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John Drake

23/11/13 - World Cup Semi Final 1: England v New Zealand (Wembley)

Who will win?   110 members have voted

  1. 1. Who will win?

    • England by 25 points or more
      3
    • England by 19 to 24 points
      1
    • England by 13 to 18 points
      3
    • England by 7 to 12 points
      35
    • England by 1 to 6 points
      22
    • New Zealand by 1 to 6 points
      8
    • New Zealand by 7 to 12 points
      11
    • New Zealand by 13 to 18 points
      16
    • New Zealand by 19 to 24 points
      5
    • New Zealand by 25 points or more
      6

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

780 posts in this topic

Not sure who made the point about Sam, but it's a long time since he made a genuine break. He's still a great player, but since he was injured halfway through the year he's been quick but nowhere near as destructive. Not that he has needed to be yet, given the world class players around him for club and country.

You are right exiled Wiganer and that is why I would play him at half back rather than full back. Sam has a great passing and distribution game.

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So Walter given the current squad, who would you play at halfback? Would you stick with Rangi or make changes?

1. Tomkins

6. Widdop

7. Sinfield(no one else)

9. Roby

14. Burrow

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New Zealand have not beaten Australia since 2010.

I would have preferred your lot had beaten the Aussies and NZ and England met in the Final.

 

Not because NZ fear the Aussies in big finals , they're the best team on paper ( the spine and the entire back line ) but it would have been good for rugby league to have the also rans take them out of the contest all together :)

 

Sure NZ have struggled to beat England in England.

That's a good start. This NZ team however is their best ever, especially the Forwards and crucially I would rate this halves pairing and better balanced than the Marshall era.

 

Games aren't won on paper or reputations , England will have a big psychological advantage , but this Kiwi side have been getting the ball to the right people at the right times , instead of relying on individual performances.

 

The kiwis are playing well in England this time around. Never mind the opposition , they look happy and confident as a group.

 

That somewhat negates history , especially the form these dudes have enjoyed this season , only Bryson Goodwin and Kevin Locke have looked a step below the rest.

 

That's pretty good for the Kiwis......past sides have been full of duds who hadn't done anything at club level before getting selected by virtue of being all there is.

 

Injury has been kind this campaign , there will be no excuses if England knock us out.

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I have England as warm favorites.

 

The more I think about the relative strengths and weaknesses of the teams it plays out with an England victory in my imagination.

 

New Zealand's danger men are all largely in the middle of the park. Isaac Luke , Frank Pritchard , and the third player to watch Williams all have to spend considerable minutes in the Middle.

 

The problem with that if you are a Kiwi supporter is that England's Engine is world class , in that cauldron , with what is at stake all that's needed to lessen the impact of those three players is outstanding ruck defence , England are class in that department when they play at their best.

 

I think they would have learned their lesson playing the Aussies and the England forwards will focus on shutting NZ down. I believe they will and  that only leaves the threat of Williams on the right edge.

 

By comparison England have Sam Tomkins who can put their three quarter lines against the NZ edge defence. on the right side the Kiwis are shaky , and that is where England look their best against inexperienced defensive edge players.

 

NZ's Left edge has by comparison been solid , largely due to a rare vein of defensive form from Vatuvei who would ordinarily be a liability there.

 

A lot of how effective England will be depends on who NZ replace Manu with. Josh Hoffman is the obvious like for like replacement and he has been playing well on the left wing for the Bronco's.

 

Williams will be good for Two Try's , either scoring them or Try assists , probably not a lot teams can do to stop that , best chance is to go low on Williams and mark up well on his support runners , they unlike Williams are infinitely more matchable man on man.

 

Tomkins is good for two Try's in the same vein , like Williams he makes the three quarter line attack look very special and unplayable. Here's England's advantage , the Kiwis cannot as easily shut down the England edge man for man. Individually Whare and RTS are good defenders but they have been exposed playing on the opposite side the park to their natural left Center / Left Wing roles in the NRL.

 

Ivan Cleary has determined that the Penrith and Auckland Warriors running wide backrower to create an overlap demanded that his only panther ( Whare ) in the team take the right side ( it's working on attack at the cost of the defence ).

