Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Joe Whitley

Playing the blame game

81 posts in this topic

Exactly. I was laid in bed last night reliving every pass!

Lucky you! I wish I was laid in bed last night reliving every pass, could have done with that to lift my spirits(sort of speak).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking for reasons to criticise any individual after that game is odd in the extreme imo.

There were so many moment that could have/would have changed the game for both teams,its just the way it goes when you have two equally matched teams.

If theres one thing i would have changed during the first half for England,'and i wrote it on twitter at the time,is, when we got a penalty and took the two, i said we should be running this,we've got them on the rack, and i just keep going back to that moment now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking for reasons to criticise any individual after that game is odd in the extreme imo.

There were so many moment that could have/would have changed the game for both teams,its just the way it goes when you have two equally matched teams.

If theres one thing i would have changed during the first half for England,'and i wrote it on twitter at the time,is, when we got a penalty and took the two, i said we should be running this,we've got them on the rack, and i just keep going back to that moment now.

But who is looking for reasons to criticise an individual?

 

In fact your last line is exactly the kind of point we should be discussing, but are being moaned at because it is negative. I;d love to debate the penalty point with you, but I better not!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No individuals are to blame.

 

Collectively, indiscipline cost england.

 

Specifically either side of half time when england went from being 8-0 up to 14-8 behind, 4 points coming from penalty goals.

 

Some penalties you can't avoid (the one in the first 7 minutes against O'Loughlin for a steel when simply making the tackle....just LOL) but the one later in second half when he clearly reefed it in front of the ref was kamikarze, widdop's obstruction again right in front of the ref and not required...we all know about the high shot at the end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I think the first 30 minutes when we had much of the play, we just weren't sharp enough. Strangely I thought our wingers were slightly off their game yesterday, and it is very rare we can say that. Our strike players didn't finish off some breaks like we have become used to.

 

Not quite sharp enough in attack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was simply numb at the hooter yesterday. Part of that was that there was no one to blame. None of the players, not the coach, the weather, not even the ref. Things happen.

As heartbreaking as it was yesterday, and watching it on Sky+ this morning didn't help my mood, we gave our all and just, just came up short.

 

You watched it again, mate? I deleted it from my box almost immediately. Don't want to re-open that wound!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I think the first 30 minutes when we had much of the play, we just weren't sharp enough. Strangely I thought our wingers were slightly off their game yesterday, and it is very rare we can say that. Our strike players didn't finish off some breaks like we have become used to.

 

Not quite sharp enough in attack.

 

I agree Dave. Ryan Hall didn't seem himself, did he? I have been a critic of Kallum Watkins throughout the campaign so far, but I thought he was very dangerous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No individuals are to blame.

 

Collectively, indiscipline cost england.

 

Specifically either side of half time when england went from being 8-0 up to 14-8 behind, 4 points coming from penalty goals.

 

Some penalties you can't avoid (the one in the first 7 minutes against O'Loughlin for a steel when simply making the tackle....just LOL) but the one later in second half when he clearly reefed it in front of the ref was kamikarze, widdop's obstruction again right in front of the ref and not required...we all know about the high shot at the end.

 

I totally agree. What can we do to improve that, though? You'd think O'Loughlin with all his experience wouldn't make that sort of error. A knock-on, fair enough - we're all human - but conceding costly penalties in front of the ref is pretty poor!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking for reasons to criticise any individual after that game is odd in the extreme imo.

There were so many moment that could have/would have changed the game for both teams,its just the way it goes when you have two equally matched teams.

If theres one thing i would have changed during the first half for England,'and i wrote it on twitter at the time,is, when we got a penalty and took the two, i said we should be running this,we've got them on the rack, and i just keep going back to that moment now.

 

Couldn't agree more with that last point. I suppose it's easier said than done though, especially when NZ were taking the two at almost every opportunity. Quite a brave move when points are up for grabs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

England's cruel World Cup exit yesterday nearly brought me to tears (no lie, it's the worst I've felt since Gareth Southgate missed that penalty in Euro '96), and like any other invested fan I was left thinking what might have been.

 

On my Twitter feed, though, I noticed a lot of people trying to assign blame. I am interested to hear what you all think of the following three incidents that could have potentially changed the outcome of the game. Personally, I think all three were 'just one of those things' and wouldn't like to single out anyone for losing the match. It was seriously unfortunate and not what any of the team deserved. 

