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John Drake

23/11/13 - World Cup Semi Final 1: England v New Zealand (Wembley)

Who will win?   110 members have voted

  1. 1. Who will win?

    • England by 25 points or more
      3
    • England by 19 to 24 points
      1
    • England by 13 to 18 points
      3
    • England by 7 to 12 points
      35
    • England by 1 to 6 points
      22
    • New Zealand by 1 to 6 points
      8
    • New Zealand by 7 to 12 points
      11
    • New Zealand by 13 to 18 points
      16
    • New Zealand by 19 to 24 points
      5
    • New Zealand by 25 points or more
      6

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780 posts in this topic

That was against an Australian team that used the game as a warm up.

 

we scored 4 tries against them at wembley in 2011...what was the excuse then?

 

 

 

ps meant could have been 5 tries...not should have...george burgess was millimeters away

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I've seen plenty of weaknesses in the Kiwi side. Sure at times they have looked brilliant especially now they have a good 7, but Scotland and Samoa both made plenty of yards against them.

Teams have also done ok out wide against them and that is an area where we are strong with Hall as top scorer.

I think this is a 50:50 game as it should be at this stage. Should be a cracker.

Yep you're right.

 

The right hand edge of the Kiwis has leaked a few tries , which is surprising since individually they have good defenders in Whare and RTS.

 

So they're not gelling as a unit.

 

The other problem they have had is not coping with teams that run it on the fifth tackle , the kiwis are too dialed into defending kicks , PNG got a couple  of try's that way.

 

I'd rate the chances of both teams 50 : 50 as well.

 

Englands biggest weakness isn't their playing selection , it's the ill discipline and frustrating errors from what I've seen.

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we scored 4 tries against them at wembley in 2011...what was the excuse then?

 

 

 

ps meant could have been 5 tries...not should have...george burgess was millimeters away

I am not going back through every game or making excuses for any performances.

I am just pointing out that it was Australia's first game in a long time and several players had not played for weeks, some call it rusty, how did England do in their warm up match?

Its a shame that the top teams only meet infrequently, England should have put everything into that first game and the task would have been so much easier.

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its not meant to be easy....

 

 

the winner of this semi final will be far better for the tough game than australia...

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its not meant to be easy....

 

 

the winner of this semi final will be far better for the tough game than australia...

Fiji will give a good account of themselves.

There is always the chance the winner of England and New Zealand may play their final next week and have no Juice come the final.

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Now Brough isn't doing owt can we get him a fake moustache and some tattoo sleeves? Then we'll have a chance!

 

It's all about the kicking game, and I think this is where we'll fall down.

 

1. S Tomkins

2. J Charnley

3. K Watkins

4. L Cudjoe

5. R Hall

6. R Chase

7. K Sinfield

8. J Graham

9. J Roby

10. C Hill

11. S Burgess

12. B Westwood

13. S O'Loughlin

 

14. R Burrow/G Widdop

15. B Ferres

16. L Mossop

17. G Burgess

 

I think it'll be a test too far where the 6, 7 and 14 are concerned.

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Now Brough isn't doing owt can we get him a fake moustache and some tattoo sleeves? Then we'll have a chance!

 

It's all about the kicking game, and I think this is where we'll fall down.

 

1. S Tomkins

2. J Charnley

3. K Watkins

4. L Cudjoe

5. R Hall

6. R Chase

7. K Sinfield

8. J Graham

9. J Roby

10. C Hill

11. S Burgess

12. B Westwood

13. S O'Loughlin

 

14. R Burrow/G Widdop

15. B Ferres

16. L Mossop

17. G Burgess

 

I think it'll be a test too far where the 6, 7 and 14 are concerned.

 

 

I think you are right, I hope you are wrong though.

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I think you are right, I hope you are wrong though.

I forgot to add, I think England have the measure of New Zealand in the forwards however we are prone to making silly mistakes. And if we're constantly penned back in our own half these will be more damaging.

 

But don't under estimate the affect the crowd will have on this match.

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Last WC we had mark calderwood and ade gardener on the wing.

 

Well that's cheered me up no end, that's a frightening wing partnership if i've ever seen one (from an England perspective!)

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Winner of Eng-NZ will win it all...

 

I'm confident of beating NZ

 

The key will be stopping the offload of Kasiona et al. Charnley & Sinfield for France's 1st try were weak. None of that arm tackling nonsense. For this reason, Burgess, S will play in the second row.

 

Stop the offload and you stop Luke jumping out of dummy half.

 

A concern i have (more so again Australia) is that we're constantly short, 3/4 defenders in we're jumping in too much. Could be costly again Thurston

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Speed at the play the ball is paramount for me, we need to get at them at pace, with back up. Its no point playing 1 man rugby . This should create offside penalties or turn their big pack - I haven't seen any team do this to them so far.