 

Big problem when Tomkins and his outside backs take the ball to Whare and RTS , and if England are smart they will go to that play time and time again and stay away from the NZ Middle.

 

If it were me i would have tried RTS at fullback in the lead up , played Hoffman on the Right Wing or Center. The same back line could have been stronger with Williams' right center , Whare and RTS on their natural left side, Hoffman playing right Wing.

 

England for mine will rip the right side of NZ open , in the middle of the park it will be a blood bath with a points victory to the NZd'ers for creativity and not a lot else.

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Posted · Hidden by John Drake, November 19, 2013 - trolling

No they're not, and the game you refer to was at the Millenium Stadium, not Wembley.

 

The back 3 you could make a case for, but our 3/4 aren't at the same level as Australia's.  They have cut loose against weaker opposition which is what you would expect them to do.  On the left there has been scope for the centre to be far more clinical instead he's gone for the glory option, and has been lucky to get away with it.  His goal line defence has also been very weak. 

 

Well Dib, now youve done it! Smearing the prince of centre's, one who is 'complete' as a centre and in every aspect of his game! Can't you think before you write?

 

Sheesh, you must be another Troll, just like me :P .

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I'm not sure why they can't move the England game so it's the later kick-off. I suspect we might get quite a few people leaving before the Australia game starts.

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Posted · Hidden by John Drake, November 19, 2013 - trolling

Sorry Ant but your assesment of you basing your thoughts 'with an open mind' does just not sit true, in fact most people would believe that you have got quite an obsession or should that be a fixation for Leroy, you do come over quite juvenile with your comments on this topic.

 

Hold on there, whoa!! Thats a slating comment to use against the youth of this land................now childish, well that would pass muster more accurately, don't you think?

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I'm not sure why they can't move the England game so it's the later kick-off. I suspect we might get quite a few people leaving before the Australia game starts.

Surely that works both ways? Have the Aus Fiji game in the earlier spot and people will just turn up later for the England game

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Several posts removed.

 

Keep the personal stuff OFF here.

 

Next one cops a ban.

 

More posts removed.

 

Someone didn't listen. :rtfm:

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Surely that works both ways? Have the Aus Fiji game in the earlier spot and people will just turn up later for the England game

If the England game is second the atmosphere would build gradually through the day, by the last 20mins of Fiji/Australia the stadium would be practically full. As it stands if England lose first up there won't be much enthusiasm from most of the crowd for the second game

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If the England game is second the atmosphere would build gradually through the day, by the last 20mins of Fiji/Australia the stadium would be practically full. As it stands if England lose first up there won't be much enthusiasm from most of the crowd for the second game

Yeah, that was pretty much my thinking.

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Interesting that Betfair have NZ at 4/9 favourites, with England priced at 11/4.

 

Definitely worth a punt at that price

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Interesting that Betfair have NZ at 4/9 favourites, with England priced at 11/4.

 

Definitely worth a punt at that price

That's probably priced accurately in my opinion, but I'll definitely be having a big punt on England anyway to add extra excitement on Saturday.

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If the England game is second the atmosphere would build gradually through the day, by the last 20mins of Fiji/Australia the stadium would be practically full. As it stands if England lose first up there won't be much enthusiasm from most of the crowd for the second game

Also, add to that that 1pm is actually a pretty early kick off for the main event in London. There will be a lot of people travelling from the North, and a 1pm kick off is pretty early. Doesn't allow for masses of time for build up and excitement to build.

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I have England as warm favorites.

 

The more I think about the relative strengths and weaknesses of the teams it plays out with an England victory in my imagination.

 

New Zealand's danger men are all largely in the middle of the park. Isaac Luke , Frank Pritchard , and the third player to watch Williams all have to spend considerable minutes in the Middle.

 

The problem with that if you are a Kiwi supporter is that England's Engine is world class , in that cauldron , with what is at stake all that's needed to lessen the impact of those three players is outstanding ruck defence , England are class in that department when they play at their best.

 

I think they would have learned their lesson playing the Aussies and the England forwards will focus on shutting NZ down. I believe they will and  that only leaves the threat of Williams on the right edge.