 

Item #1

George Burgess' late high tackle

Was it careless and stupid or simply a product of the lad working himself to the bone and being too tired to do anything else?

 

Item #2 

Kevin Sinfield's charge off the line

Did it leave a massive gap for Johnson to score or was it a necessity as they were extremely vulnerable anyway?

 

Item #3

Ryan Hall's interception-fumble

Should he have taken it cleanly or left it altogether? Did it make a difference?

 

Blame is too harsh a word after the heroics of yesterday by all the players.

 

But I haven't heard anyone mention a small detail that could have altered the outcome. 

 

Interestingly, before the Fiji v Samoa match at HJ I attended a QA with Freddy Fittler answering questions, and one was who he thought would win the RLWC and why.  He argued there was very little between the 3 teams but what he considered to be an advantage for Australia was the kicking game of Cooper Cronk and  JT.  As he said these guys always nail the right kick at the right time.  I thought about how prophetic this was when NZ got possession for the last set of the match when I was screaming for the ball to be kicked into touch.

 

On about 78:30 England got to the last tackle on just about the 1/2 way and, for me, Sinfield chose the wrong kick option.  The ball should have been in to touch on the right of the pitch or kicked dead in goal.  A scrum would have wasted 20 seconds, it would also have allowed England to get some air in the lungs and to gather thoughts for a final minute.  In my opinion if he takes the correct kick option the kiwis wouldn't even have had a full set of 6 to score.  I think CC/JT would have nailed this kick had Australia been in this position.

On such things to games get away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't blame anyone from the England team for the loss but that was a schoolboy error or a brain explosion from Sinfield's to shot up that quick and not making the tackle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But who is looking for reasons to criticise an individual?

 

In fact your last line is exactly the kind of point we should be discussing, but are being moaned at because it is negative. I;d love to debate the penalty point with you, but I better not!

Perhaps its just the cynic in me that thinks,once a thread 'like this one' is opened,it denigrates into a thread were some posters see another opportunity to have a go at players from other clubs that they dont like.

Would you have taken the two?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps its just the cynic in me that thinks,once a thread 'like this one' is opened,it denigrates into a thread were some posters see another opportunity to have a go at players from other clubs that they dont like.

Would you have taken the two?

I was ok with the two when they took it as we had the 6 point lead. We had passed up on another 2 points (from a distance) so I don't think we were playing negatively so I had no issue with it.

In general I'm a believer of running the penalties, my team (Wire) do it and it often works for us, but when NZ won due to penalties it is hard to say taking 2 is the wrong thing to do as it won it for them!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No blame for anyone from me. Those lads gave everything they had. You win as a team and you lose as a team. One of the most exciting games it has been my pleasure to watch in my forty years of watching RL.

What won it for NZ was a fantastic piece of skill and athletiscism from the NZ player to keep the ball alive when to all the world it looked like the ball was going out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

England's cruel World Cup exit yesterday nearly brought me to tears (no lie, it's the worst I've felt since Gareth Southgate missed that penalty in Euro '96), and like any other invested fan I was left thinking what might have been.

 

On my Twitter feed, though, I noticed a lot of people trying to assign blame. I am interested to hear what you all think of the following three incidents that could have potentially changed the outcome of the game. Personally, I think all three were 'just one of those things' and wouldn't like to single out anyone for losing the match. It was seriously unfortunate and not what any of the team deserved. 

 

Item #1

George Burgess' late high tackle

Was it careless and stupid or simply a product of the lad working himself to the bone and being too tired to do anything else?

 

Item #2 

Kevin Sinfield's charge off the line

Did it leave a massive gap for Johnson to score or was it a necessity as they were extremely vulnerable anyway?

 

Item #3

Ryan Hall's interception-fumble

Should he have taken it cleanly or left it altogether? Did it make a difference?

A. Not either. Players aren't robots and sometimes make mistakes. Very good players make fewer, but they still make them. Suppose NZ knocked on on the first possession straight afterwards? No-one would have remembered the penalty at all.

B. They'd likely have scored anyway. If he'd made the tackle, we'd have won.

C. Ditto. If he'd missed it, they were in. If he'd caught it...

Blame necessitates hindsight, which none of those players had access to.

