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Joe Whitley

Playing the blame game

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They had the numbers, which is why sinfield shot out. If sinfield held They'd have drawn the man and passed, the winger would have go in unopposed and improved the angle slightly to be only abit worse than where the winning kick was taken. Then they'd have converted.

 

NZ just set the play up perfectly. They could have happened in the first 10 minutes and england may not have stopped it.

That's not exactly how I see it.

 

Just watched it back again and England have 4 defenders on that side of the ruck versus 4 attackers. One of the defenders is an absolutely knackered George Burgess who was very slow getting into position, but he was a body in the way. Sinfield actually comes out to attack the first receiver which pulls in the centre and winger. Had he held, it would have been 4 on 4.There was still plenty of space for them to work a gap, but there was no clear overlap until the England defenders move out of their positions.

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There are always if onlys when our team loses.  If only Westwood had put the ball AND his hand over the try line; if only O'Loughlin had caught that pass on the way to running under the sticks; if only Hall's interception had worked (it was so close) then a high shot and missed tackle in the final seconds of the game wouldn't have mattered.  We had two clear chances to increase the gap between us and NZ (and one more remote chance, ie the Hall interception attempt) but we didn't take them.  NZ had one chance to put an unassailable lead on us and they took it.  Ultimately, that was the difference between us.  The team which has what it takes to finish off its chances wins.  And so it was.

Just imagine the difference had Hall held onto that ball. The roof would have come off instead of the deafening silence! Inches in this game.

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Just imagine the difference had Hall held onto that ball. The roof would have come off instead of the deafening silence! Inches in this game.

It would have been incredible in there! 

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Just imagine the difference had Hall held onto that ball. The roof would have come off instead of the deafening silence! Inches in this game.

 

Similarly if Sinfield had latched onto Johnson in those dying seconds. He may have been knighted!

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johnson beat england with a tremendously skillful try 20 seconds from the end of the game that was the difference.

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sinfields decision to shoot out of the line may have been the right one, but when he failed to make the tackle it became the wrong one. in that situation you must make the tackle, he didn't.

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A. Burgess's first contact with the Kiwi was on his raised arm and then it made contact with the head. It wasn't stupid or lazy just one of those things that happen in a match.

B. Sinfield running out of the line could have worked for us but on this occasion it went against us but it is something that coaches tell young kids not to do. If he hadn't done it I am not sure a try would have been scored but if it was it would have been in the corner with a more difficult kick to follow.

C. On another day Hall would have managed to hang on to that difficult interception and it would have been all over.

All swings and roundabouts now.

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sinfields decision to shoot out of the line may have been the right one, but when he failed to make the tackle it became the wrong one. in that situation you must make the tackle, he didn't.

 

The end was almost like a Shakespearian tragedy. The much maligned Kevin Sinfield probably had the best 78 minutes of his International career and set up 2 fantastic tries. He then makes an error on the last play kick on 78m. 

 

This guy is such an intelligent footballer it could well have been on his mind as the Kiwis moved upfield. I was right behind Sinfield and he spotted the floating ball to Johnson straight away. In a way his quick thinking was his undoing as he tried to race up and close the play. There comes the ironic tragedy as the tired 33 year-old make-shift half back tried to race up on the 23 year-old speedster. Sinfield was never quick (even in his prime) and could not quite get there, the young genius skips around him and breaks England's hearts. The last conversion even rubbed in the missed goal by Sinfield earlier in the game. 

 

I am sure it will have crushed Sinfield and another terrible Wembley memory for him. He is strong and will pick himself up but it was a tough break - no-one's fault.

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The end was almost like a Shakespearian tragedy. The much maligned Kevin Sinfield probably had the best 78 minutes of his International career and set up 2 fantastic tries. He then makes an error on the last play kick on 78m. 

 

This guy is such an intelligent footballer it could well have been on his mind as the Kiwis moved upfield. I was right behind Sinfield and he spotted the floating ball to Johnson straight away. In a way his quick thinking was his undoing as he tried to race up and close the play. There comes the ironic tragedy as the tired 33 year-old make-shift half back tried to race up on the 23 year-old speedster. Sinfield was never quick (even in his prime) and could not quite get there, the young genius skips around him and breaks England's hearts. The last conversion even rubbed in the missed goal by Sinfield earlier in the game. 

