full of the type of people who are most likely to be arrogant, abusive or snobbish to foreign or English people. The condescension alone from those people would be enough to make me vote "yes" out of spite towards them.

Legally, Scots, English, Welsh and Irish are accepted and defined ethnic groups within the UK. There have been a few law suits that have succeeded on that principle. To answer the point about Hardeep Singh Kohli, you can be of asian heritage, much like him and Tony Singh with their love of Scotland and kilts, and still be considered ethnically Scottish. It's a thing of birthplace and belonging.

On this, Scotland is so far ahead of England it's ridiculous. If you're of non-white appearance but were born in Scotland and say you're Scottish then you're accepted as a Scot both explicitly and implicitly. In England it just drives me potty, my wife's parents are Indian but she's very obviously English in her accent, mannerisms and where she was born yet she gets unconscious racism all the time. For example, she did her first aid certificate refresh earlier this year, the instructor asked her where she was from, she said Essex but now lives in Ipswich, at the next coffee break the instructor told her that "Your English is very good, you must have worked hard on it to lose your accent, most people like you have such strong foreign accents". There was nothing malicious in this but, FFS, you don't have to be white to be English! I'd hate to be non-white in England with the casual, utterly unintended but unconscious and real racism that I see regularly.

It is just as easy and entirely legitimate

However that isn't what I was doing

What was doing was expressing my disdain and mistrust of those who express it especially when they do so boorishly and ignorantly, and the way that can be expressed in terms of for instance attitudes to 'outsiders'

I'm very curious to see how things pan out with Scotland should it become independent

Hardeep Singh is a Scottish Sikh and therefore doesn't conform to the notion of a Scottish race that methane alluded to. I don't believe this is a desirable concept and Singh confounds it hence I used him to illustrate the point

No wonder Jews feel safe in Glasgow and Belfast during the marching season: the bigots are busy hating each other

 

on the subject of feeling safe

 

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1786002

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9737918/Record-number-of-racist-attacks-on-English-in-Scotland.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what would happen if the SNP didn't get its way in the referendum?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what would happen if the SNP didn't get its way in the referendum?

I can see repatriation of powers to Westminster both by overt and covert methods.  The threat of independence has been the big stick Scotland has waved for years now, devolution was thought by many to be the independence killer but all it's done is show the Scots what they can get from their local government powers.  Without the threat of independence hanging over Westminster, there's absolutely no incentive for them to grant the devolved executive any more powers and absolutely no bar to them repatriating powers.

 

The devo-max offering is probably the one that would have achieved a solid majority in Scotland but it doesn't suit the vested interests of either the SNP or the Westminster politicians.  Strange that, the thing that the electorate probably wants the most is the one that's not going to be offered to them...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope not.

Either they should get their own country or stop banging the independence drum.

Devo max is just "Can we have our cake and eat it?".

Actually it is not even that.

It's "We demand to have our cake and eat it you English pigs".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope not.

Either they should get their own country or stop banging the independence drum.

Devo max is just "Can we have our cake and eat it?".

Actually it is not even that.

It's "We demand to have our cake and eat it you English pigs".

Not really... it essentially would turn the UK into the US model of federal UK and state Scotland.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can see repatriation of powers to Westminster both by overt and covert methods.  The threat of independence has been the big stick Scotland has waved for years now, devolution was thought by many to be the independence killer but all it's done is show the Scots what they can get from their local government powers.  Without the threat of independence hanging over Westminster, there's absolutely no incentive for them to grant the devolved executive any more powers and absolutely no bar to them repatriating powers.

 

The devo-max offering is probably the one that would have achieved a solid majority in Scotland but it doesn't suit the vested interests of either the SNP or the Westminster politicians.  Strange that, the thing that the electorate probably wants the most is the one that's not going to be offered to them...

where will such a vote leave the SNP

what is the likjelihood of the referendum not coming up with the goods for them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope not.

Either they should get their own country or stop banging the independence drum.

Devo max is just "Can we have our cake and eat it?".

Actually it is not even that.

It's "We demand to have our cake and eat it you English pigs".

I have a lot of sympathy for your view.

Are there any of those wartime forts in the North Sea vacant?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

where will such a vote leave the SNP

what is the likjelihood of the referendum not coming up with the goods for them?

The SNP would still have a very important role if they lost the independence vote.  They'll probably be stronger than they would if they won as they have a good record in shielding the Scots from Westminster policy whereas the other parties are just by-blows of the main parties full of people who couldn't get chosen as a Westminster MP candidate.  If they won the independence vote then I'd see Labour becoming more resurgent as an independent party and taking the country back into minority or coalition rule.