 

By comparison England have Sam Tomkins who can put their three quarter lines against the NZ edge defence. on the right side the Kiwis are shaky , and that is where England look their best against inexperienced defensive edge players.

 

NZ's Left edge has by comparison been solid , largely due to a rare vein of defensive form from Vatuvei who would ordinarily be a liability there.

 

A lot of how effective England will be depends on who NZ replace Manu with. Josh Hoffman is the obvious like for like replacement and he has been playing well on the left wing for the Bronco's.

 

Williams will be good for Two Try's , either scoring them or Try assists , probably not a lot teams can do to stop that , best chance is to go low on Williams and mark up well on his support runners , they unlike Williams are infinitely more matchable man on man.

 

Tomkins is good for two Try's in the same vein , like Williams he makes the three quarter line attack look very special and unplayable. Here's England's advantage , the Kiwis cannot as easily shut down the England edge man for man. Individually Whare and RTS are good defenders but they have been exposed playing on the opposite side the park to their natural left Center / Left Wing roles in the NRL.

 

Ivan Cleary has determined that the Penrith and Auckland Warriors running wide backrower to create an overlap demanded that his only panther ( Whare ) in the team take the right side ( it's working on attack at the cost of the defence ).

 

Big problem when Tomkins and his outside backs take the ball to Whare and RTS , and if England are smart they will go to that play time and time again and stay away from the NZ Middle.

 

If it were me i would have tried RTS at fullback in the lead up , played Hoffman on the Right Wing or Center. The same back line could have been stronger with Williams' right center , Whare and RTS on their natural left side, Hoffman playing right Wing.

 

England for mine will rip the right side of NZ open , in the middle of the park it will be a blood bath with a points victory to the NZd'ers for creativity and not a lot else.

 

I like your style Smarty and your comments are pretty legible and to the point, however I do think that you are being too kind to the English threequarters in listing them good/strong?

Cudjoe did alright V Oz with his defence, much to my amazement, but he did show glimpses of his poor decision making in defence V Fiji especially.

What I have noted is that all on here have concentrated upon his missing of the winger for his try, but the glaring one for me did not result in a try at all, yet the tackle made by Tomkins and Chase had Cudjoe still standing 5 or 10 yards behind, immobile and doing absolutely nothing to prevent a score when the centre ran up to him and left a decision to be made, as usual, faced with such a situation he froze!

 

I contend that he will be targetted by Foran, taking the ball to him and holding him in limbo with no idea what to do.,This occurred V NZ in the last W/Cup when Marshall mesmerised Atkins in the very same manner, Cudjoe and Atkins both, are culpable on this issue and often prove a liability in such situations.

Foran is the best in the business presently on this type of play and could have a field day on either side of our defencive structure.

 

Hall is our one and only player so far in this comp with any matchable impression being made to the S/Hemi backs, Tomkins has not in my opinion done what you are relating to and like someone else, I too am still waiting for a clean break from him.

I admit he does give the line an injection of pace and his passes are normally very good, but too little is being shown of his defence breaking runs and I too believe a Widdop at F/B, Tomkins at S/O, would benefit England greatly as there is never any injection of flair or pace unless that is, Tomkins arrives on the scene.

 

Warea Hargreaves has been the most emphatic prop of the Season Down under, SBW emerged, eventually, as the most skilful forward there too.

Pritchard is superb especially close to the line and provides well in the tackle, Luke has been brilliant both over here and the entire second half of the NRL season also.

Mannering as you say is vastly under rated and is a very efficient leader without any histrionics displayed, whomever the others in that pack are they too will be very worthy of their places.

 

Finally Vatuvei can, as you say, be a liability with his dropping of the ball and I think that little would be missed with Hoffman replacing him.

Whare has superb footwork and does not rely on the Inglis strength issues to create space, this could even trouble Watkins more.

TVS looks to be very good, in fact better than in the NRL for me ( for obvious reasons) and given good supply will be hard to contain.

Goodwin is competent in the NRL, did well for the Rabbitohs and will be more than a match for Cudjoe I believe.

 

I am going to be in New Zealand for a couple of months in the New Year Smarty, Palmerston N, if you are within that region maybe we could get a meet up and have a pint ( or two) if not keep on writing as your threads are worthwhile reading.    