 

I am sure it will have crushed Sinfield and another terrible Wembley memory for him. He is strong and will pick himself up but it was a tough break - no-one's fault.

 

 

That's not exactly how I see it.

 

Just watched it back again and England have 4 defenders on that side of the ruck versus 4 attackers. One of the defenders is an absolutely knackered George Burgess who was very slow getting into position, but he was a body in the way. Sinfield actually comes out to attack the first receiver which pulls in the centre and winger. Had he held, it would have been 4 on 4.There was still plenty of space for them to work a gap, but there was no clear overlap until the England defenders move out of their positions.

 

I tend to agree with Wjct. On TV, there was a clear 4 on 3 overlap. G. Burgess was shot and I doubt he would have been able to cover in defence.

 

When FPN makes the pass from dummy-half, the ball takes ages to reach Johnson. He then just sidesteps Sinfield, accelerates, sidesteps Burgess and scores.

 

My point is, I think either way NZ scores. One can't diminish the brilliance of a player at a key moment of game by blaming Sinfield or any other player. They all made a decision based on what they saw and could do: attackers and defenders alike.

 

That's the beauty of sport although it sucks to be on the receiving end of such a crushing blow.

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Have a look at Goodwin's tiny knock-on at 78:42 mins. If that had've been picked up, this thread wouldn't have been required.....

You didn't see it, did you? Go on, see for yourself and let me know what you think!;

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I tend to agree with Wjct. On TV, there was a clear 4 on 3 overlap. G. Burgess was shot and I doubt he would have been able to cover in defence.

 

When FPN makes the pass from dummy-half, the ball takes ages to reach Johnson. He then just sidesteps Sinfield, accelerates, sidesteps Burgess and scores.

 

My point is, I think either way NZ scores. One can't diminish the brilliance of a player at a key moment of game by blaming Sinfield or any other player. They all made a decision based on what they saw and could do: attackers and defenders alike.

 

That's the beauty of sport although it sucks to be on the receiving end of such a crushing blow.

As Johnson catches the ball, G Burgess is almost directly in front of him. I agree that he was shot and wouldn't have covered and they probably would have worked an overlap, but there wasn't actually one there until Sinfield came out of the line. Not saying they wouldn't have scored, but they (and us) had many overlaps during the game that weren't converted.

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Have a look at Goodwin's tiny knock-on at 78:42 mins. If that had've been picked up, this thread wouldn't have been required.....

You didn't see it, did you? Go on, see for yourself and let me know what you think!;

Nothing there mate.

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Nothing there mate.

You don't think? Pretty sure watching from the touchline that he fumbles whilst gaining his feet to play the ball. TV inconclusive.

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You don't think? Pretty sure watching from the touchline that he fumbles whilst gaining his feet to play the ball. TV inconclusive.

Just watched the replay and he moves his arm down with the ball but then pulls it back up while he gains his feet. The ball doesn't touch the ground and he doesn't lose it.

 

Just watched it on a big screen in HD, definitely no knock on.

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There comes the ironic tragedy as the tired 33 year-old make-shift half back tried to race up on the 23 year-old speedster. Sinfield was never quick (even in his prime) and could not quite get there

Funny how his physical attributes were thought sufficient, I.e. not mentioned when he created 2 tries but worth mentioning when he failed to stop one? I don't think any single defender would have stopped Johnson in that position, not Tomkins, Cudjoe, Westwood stc. His initial backward movement to evade Sinfield's lunge was simply devastating and opened up enough space for the score.

We lost. Let it go. Move on.

PS. I would argue that he is still in his prime. Some of his performances for Leeds last season were truly extraordinary. His cover tackling is phenomenal.

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I don't blame anyone from the England team for the loss but that was a schoolboy error or a brain explosion from Sinfield's to shot up that quick and not making the tackle.

He did not run out of the line. Two players on his outside went with him. Those inside him stood almost still until it was too late. They were probably exhausted.

No one player or incident lost the game. If more chances had been taken and fewer mistakes made them we would have won. But every game ever played is like that.

Just have to get over it and move on.

I'm starting to think about Saturday now which is good.