Surely what we want from a World Cup is that the best team win it, the best 2 contest the final, the bet 4 contest the semi- finals etc. We got exactly that. NZ and England are 2 quite evenly matched sides but NZ are probably slightly better overall, as reflected in the RLIF rankings, with Australia way out in front. Playing at Wembley maybe evened it out a bit more. Our kicking game wasn't great yesterday, just lots of fairly aimless up and unders. Maybe that was the difference.

Funnily, though, at no point yesterday did either I or my girlfriend think we would win. Even in those last few frantic minutes we both thought NZ would score and pinch it. The difference between the merely good and the simply great is that the great can do it when it really matters. NZ did. England could not.

Let's not forget that England have had a very mediocre tournament. A shock loss to Italy pre-tournament, a fairly routine loss to Australia, 3 good 20 minute spells against lesser opposition amid some very average stuff and then yesterday's loss. Won 3, lost 3. Hardly WC winning potential.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blame is too harsh a word after the heroics of yesterday by all the players.

 

But I haven't heard anyone mention a small detail that could have altered the outcome. 

 

Interestingly, before the Fiji v Samoa match at HJ I attended a QA with Freddy Fittler answering questions, and one was who he thought would win the RLWC and why.  He argued there was very little between the 3 teams but what he considered to be an advantage for Australia was the kicking game of Cooper Cronk and  JT.  As he said these guys always nail the right kick at the right time.  I thought about how prophetic this was when NZ got possession for the last set of the match when I was screaming for the ball to be kicked into touch.

 

On about 78:30 England got to the last tackle on just about the 1/2 way and, for me, Sinfield chose the wrong kick option.  The ball should have been in to touch on the right of the pitch or kicked dead in goal.  A scrum would have wasted 20 seconds, it would also have allowed England to get some air in the lungs and to gather thoughts for a final minute.  In my opinion if he takes the correct kick option the kiwis wouldn't even have had a full set of 6 to score.  I think CC/JT would have nailed this kick had Australia been in this position.

On such things to games get away.

 

Absolutely brilliant point. I was shouting at the TV telling them to do just that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't blame anyone from the England team for the loss but that was a schoolboy error or a brain explosion from Sinfield's to shot up that quick and not making the tackle.

 

Do you not think they would have gone in out wide if Sinfield had stayed put?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A. Not either. Players aren't robots and sometimes make mistakes. Very good players make fewer, but they still make them. Suppose NZ knocked on on the first possession straight afterwards? No-one would have remembered the penalty at all.

B. They'd likely have scored anyway. If he'd made the tackle, we'd have won.

C. Ditto. If he'd missed it, they were in. If he'd caught it...

Blame necessitates hindsight, which none of those players had access to.

Surely what we want from a World Cup is that the best team win it, the best 2 contest the final, the bet 4 contest the semi- finals etc. We got exactly that. NZ and England are 2 quite evenly matched sides but NZ are probably slightly better overall, as reflected in the RLIF rankings, with Australia way out in front. Playing at Wembley maybe evened it out a bit more. Our kicking game wasn't great yesterday, just lots of fairly aimless up and unders. Maybe that was the difference.

Funnily, though, at no point yesterday did either I or my girlfriend think we would win. Even in those last few frantic minutes we both thought NZ would score and pinch it. The difference between the merely good and the simply great is that the great can do it when it really matters. NZ did. England could not.

Let's not forget that England have had a very mediocre tournament. A shock loss to Italy pre-tournament, a fairly routine loss to Australia, 3 good 20 minute spells against lesser opposition amid some very average stuff and then yesterday's loss. Won 3, lost 3. Hardly WC winning potential.

 

A. Good point.

B. I agree.

C. Again, I agree.

 

I suppose that's the most realistic way of looking at it but I definitely started to think we'd done it just before the high tackle. Though a part of me was always doubting it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No blame for anyone from me. Those lads gave everything they had. You win as a team and you lose as a team. One of the most exciting games it has been my pleasure to watch in my forty years of watching RL.

What won it for NZ was a fantastic piece of skill and athletiscism from the NZ player to keep the ball alive when to all the world it looked like the ball was going out.

 

And that was the difference in the end. Absolutely mind-blowing bit of skill and timing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I totally agree. What can we do to improve that, though? You'd think O'Loughlin with all his experience wouldn't make that sort of error. A knock-on, fair enough - we're all human - but conceding costly penalties in front of the ref is pretty poor!