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The atmosphere in Cardiff was quiet,; hopefully the haka and knock out tension will improve it.

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I have England as warm favorites.

 

The more I think about the relative strengths and weaknesses of the teams it plays out with an England victory in my imagination.

 

New Zealand's danger men are all largely in the middle of the park. Isaac Luke , Frank Pritchard , and the third player to watch Williams all have to spend considerable minutes in the Middle.

 

The problem with that if you are a Kiwi supporter is that England's Engine is world class , in that cauldron , with what is at stake all that's needed to lessen the impact of those three players is outstanding ruck defence , England are class in that department when they play at their best.

 

I think they would have learned their lesson playing the Aussies and the England forwards will focus on shutting NZ down. I believe they will and  that only leaves the threat of Williams on the right edge.

 

By comparison England have Sam Tomkins who can put their three quarter lines against the NZ edge defence. on the right side the Kiwis are shaky , and that is where England look their best against inexperienced defensive edge players.

 

NZ's Left edge has by comparison been solid , largely due to a rare vein of defensive form from Vatuvei who would ordinarily be a liability there.

 

A lot of how effective England will be depends on who NZ replace Manu with. Josh Hoffman is the obvious like for like replacement and he has been playing well on the left wing for the Bronco's.

 

Williams will be good for Two Try's , either scoring them or Try assists , probably not a lot teams can do to stop that , best chance is to go low on Williams and mark up well on his support runners , they unlike Williams are infinitely more matchable man on man.

 

Tomkins is good for two Try's in the same vein , like Williams he makes the three quarter line attack look very special and unplayable. Here's England's advantage , the Kiwis cannot as easily shut down the England edge man for man. Individually Whare and RTS are good defenders but they have been exposed playing on the opposite side the park to their natural left Center / Left Wing roles in the NRL.

 

Ivan Cleary has determined that the Penrith and Auckland Warriors running wide backrower to create an overlap demanded that his only panther ( Whare ) in the team take the right side ( it's working on attack at the cost of the defence ).

 

Big problem when Tomkins and his outside backs take the ball to Whare and RTS , and if England are smart they will go to that play time and time again and stay away from the NZ Middle.

 

If it were me i would have tried RTS at fullback in the lead up , played Hoffman on the Right Wing or Center. The same back line could have been stronger with Williams' right center , Whare and RTS on their natural left side, Hoffman playing right Wing.

 

England for mine will rip the right side of NZ open , in the middle of the park it will be a blood bath with a points victory to the NZd'ers for creativity and not a lot else.

Smartie old boy, who are you trying to kid, that is a great psychological crutch you are putting forward to keep peoples spirits up and possibly, just possibly in the hope that the English boys read it to give them a false sense of security or in the hope they adopt the tactics to suit the interpretation you have of the Kiwi shortcomings and the English Strengths (it is probably more palatable than anything the coach will give them).

 

 

This game is going to be won up front , the forwards who operate in that area will set the platform then it will be up to the half’s to get the wide runners and ¾ ‘s prominent

 

 

I don’t agree with your statement: New Zealand's danger men are all largely in the middle of the park. Isaac Luke , Frank Pritchard , and the third player to watch Williams all have to spend considerable minutes in the Middle.

 

Luke plays down the middle that’s his strength, but as you said in an earlier post that the Kiwi have gone for an attacking backrow, that IMO does not change, what about the other forwards whichever Kearney and Cleary select to start with and from the interchange, the likes of Mannering, Kasiano, FPN, Bromwich, JWH, Moa, Matalino  Eastwood, Glenn and Taylor, I think that you already stated that all of these guy’s can run with power and offload, if that is the case one on one tackling will not avert that threat, England will have to have numbers in each tackle to stop the ball, that brings the players in, If as in other games we are not respectful of possession and give away stupid penalty’s it will be hard to soak up wave after wave of that type of oppression, that being said from the Kiwi point of view it will then be the simple “draw them in and get it out wide” with that I still see SBW attacking right and Pritchard going left, not operating down the middle.