 

We need to take full advantage when in possession, no mistakes and a good kicking display (grubber or high ball) and we simply MUST take our chances....and if NZ have an average game... I think we can do it!    my opinion of it anyway.

 

Come on England!

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The only issue with the quick play the balls is we need a strong referee. Waerea-Hargreves is a liability for lying-on, and if only Ben Cummins had the balls to penalise him for it.

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The Kiwis will be able to play a fast or slow game, the speed at the play the ball will not bother the Kiwis.

Kicking for field position and chasers that effectively trap the opposition close to their line will decide this game along with creativity in attack to break the defensive structures.

I think the Kiwis may do this better than England

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what we've gotta remember is the kiwis are'nt australia....they are'nt to be scared of....infact they haven't beaten us here in england for 8 years...

 

 

 

this is a tough challange for the kiwis just as much as it is for us...

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Posted · Hidden by John Drake, November 18, 2013 - No reason given

That was against an Australian team that used the game as a warm up.

 

And here we go again.

 

Is there any end to your lack of self awareness?

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England will win if:

- We restrict the offloads for NZ.

- We play expansive off-the-cuff running rugby (one up stuff isn't going to work this week).

- We minimalise the errors and penalties (easy metres is something we can't afford to give NZ).

 

On another note lads, I'm heading to Wembley with two Union mates, what are the main England chants so we can improve the atmosphere?

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Posted · Hidden by John Drake, November 18, 2013 - No reason given

And here we go again.

 

Is there any end to your lack of self awareness?

Are you saying it was not a warm up game?

 

Do you ever answer any replies to your posts?

That is always the sign of a wind up merchant and not a very good one.

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Posted · Hidden by John Drake, November 18, 2013 - No reason given

Are you saying it was not a warm up game?

 

Do you ever answer any replies to your posts?

That is always the sign of a wind up merchant and not a very good one.

You say whatever you like. 

 

Thanks.

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Several posts removed.

 

Keep the personal stuff OFF here.

 

Next one cops a ban.

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I think there are a few players who have played within themselves so far who need to step up.

 

Tomkins - always looks dangerous, but how many actual clear breaks has he made. Would like to see him more decisive and go for it.

 

Watkins - make better calls in defence from the high kicks - twice he should have let the attacker catch the ball and hit them yet he made half-hearted attempts to catch the ball.

 

Chase - showed plenty of decent touches, but at times trying too hard - similar to Tomkins.

 

Sam Burgess - shown glimpses, but nowhere near his NRL form. Needs to up his tempo.

 

George Burgess - as above.

 

If the above players step up a notch, which they are all more than capable of, then our performance will improve massively. We should not fear the Kiwis. Repsect them yes, not fear them.

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This is going to be close, but England should win.  Based on potential teams, with the better player in bold, Eng should nick it

 

1 - Locke/Tomkins

2 - RTS/Charnley

3 - Whare/Watkins - pretty even.  Before the WC I would have said Watkins, but he hasn't impressed yet

4 - Goodwin/Cudjoe Cudjoe has really impressed in defence and attack.  Really good partnership with Hall.  Goodwin has looked ok against weaker teams so far

5 - Vatuvei/Hall  

6 - Foran/Chase

7 - Johnson/Sinfield

8 - JWH/Graham - Close but JG versatility gets him over the line

9 - Luke/Roby - Close, but Luke is outstanding if NZ get a roll on

10 - Bromwich/Hill - Close again, and prior to the WC would have said Bromwich - but Hill has been outstanding so far

11 - Pritchard/Westwood

12 - SBW/Burgess

13 - Mannering/O'Loughlin

 

14 - Moa/G.Burgess

15 - Taylor/Widdop

16 - FPN/Ferres - Ferres has impressed but FPN still over him

17 - Kasaino/T.Burgess 

 

8 out of the 17 in favour of England, 6 in favour of NZ and 3 matches.

 

It is going to be close, but NZ have looked impressive based on being able to steam roll through opposition and make the offloads. They won't get that with England so will be looking at their 6/7 to breakdown England's defence.  As good as they are, they are no Thurston/Cronk, and I think they will struggle. 

 

It's going to be a real forward battle, and whilst the NZ has great strength in depth (no Eastwood, Matulino in this 17) it's only the 17 on the day that matter.  English forwards are fitter and faster so will prevail in the end.

 

The key is slowing down the rucks and stopping the offloads.  This is where the risk is - giving away penalties for holding down too long.  If England can slow the rucks down without giving penalties then we will win.

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It's gonna be tough but i think we might edge it............I think England will feel they can beat the kiwis at home as they have done in recent years.