 

Penalties generally happen when a team is under pressure or have been starved of posession. They need to handle pressure better but also be smarter.

 

When I say smarter - England got themselves into that cycle of being starved of posession and under pressure and then through desperation conceding penalties because of a couple of very cheap, avoidable penalties at the start. One of them O'Loughlin was penalised for holding down. The nz player was getting up to play the ball and O'loughlin still had his hands on him so the NZ player took a dive and because SOL was in contact with him the ref gave a penalty. Had SOL simply moved his hands away the nz player wouldn't have had the opportunity to milk the pen.

 

It's those little things........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

But I haven't heard anyone mention a small detail that could have altered the outcome

 

On about 78:30 England got to the last tackle on just about the 1/2 way and, for me, Sinfield chose the wrong kick option.  The ball should have been in to touch on the right of the pitch or kicked dead in goal.  A scrum would have wasted 20 seconds, it would also have allowed England to get some air in the lungs and to gather thoughts for a final minute.  In my opinion if he takes the correct kick option the kiwis wouldn't even have had a full set of 6 to score.  I think CC/JT would have nailed this kick had Australia been in this position.

On such things to games get away.

I think in fairness that several people have mentioned this. Neither myself nor my girlfriend could believe this at the time, but we weren't under the pressure that the kicker was. Look at the pass way over Nightingale's head that went into touch (on the second tackle?). Even seemingly simple things can become difficult. If he'd put it in touch, we might have won, but we might have won if we'd done any number of other things differently. The permutations are endless.

In the words of Boris Johnson 'if we had some ham, we could have ham and eggs, if we had some eggs'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blame is too harsh a word after the heroics of yesterday by all the players.

 

But I haven't heard anyone mention a small detail that could have altered the outcome. 

 

Interestingly, before the Fiji v Samoa match at HJ I attended a QA with Freddy Fittler answering questions, and one was who he thought would win the RLWC and why.  He argued there was very little between the 3 teams but what he considered to be an advantage for Australia was the kicking game of Cooper Cronk and  JT.  As he said these guys always nail the right kick at the right time.  I thought about how prophetic this was when NZ got possession for the last set of the match when I was screaming for the ball to be kicked into touch.

 

On about 78:30 England got to the last tackle on just about the 1/2 way and, for me, Sinfield chose the wrong kick option.  The ball should have been in to touch on the right of the pitch or kicked dead in goal.  A scrum would have wasted 20 seconds, it would also have allowed England to get some air in the lungs and to gather thoughts for a final minute.  In my opinion if he takes the correct kick option the kiwis wouldn't even have had a full set of 6 to score.  I think CC/JT would have nailed this kick had Australia been in this position.

On such things to games get away.

It's a while back now, but didn't Australia do this to England at Cardiff in the opener? They slowed the game down by using the touchline.

 

I think this was the closest thing we had to a clanger. High tackles happen, but a choice was made not to kick into touch, and tbh at that stage our defence was ragged.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you not think they would have gone in out wide if Sinfield had stayed put?

 

 

They had the numbers, which is why sinfield shot out. If sinfield held They'd have drawn the man and passed, the winger would have go in unopposed and improved the angle slightly to be only abit worse than where the winning kick was taken. Then they'd have converted.

 

NZ just set the play up perfectly. They could have happened in the first 10 minutes and england may not have stopped it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are always if onlys when our team loses.  If only Westwood had put the ball AND his hand over the try line; if only O'Loughlin had caught that pass on the way to running under the sticks; if only Hall's interception had worked (it was so close) then a high shot and missed tackle in the final seconds of the game wouldn't have mattered.  We had two clear chances to increase the gap between us and NZ (and one more remote chance, ie the Hall interception attempt) but we didn't take them.  NZ had one chance to put an unassailable lead on us and they took it.  Ultimately, that was the difference between us.  The team which has what it takes to finish off its chances wins.  And so it was.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you not think they would have gone in out wide if Sinfield had stayed put?

I think they would have had a good chance, however to go in in the corner it means two or three perfect passes, and we saw throughout the game that England's scrambling defence out wide had been brilliant. But, had Sinfield made that tackle, he would have been the hero. He wasn't good enough to make it though and we lose the game. It was a risk, probably a calculated one, but it didn't come off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



Rugby League World - June 2017

League Express - Mon 17th July 2017