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The Daddy

Rebel super league clubs now totalling nine

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Re that  qote above, I wanted to write underneath that it seems to me a point that bears some sensible examination.

 

We live in a world now that offers every resident of an original `Our Game' catchment area, many more ways to enjoy their leisure time than thirty / forty years ago.  So too, more money to do it with.  It seems logical to me therefore, that two or three clubs so geographically close together now, that each one is struggling to maintain - let alone increase - its fan base at a financially viable level, should be able to sit down together and talk rationally about survival based on sound business structures and the realities of income generation.

They can do what the heck they want, no skin off my nose and if nobody ever merges I would not care, but the sight of fartown with a rich man and no crowd and Bradford with a crowd and no rich man and halifax still reeling from 2003 makes the job of a few SL clubs dominating ad nauseum all the easier.

Will a challenge ever come from Hull sharing the local resources. What we see in calder in no modern stadia, all the best young players walking away, and the incumbent fans all proud of their respective heritage despitenone of the three ever having got near winning anything at pro level.

The rejection of mergers is that fans will not want to pay to watch contrived entities.

Well tens of thousands of RL fans have packed out stadia in the world cup to do just that. Are clubs right to pamper to traditional but inadequate falling fanbases? Or does a bigger fanbase await anyone brave enough.

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1/ We have.  This process started for 2008 and with a bit of tweaking has been very successful.

2/ I disagree with the criticisms.  You said you hadn't come across any.  I was just giving one example.

3/ We agree.  The RFL should leave it to the people who know what they're doing rather than needlessly interfering.  Remind me who's the driving force behind the nonsense 3x8?

 I wished to draw a parallel with the world cup to show that this may not be the case. The evidence against is a bit scant at the moment. All we have is a money grabbing exercise based on the fear that the money pot will never grow beyond what 5 or 6 clubs can achieve...

 

....and yet the real success story of the world cup so far is that the interest around every team not just the top 3.

 

..so if a more open minded attitude to the value of RL was taken maybe this nonsense is nothing other than scare mongering by those with little imagination, or more likely interest in taking the sport further domestically.

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The fact that championship clubs think they have a say in the future direction of the game is quite sweet, its a bit like the people who dress up in 60s clothes and think the Beatles are still the big thing. Nice to see them but you know they are slightly bonkers.

 

Seriously, the clubs who control the money control the game. In 1895 it was the money clubs who said enough is enough and its never changed since.

 

 

A pretty arrogant stance if I might say so. The money that these clubs "control" isn't actually theirs in the first instance, it's Sky's. And if they should tell those clubs to change then change they will.

 

You're wrong about 1895 as well, but we won't pursue that here.

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They can do what the heck they want, no skin off my nose and if nobody ever merges I would not care, but the sight of fartown with a rich man and no crowd and Bradford with a crowd and no rich man and halifax still reeling from 2003 makes the job of a few SL clubs dominating ad nauseum all the easier.

Will a challenge ever come from Hull sharing the local resources. What we see in calder in no modern stadia, all the best young players walking away, and the incumbent fans all proud of their respective heritage despitenone of the three ever having got near winning anything at pro level.

The rejection of mergers is that fans will not want to pay to watch contrived entities.

Well tens of thousands of RL fans have packed out stadia in the world cup to do just that. Are clubs right to pamper to traditional but inadequate falling fanbases? Or does a bigger fanbase await anyone brave enough.

If RL had never been played in this country and you wanted to launch the sport you would do it via franchising geographical areas

If sky said here lads go create a new comp for Europe and we will fund it to the tune of £50m pa for 5 years then you create an elite of Wigan saints wire Leeds hull London Cardiff Toulouse Catalans Avignon Calder Swansea with a tri nations eng v Wales v France mid season

That sort of backing and you can hit RU to expand the pool and I could understand that strategy

The smaller traditional clubs of Cas Fev HKR fax wakey Leigh Salford Widnes etc would form a pretty good and competitive division beneath a true elite

The fudge is claiming some of these clubs should be in a protected 'elite' offering nothing to the sport and killing ambitious clubs beneath them. I am proud to say my club is debt free and will not have an overdraft any time now without using administration to achieve that position yet I look up and see no guaranteed way forward clubs walking away from debt and playing in poor stadia- yet the system is working!!!!!!

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A pretty arrogant stance if I might say so. The money that these clubs "control" isn't actually theirs in the first instance, it's Sky's. And if they should tell those clubs to change then change they will.