 

The problem is i just can't see us getting anywhere near Australia..............not sure if i'd rather england lose a glorious semi final (extra time drop goal or something) than just get comfortably beaten at arms length by Australia in the final.

 

That's what my stupid brain thinks anyway...........my heart say's we'll win the world cup

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There are potentially some intriguing match ups in this contest.

 

Manu Vatuvei is probably not going to play ( groin )

 

 

The Kiwis relied heavily on Manu's heavy running on the kick return  , Jayson Nightingale isn't the same type of player.

 

If it is hard running Kick returns they want then playing Hoffman on that wing would make for an opportunity for Kevin Locke to face his Frenemy Sam Tomkins

 

Tomkins is taking Lockes Club Jersey off him of course , that would be mouth watering If Kevin gets a rare head to head shot at Sam.

 

Tomkins is in another class to Locke , but an out of form Kevin Locke fired up V Tomkins would be a battle within the War worth admission price alone.

 

Sam Burgess V Sonny Bill.

 

Burgess won a unanimous Points decision when these two squared off early in the year , Williams and Burgess are at their peak , can't wait. Williams is a more skill full player all round skill , Burgess is a real strike weapon around the Ruck.

 

Simon Mannering V Sean O'Loughlin , not one many would look to , both players are the glue of their club sides and forwards that are underrated. Neither are flashy players but both teams will rely on them to do a lot of clean up work and both are leaders.

 

Sinfield V Foran ( ignore the numbers on the Jerseys and look at who does what in the halves ) .  Kieran Foran has never reached his club form in a Kiwi Jumper until the Kiwis went away from theif go alone do it all by himself halfback Benji Marshall.

 

Foran without Marshall was a revelation in the losing Kiwi Anzac side , and so far in the WC 2013 he looks very impressive with his kicking game.

 

SinFeild on the other hand though much maligned has been fair.....he's no mug , I like some of his tricky kicks especially the ones he put in V the Kangaroos in the opening game...a lot of the time the Aussies had to let those kicks bounce.

 

 

Rangi Chase V Shaun Johnson :

 

Chase has been unkindly described as a poor mans Benji Marshall ( Tigers fans would tell you Marshall is a poor mans BenJi Marshall these days )

 

Similar players in that they are instinctive halves. Of the two , Johnson looks to have toned down his go it alone with foot work that these two are prone too more so than Chase.

 

The Key when playing Johnson is to get on top of him early....described by James Maloney as a temperamental personality , Johnson is the epitome of a confidence player , take it away and he is a very inexperienced kid out there.

 

Ryan Hall V Roger Tuivasa Sheck. While probably not playing opposite each other both are the pointy tip of the spear.

 

Hall is a champion Winger with  amazing finishing skills , RTS  is the up and comer  who it will be interesting to see how he copes with the pressure of Wembley. 

 

George Burgess is the Impact forward of the two teams then day Light , NZ have a magnificent Prop rotation , but for pure power and quick play the balls....if George holds onto the ball he will make the most impact off the respective benches.

 

The rest of the squads are much of a muchness with NZ having consistency in their forward pack which makes them possibly the strongest of the tournament. While England have players who are the Kiwis equal and superior in the forwards , they haven't showed the Machine like consistency and ruthless controlled aggression , too often a player will throw a head high tackle or mess around in the play the ball , or have poor ball security.

 

All those things are fixable for England and I expect after the way the forwards let England down in the opener  (the Burgi especially) that they will be desperate to play smart footy.

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Really don't know which way this will go, I think man for man both teams are very evenly matched with the Kiwis just having the edge with that half back pairing.  Couple of things that come to mind though... if it's going to be close then it's likely to come down to goal kicking.  This for me is where Sinfield can show his worth, especially from the touchline.  On the other side I don't see Shaun Johnson as anything like as good from far out.

 

In the pack then we're easliy a match for them physically, however they're miles ahead with the off-loading.  Here's the NZ v England Off-load stats from the top twenty players so far >>>>>

 

Rating / name / off-loads

 

1. SBW = 13

5. Luke = 8

7. Kasiano = 7

8. JWH = 7

14. Hill = 6

19. Matulino = 5

 

The key to winning this match is to shut down the NZ off-loading in the tackle.  It causes a constant disruption to the defence, and that's where they kill teams as the ball then moves wide against a disorganised line.  I think I'd be tempted to kick behind Vateuvei in general play as well, then smash him as he comes back - he does drop the ball quite a bit on kick returns and can be fragile.  I guess the main problem with that is that he'll be on the same side of the field as SBW, which means a load of work for Sam if McNamara goes with him opposite.

 

One other thing.  My first name on the team sheet for this match would be Row Burrow on the bench.

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