 

Then we have the half’s that is were you (IMHO) have the advantage over us, even if we can come out 50/50 up front, we do not have the personnel at 6 & 7 to perform the required tasks competently enough at this level, against Ireland – as it should have been, no contest, Fiji – probably the best the half’s have ever played together but only in the 2nd half, France – did not keep the momentum going from the previous half against Fiji, and Aus they were OK for 20 mins, but when needed could not step up to either promote and guide their colleagues, individually or collectively.

 

I also think you are better of in both centre positions, but again there is probably not that much in them, and I see the game being won or lost through this channel.

 

In fact, I put it in another thread that if I had both squads to pick from the only inclusions I would have from England are Tomkins, Hall, Burgess and Roby with the latter two starting from the bench.     

 

Perhaps we both have that fear factor you being a Kiwi(?) me being English, in that we both are expecting the other side to be victorious, coming to this conclusion not by our interpretations of analysing our respective teams strengths but of our teams deficiencies, time will tell who’s right and we don’t have to wait long. Roll on Saturday.    

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England can win this with the right team selection.

 

However i do feel this will be a very close game!

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There's one thing I'm sure of, and it's that England will lift their intensity a massive amount. If they can cut out the errors they're in with a fantastic chance. I suspect NZ will kick to both wings frequently, and I think if England can hold out in this area they will win the game.

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Very often the side that wins at Wembley is the one with fluent shape and structure. Big field, big atmosphere and it is largely about controlling and executing plays. For England to win the passing combinations of 9 to 7, 7 to 6, 6 to 1, needs to be absolutely spot on.

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Smartie old boy, who are you trying to kid, that is a great psychological crutch you are putting forward to keep peoples spirits up and possibly, just possibly in the hope that the English boys read it to give them a false sense of security or in the hope they adopt the tactics to suit the interpretation you have of the Kiwi shortcomings and the English Strengths (it is probably more palatable than anything the coach will give them).

 

 

This game is going to be won up front , the forwards who operate in that area will set the platform then it will be up to the half’s to get the wide runners and ¾ ‘s prominent

 

 

I don’t agree with your statement: New Zealand's danger men are all largely in the middle of the park. Isaac Luke , Frank Pritchard , and the third player to watch Williams all have to spend considerable minutes in the Middle.

 

Luke plays down the middle that’s his strength, but as you said in an earlier post that the Kiwi have gone for an attacking backrow, that IMO does not change, what about the other forwards whichever Kearney and Cleary select to start with and from the interchange, the likes of Mannering, Kasiano, FPN, Bromwich, JWH, Moa, Matalino  Eastwood, Glenn and Taylor, I think that you already stated that all of these guy’s can run with power and offload, if that is the case one on one tackling will not avert that threat, England will have to have numbers in each tackle to stop the ball, that brings the players in, If as in other games we are not respectful of possession and give away stupid penalty’s it will be hard to soak up wave after wave of that type of oppression, that being said from the Kiwi point of view it will then be the simple “draw them in and get it out wide” with that I still see SBW attacking right and Pritchard going left, not operating down the middle.

 

Then we have the half’s that is were you (IMHO) have the advantage over us, even if we can come out 50/50 up front, we do not have the personnel at 6 & 7 to perform the required tasks competently enough at this level, against Ireland – as it should have been, no contest, Fiji – probably the best the half’s have ever played together but only in the 2nd half, France – did not keep the momentum going from the previous half against Fiji, and Aus they were OK for 20 mins, but when needed could not step up to either promote and guide their colleagues, individually or collectively.

 

I also think you are better of in both centre positions, but again there is probably not that much in them, and I see the game being won or lost through this channel.

 

In fact, I put it in another thread that if I had both squads to pick from the only inclusions I would have from England are Tomkins, Hall, Burgess and Roby with the latter two starting from the bench.     

 

Perhaps we both have that fear factor you being a Kiwi(?) me being English, in that we both are expecting the other side to be victorious, coming to this conclusion not by our interpretations of analysing our respective teams strengths but of our teams deficiencies, time will tell who’s right and we don’t have to wait long. Roll on Saturday.    

Touche !

 

Not knowing the England team as well as you all , and not being emotionally invested when they play ( with the exception of Tomkins who unfairly as a NZWarriors Fan I want to ' see him do something' every single time ! ) I tend to watch the attacking stuff and not pay a equal heed to their defence , as you say I see the weakness in our team with a critical eye....and from the Keyboard it looks all to easy to pick apart.