 

You're wrong about 1895 as well, but we won't pursue that here.

I don't quite get that.

 

It's a bit like saying that my wages aren't my money becasue they belonged to my employer in the first instance, or the money I spent at the shop still belongs to me because it was mine in the first instance. Let's be clear: Sky buy the right to show games and the money they pay belongs to the people who own the rights they have bought, ie the clubs.

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..so if a more open minded attitude to the value of RL was taken maybe this nonsense is nothing other than scare mongering by those with little imagination, or more likely interest in taking the sport further domestically.

 

 

I think we agree that as a sport we have something of a habit of selling ourselves cheap.  Even in the World Cup this is true.  You can't get to see the Commonwealth Games for less than £15 but we've got tickets for the semi-final double header going for as little as £10 once people have got the discount.  It's going to be a tough habit to break out of.

 

I think also most people agree that 'something' is not working in the professional/semi-professional game at the moment.  However, it's hard to be certain whether (for e.g.) falling crowds are down to lack of interest or down to the fact that we're in the fifth year of economic uncertainty and crowds and demand for tickets has fallen in every sport in England, not just rugby league.  Sponsorships for sport are also getting harder to obtain - whatever Chuckles Irvine scribbles in the Times about the lack of SL title sponsor being an outrage.

 

One of the key problems I have with 3x8 - and indeed the whole league restructure plan as put forward - is that it's called a whole game solution but in fact is anything but.  It doesn't address any of the issues with the same names being at the top, and it ignores the player pathways underneath the championship.  The connection to the amateur and community games isn't even covered.  I do have other issues which relate to not really 'getting' what the teams in the 8-team division 2 will really be playing for, and also believing that it will be a cold day in hell before any team that starts in the 2nd twelve gets promotion to the 1st twelve for the next season.  It feels like a gimmick in the same way club call feels like a gimmick.

 

So, who should control the game?  The RFL obviously.  But the RFL have not shown themselves to be secure guardians.  They fudged licencing and have policed it poorly since.  They have allowed themselves to be bullied by the clubs on academies and have made a complete horlicks of duel registration.  Next season they want to do away with the Championship Cup - because it's too complicated for them to run a competition for a season when they don't know what 2015 will look like.  The issue about 2015 being one entirely of their own making.  And then they have allowed themselves to be bullied by BARLA and the NCL, and have failed to bring the community game together.

 

I don't agree with all of the tactics of the SL clubs but I can understand their frustration.  I really don't want them to end up in control of the game.  But from the outside looking in it seems that it's the lack of clear direction from the RFL that has led to this situation.

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Totally agree. For all their faults the RFU keep dreams alive and the sport united. We need a strong France then a strong Wales to have a meaningful European comp, but it wont happen overnight. Until then we need to work out how we keep the media focussed on our international product, if that means two tri nations running simultaneously then so be it.

I like a four year cycle of 2 tri nations, a world cup and a GB tour, we should announce the next 8 years now.

 

 

For a start it is no use compairing our game to Union, for two reason, 1   they have a governing body that have all the right people in the right places, and they have learned a long time ago which Palms to grease ( so to speak ) 2   Union is awash with money compared to League, so they are well capable of subsidising lesser clubs.

 

I agree with you about needing a strong France and Wales, so the way to do that is to Sqaunder money on clubs who have had  100 years to get things right is it ? ( yes that includes the Giants should they get into that position ) It seems to me the fact they have a rich man funding the club, is what gets right up your nose. I am happy to admit when they first got into SL they were not good, but they have built gradually and are now beginning to be competitive, and dispite what you say their crowds are more than double what they were 10 years ago, I think they are trying very hard to copy the Warrington formula, It may well take longer but i think they have a bit more competition.

 

In any event it matters little where they get their money from, as long as they can compete and slowly improve they are a worthwhile SL club. Neither you or me know what plans KD has made for the future of the club, but i know he is no fool.

 

You need to heed Padge and Parky's posts, and get into the real world, You may not like it but It's how it is, and if it does come down to a real power struggle IMO there will only be one winner, The sooner the better for me. The RFL could do with a good shake up, In the words of O Cromwell  " they have sat there far too long for any good they have been doing "  Or something like that. It's been endless new plans that have been going to save the game, only to be scrapped in no time at all.

 

I have a lot more faith in these  so called rebels, and i think they will have their Eye on those who would be King as well.