 

I think the "yes" campaign will build steam as time goes and it'll be a close-run thing but I think the "no" vote will win.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not really... it essentially would turn the UK into the US model of federal UK and state Scotland.

I'm not quite sure that this is how the SNP will be selling it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

where will such a vote leave the SNP

what is the likjelihood of the referendum not coming up with the goods for them?

There isn't the remotest chance that it will. The "yes vote" is struggling to get 30% support. Sephologists reckon that the status quo vote tends to pick up towards the end of any referendum campaign. Unless David Cameron makes Gaelic illegal, force feeds young Scots kids jellied eels and then ritually burns the Scottish flag the result is a forgone conclusion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don't know the answer to this, but say Cameron has a referendum on the EU as he said he would, and the Scots have independence and a majority of voters in the remaining UK say out in the referendum, where does that leave the scots who want to come to what remains of the UK?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There isn't the remotest chance that it will. The "yes vote" is struggling to get 30% support. Sephologists reckon that the status quo vote tends to pick up towards the end of any referendum campaign. Unless David Cameron makes Gaelic illegal, force feeds young Scots kids jellied eels and then ritually burns the Scottish flag the result is a forgone conclusion.

then why are the SNP so full of themselves?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

then why are the SNP so full of themselves?

Every time there's been a public debate so far on this with both the yes and no campaigns, the yes vote has gone up among the audience.  It's one of the reasons he's desperate to get Cameron in on a live TV debate and why Cameron is steadfastly refusing.  Also, I think Cameron is acutely aware that he's like a squeaky teenager compared to Salmond when it comes to robust politicking and would most likely come out looking silly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The SNP would still have a very important role if they lost the independence vote.  They'll probably be stronger than they would if they won as they have a good record in shielding the Scots from Westminster policy whereas the other parties are just by-blows of the main parties full of people who couldn't get chosen as a Westminster MP candidate.  If they won the independence vote then I'd see Labour becoming more resurgent as an independent party and taking the country back into minority or coalition rule.

 

I think the "yes" campaign will build steam as time goes and it'll be a close-run thing but I think the "no" vote will win.

Currently the polls are pointing to a No vote, followed by the return of an SNP government, with the possibility of another majority. On word of warning, though, is that the polling organisations don't have a great track record in Scotland. One pollster has spent the last twelve months asking "how would you vote if the referendum was tomorrow?", reflecting their practice in voting intention polls, not seeming to understand that the referendum is not going to be tomorrow, it going to be on a certain date. When they switched to asking how they would vote on September 18th, 2014, the number of don't knows trebled from 10% to over 30%.

One thing to remember, and I don't know if this comes across south of the border, but the independence campaign hasn't really started yet. Yes Scotland have been building up a grassroots network of volunteers, which have been doing some kinds of things like running stalls in High Streets and at community events, and recruiting and training campaign volunteers. Other than that they have spent their time reacting and responding to almost daily scare stories in the press (some more ludicrous than others) and claims by Better Together and their supporters.

The SNP have been very quiet and, in fact, when Alex Salmond gave his speech the other day I realised I hadn't heard him discuss the independence issue for quite a while. Nicola Sturgeon, who is actually leading the government's case for a sovereign Scotland, has done a number of interviews and debates, but it has all been a bit low-key. I would expect things to pick up after the November white paper (26th?) and then in the new year. And the official campaigning period will be 16 weeks, as opposed to just over 3 weeks for a general election. This will be a time of prolonged and intense debate, so things could change

What happens in the event of a No vote is, of course, speculation, but it does offer up opportunities for both the SNP and Scotland. Whilst obviously a setback for a party dedicated to the re-establishment of an independent Scotland, it would also free them from that burden for a while. The question would have been asked and declined, but the party could then go all out to win the further powers and responsibilities that Scotland needs, and that a majority of people in Scotland support. Further autonomy within the UK has been hinted at by the British parties if we vote No, and this would be the time to pressure Westminster into delivering. I could see the SNP leading a successful and popular campaign on this which the others might find difficult to handle. How could they possibly argue against something like full financial autonomy and the granting of all powers other than, say, defence, foreign affairs and certain economic functions? If, as the unionists claim, Scotland is subsidised then the rest of the UK would stand to gain. ;)

Westminster would refuse, of course, but that would kick off a whole new ball game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don't know the answer to this, but say Cameron has a referendum on the EU as he said he would, and the Scots have independence and a majority of voters in the remaining UK say out in the referendum, where does that leave the scots who want to come to what remains of the UK?

Possibly in the same situation as citizens of the Republic of Ireland post-1949.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



League Express - Mon 24th July 2017

Rugby League World - August 2017