Certainly Williams will play right and Pritchard will play Left , but where I see England taking the sting out of those two is the hard running forwards England have making New Zealand tackle , Surely a good place to start is Sam Burgess Running straight at Williams and George Burgess running Straight at Isaac Luke. Pritchard. The Burgess can both play long Minutes. Pritchard is prone to popping a loose pass at the wrong end of the field , he's also a big unit and as such he doesn't clock up many tackles in a game , I'd work that over If I were the English. 

 

I would expect that the big names in the England pack will peak in this game.

 

The Burgess looked a class above their Kangaroo opposites as did Hill when you compare the hard running Big men they are versus the more mobile Australian pack , England had the upper hand when they held the ball / kept it simple. Westwood had no problem mixing it up with the Kangaroos as you would expect , Graham was missing , Ferres has made the pack even stronger going forward.

 

So the attacking forwards the Kiwis have picked , while special , are as prone you would think to hard running opposition in the same Vein the Kangaroos were kept off their Forward game , the Kiwis struggled with the hard running of Samoa while it lasted.

 

I'm not alone in Kiwi land in not rating our outside backs.

 

I don't have the stats to hand ( you know what they say about Stats ) but I read the other day that the England Pack is heavier than the kiwi Pack.

 

Mind you those same stats had Sam Kasiano at a trim 118 kg ( add another two stone ).

 

I'm not alone in kiwi land in admiring the attacking prowess of the English outside backs. 

 

If history tells us one thing , England fear Aussie , they get rattled , and as you say they didn't step up after 20 minutes....for mine they actually handed the game to Aussie through possibly trying too hard and dropping balls.

 

It also didn't help that you were playing against Henry Perenara who awarded Australia the ball every time a magnificent England hit turned it over ( he ruled Knock on by the tackler ).

 

Conversely England hold no deep seated ingrained insecurities about playing NZ. They rightly know they are at least New Zealands equal ( I'm talking psychologically  here before we even talk up the line ups on paper ). 

 

I don't see England getting rattled when NZ put them under pressure in the same way the Kangaroos have that Aura that once they score twice more than you it is over.

 

I can't see Sam Tomkins not looking through the Video and noticing that the Cook Islands went Close to scoring three times in the NZ Right edge.

 

PNG Scored two Tries taking on that Right Edge.

 

Danny Brough threw a cut out ball to send Scotland in against that same Right Edge

 

Samoa ripped the Kiwis apart with hard forward running then putting Big men on Goodwin ( BJ Leilua ) on the left edge missed six tackles or thereabouts.......Williams and Pritchard were tied up a lot by Samoa during that hard running phase , the Kiwi response lost cohesion too.....

 

England only need to Run Sam Burgess at Bryson Goodwin to put the Kiwis in trouble. Tomkins will slice that Right edge apart with his passing game if the Kiwis don't somehow patch up the hole that the Minnows got through. 

 

England have the advantage of having been in the dark place against Australia already , they have the edge of being able to think through the things they wish they had done differently.........this is their moment.

 

You lost by eight points and people keep forgetting that were it not for two freak individual plays ( Inglis ripping the ball from Tomkins ) and Slater getting away from the scrum base off a confusing Perenara rant about player placement in that scrum....

 

Take those two opportunist plays out of that game and factor in that England came back Late and were denied a boder Line Charnley Try........had Perenara ruled correctly when England turned over the ball in the contact.....that game would take very special beating by a kiwi performance.

George Burgess was a finger tip way from scoring the Try of the tournament.

 

As I say I'm not emotionally invested in the English game ( well I will be if you lot make the final ) but the positives from that opener V Aussie have been sold well short in what I read on here if people think England only looked good for 20 minutes.

 

On Paper the Aussies are the best , on the paddock England could have taken them.

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Scrape goose, A Macnamara coached England side with the same halves has played against NZ before you know.

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Scrape goose, A Macnamara coached England side with the same halves has played against NZ before you know.

Yes I know that, that was then, this now. Funny thing about sport, age isn't always and advantage.

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