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A pretty arrogant stance if I might say so. The money that these clubs "control" isn't actually theirs in the first instance, it's Sky's. And if they should tell those clubs to change then change they will.

You're wrong about 1895 as well, but we won't pursue that here.

Just seems to be telling like it is johnny

How is he wrong about 1895?

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I don't quite get that.

 

It's a bit like saying that my wages aren't my money becasue they belonged to my employer in the first instance, or the money I spent at the shop still belongs to me because it was mine in the first instance. Let's be clear: Sky buy the right to show games and the money they pay belongs to the people who own the rights they have bought, ie the clubs.

 

 

And Sky can determine the structure of the competition if they want, which is what I said.

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A pretty arrogant stance if I might say so. The money that these clubs "control" isn't actually theirs in the first instance, it's Sky's. And if they should tell those clubs to change then change they will.

 

You're wrong about 1895 as well, but we won't pursue that here.

I'll take you on with a debate on both points, bring it on.

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And Sky can determine the structure of the competition if they want, which is what I said.

In the same way they can decide the structure of the premier league or England cricket. They offer money we can either accept it or turn it down.

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If RL had never been played in this country and you wanted to launch the sport you would do it via franchising geographical areas

If sky said here lads go create a new comp for Europe and we will fund it to the tune of £50m pa for 5 years then you create an elite of Wigan saints wire Leeds hull London Cardiff Toulouse Catalans Avignon Calder Swansea with a tri nations eng v Wales v France mid season

That sort of backing and you can hit RU to expand the pool and I could understand that strategy

The smaller traditional clubs of Cas Fev HKR fax wakey Leigh Salford Widnes etc would form a pretty good and competitive division beneath a true elite

The fudge is claiming some of these clubs should be in a protected 'elite' offering nothing to the sport and killing ambitious clubs beneath them. I am proud to say my club is debt free and will not have an overdraft any time now without using administration to achieve that position yet I look up and see no guaranteed way forward clubs walking away from debt and playing in poor stadia- yet the system is working!!!!!!

 

I get the point now good sir!

 

I'm all for Superleague clubs who aren't doing it being booted out and ambitious CC clubs being put in their place any day of the week.

 

However name me an ambitious CC club whose ambition is more than talking about it?

 

I suppose there's Faisal Nahaboo RLFC. They could replace Frozen Foods RLFC (skint)

 

As useless as Bradford and Wakefield have proved to be at least they have the crowds if they don't have the rich men. Trouble with most CC clubs is they neither have the crowds OR the rich men.

 

Bottom line for me may be something you agree with which is whoever has the money can have the SL places for without it they ain't gonna do anything.

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The comparison should be championship crowds, Hudds and HKR were poorly supported for most years in the lower tiers, and I think Fax Fev and Leigh are in a Financially better position than a number of SL clubs with Fax and Leigh in better stadia

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In the same way they can decide the structure of the premier league or England cricket. They offer money we can either accept it or turn it down.

 

 

Do you honestly think the second is a viable option?

 

 

(BTW the England cricket team are currently waiting for the Australian test match broadcasters to tell them which review system is going to be used in the Ashes series, so your point is?)

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When are the blinkers going to come off? Cartels are illegal in all aspects of business yet SL get away with it year after year. Closing the SL stifles our chance to expand. You can't be in our club until you've got the money! Get real- this is tantamount to trying to get a job that needs experience but we won't give you the experience and won't employ you until you gain the experience. P&R is the only way to give non SL clubs the chance to progress and stop saying that the CC will get slaughtered- this is only the case when they have their chances to grow nullified; this prevents improving their fan base, finances and ultimately performance.

 

If RL is going to grow it needs to stop this 'boys club' mentality.

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is that why London Welsh had to resort to Legal action to gain their short lived and disastrous 'promotion'. Dreams are great anybody can have them, meaningful ambition now that's anothewr story as the ridiculous and wasteful experience of your cliub in SL showed. How did they make the 'elite' meaningful?

as for unity: are you serious, what was all the hassle about with the heineken Cup?