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Funny how his physical attributes were thought sufficient, I.e. not mentioned when he created 2 tries but worth mentioning when he failed to stop one? I don't think any single defender would have stopped Johnson in that position, not Tomkins, Cudjoe, Westwood stc. His initial backward movement to evade Sinfield's lunge was simply devastating and opened up enough space for the score.

We lost. Let it go. Move on.

PS. I would argue that he is still in his prime. Some of his performances for Leeds last season were truly extraordinary. His cover tackling is phenomenal.

 

Sorry Gav but don't agree. I do love Sinfield as a player but he is filling 7 and how can you not bring up pace when he is up against Shaun Johnson (that was the comparison). Sinfield played brilliantly but I was highlighting the speedy young gun against the makeshift 33-year-old 7. Watch the first half back again. When Sinfield breaks through he has no alternative but to try to run through Locke. Johnson would have stepped him with speed. If he had made the tackle at the end he would have been a hero. Tiny little things decide matches. Am gutted both for him and for England.

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As Johnson catches the ball, G Burgess is almost directly in front of him. I agree that he was shot and wouldn't have covered and they probably would have worked an overlap, but there wasn't actually one there until Sinfield came out of the line. Not saying they wouldn't have scored, but they (and us) had many overlaps during the game that weren't converted.

 

Fair enough.

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Players did make mistakes.

 

Are we not allowed to discuss them?

 But you're picking on Sinfield again - you never blame anyone else. Sinfield did charge out of the line, but then so did two others with him, why didn't they stay back to cover?

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Surely it was all McNamara's fault? 

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But you're picking on Sinfield again - you never blame anyone else. Sinfield did charge out of the line, but then so did two others with him, why didn't they stay back to cover?

you are mistaking me with somebody else.

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The problem with this thread is that it overlooks all the positive things that each player did. For example:

Sinfield - might have missed a crucial tackle and conversion, but was also a key part of two of England's tries.

O'Loughlin - may have gave away a silly penalty or two, and made a couple of errors, but he also got through a huge amount of defensive work and scored a try.

George Burgess - gave away a crucial penalty at the end, but also wore down and dominated the NZ pack in the collision when he was on the pitch.

Widdop - obstructed a NZ player at a key moment, but also gave the most effective performance of an England stand off for many a year.

Tomkins - made one big error, but was solid defensively and took some very difficult high balls under intense pressure.

Westwood - failed to get the ball down when it would have killed the game, but was a disruptive presence in attack and defence.

Hall - guilty of poor positioning for one try and could have killed the game with a crucial intercept, but that very same 'missed' opportunity was one of a number of occasions he saved tries.

At the end of the day there is only one person I blame for the defeat....................no, not McNamara...

The real villian of the piece is Shaun Johnson's mother and the choices she made a couple of decades ago.

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I dont think the good stuff is being ignored. Everybody has said how well England played and how proud they are of them and that this was one of the best Tests ever seen.

What this thread is about is key turning points - what cintributed most to the loss. I think it may have been better not to have the word blame in the thread title as it has made people defensive, but surely discussing key turning points after a game is part of the fun, as is the whole 'what if' conversation.

I personally thought Sinfield and O'Loughlin and G Burgess made crucial 'silly' errors but I also thought they were outstanding and three of the best players on the park.

Ultimately, we had a 4 point lead with 2 mins left and we had the ball. We weren't good enough to close the game out and we need to learn from it.

The one crucial play that I dont think anybody would do again was the kick down the throat of the fullback.

High tackles and knock ons are genuine match errors, nobody chooses to do them.

The kick gave time for two sets of six instead of one, that was the crucial turning point. Im sure Sinfield wouldnt do that again.

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Indeed, the kick infield was what did for us in the end. When I finally arrived back home last night I forced myself to watch the last 2 minutes, and someone in the commentary box (Nobby?) can be heard saying 'put it out, put it out'. That's what everyone thought was going to happen. I'd just finished congratulating England on bringing the ball over to the side on the last so it would be easy to find touch and take all the momentum out of the last minute. Then Sinfield makes the biggest wrong decision ever.

I really like Sinfield, and would challenge anyone to name a player who has done as much for his club over so long a period, but he was in the team because he's our leader and captain, and if there was one player who should have been making the right decision at a crucial point in the game, it was him.

So, sorry, and I'm sure Kev will be hurting (because he had played the game of his live in an England jersey up to that point), but he lost us the game.

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