It must be great on the perch pontificating about stuff you know nothing about, spouting utter carp like that quoted. It's no wonder RL will struggle with folk of your ilk supporting it and HJ being in 'sales'

You both need a dose of real life

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It must be great on the perch pontificating about stuff you know nothing about, spouting utter carp like that quoted. It's no wonder RL will struggle with folk of your ilk supporting it and HJ being in 'sales'

You both need a dose of real life

it must be

 

but it's something I'm not keen on so I don't

 

did London Welsh have to resort to legal action or didn't they? Let's be knowing the truth since you obviously know it

 

was your club's experience in SL wasteful and ridiculous? The record speaks for itself.

 

So how did your club give 'meaning' to the 'elite', especially since they replaced a club that was better than them

 

has there not been a dispute in union about the heineken Cup? maybe I was hallucinating

 

I dream of owning a sea going cabin cruiser, does that entitle me to one?

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When are the blinkers going to come off? Cartels are illegal in all aspects of business yet SL get away with it year after year. Closing the SL stifles our chance to expand. You can't be in our club until you've got the money! Get real- this is tantamount to trying to get a job that needs experience but we won't give you the experience and won't employ you until you gain the experience. P&R is the only way to give non SL clubs the chance to progress and stop saying that the CC will get slaughtered- this is only the case when they have their chances to grow nullified; this prevents improving their fan base, finances and ultimately performance.

 

If RL is going to grow it needs to stop this 'boys club' m1entality.

spot on wirecab.i wish you were running rl and sl  !!!

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When are the blinkers going to come off? Cartels are illegal in all aspects of business yet SL get away with it year after year. Closing the SL stifles our chance to expand. You can't be in our club until you've got the money! Get real- this is tantamount to trying to get a job that needs experience but we won't give you the experience and won't employ you until you gain the experience. P&R is the only way to give non SL clubs the chance to progress and stop saying that the CC will get slaughtered- this is only the case when they have their chances to grow nullified; this prevents improving their fan base, finances and ultimately performance.

 

If RL is going to grow it needs to stop this 'boys club' mentality.

 

 

SL is not a cartel. See http://ec.europa.eu/competition/cartels/overview/

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does this lessen the chances of this ridiculous change in the league structure will happen?

One can only hope

Quite

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Do you honestly think the second is a viable option?

 

 

(BTW the England cricket team are currently waiting for the Australian test match broadcasters to tell them which review system is going to be used in the Ashes series, so your point is?)

 

That's because at then minute the ICC does not itself have technology that all its members can agree on.  It is however working on it so it doesn't need to rely on the host broadcaster.

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Do you honestly think the second is a viable option?

(BTW the England cricket team are currently waiting for the Australian test match broadcasters to tell them which review system is going to be used in the Ashes series, so your point is?)

It's as viable for RL as it is for football or RU or cricket.

My point about cricket is if it wants to stay professional it relays on its TV deal. Not sure of your point though.

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When are the blinkers going to come off? Cartels are illegal in all aspects of business yet SL get away with it year after year. Closing the SL stifles our chance to expand. You can't be in our club until you've got the money! Get real- this is tantamount to trying to get a job that needs experience but we won't give you the experience and won't employ you until you gain the experience. P&R is the only way to give non SL clubs the chance to progress and stop saying that the CC will get slaughtered- this is only the case when they have their chances to grow nullified; this prevents improving their fan base, finances and ultimately performance.

 

If RL is going to grow it needs to stop this 'boys club' mentality.

 

Cartel?

 

What planet are you visiting from.

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The comparison should be championship crowds, Hudds and HKR were poorly supported for most years in the lower tiers, and I think Fax Fev and Leigh are in a Financially better position than a number of SL clubs with Fax and Leigh in better stadia

 

Their finances would look a lot different in SL, and not for the better.

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What i find amusing is all these posts about  how the game could be really going forward if only S League would play the game. What they really mean is that , My club and others could go forward for a short while with the money from the SL. Just why do they need the money from SL to go forward, and how are SL stopping them from going forward now.

 

 Parksider has called it, You either have big crowds and a decent Stadium ( no longer an issue apparently ), Or you have a rich investor, Thats what gets you into SL,  SL is where the money is , It's what Sky pay for , which is what funds the game Mainly.

 It doesn't matter who the clubs are, or where their money comes from, as long as they can survive financially and be compeitive, they will be part of the deal.

 

Talk about people needing to get into the real world, A bunch of men who have invested heavilly in their clubs are never going to be happy to see their earnings, " that is their earnings " squandered with by endless knee jerks from RFL.

 

Thats Life, thats how it is. Maybe it's not altogether how we would like it , Only way to change it is to find another sourse of income,

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