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JohnM

Scottish Independence Referendum

Should Scotland be an independent country?   55 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Scotland be an independent country?

    • Yes
      27
    • No
      28

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The latter. This is the question: "Should Scotland be an independent country?"

Thanks craig

So who's winning?

I might have asked before so please be tolerant

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Thanks craig

So who's winning?

I might have asked before so please be tolerant

The "no" campaign.  Based entirely on a bitterly negative campaign that can be summarised as "a horde of evil trolls will kill you and eat your souls if you vote yes!"  The "no" campaign have about a 9-15% lead depending on the polls you use but then the "yes" campaign have really not started in earnest yet.  The "yes" campaign have the hard job of convincing people to want to change and I'm not convinced they'll be able to do so, that said the "no" campaign is just not making any friends in Scotland with their negativity.

 

There are repercussions for England as well, for example the recent shipyard review essentially shut down Portsmouth as a naval ship building facility while keeping the Scottish ones going, albeit at a reduced capacity.  That's about as bluntly political as you can get, a genuine bribe to the Scottish people to stay in the UK at the cost of English jobs while doing the damnedest to not give the SNP a PR "win" of Scottish jobs losses.  I've little doubt that the Scottish jobs would have gone but for the independence debate.

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Has there been much talk about the Scottish Navy?  As most of  Scotland's assets are out in the North Sea I'd imagine they'd need quite a robust force.

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Has there been much talk about the Scottish Navy?  As most of  Scotland's assets are out in the North Sea I'd imagine they'd need quite a robust force.

Yes.  The independence white paper does cover the navy split.  It shows a few bits where they'll need to spend money, e.g. on a couple of new patrol craft, but Scotland is fairly well set in terms of naval infrastructure with the Clyde bases and also Rosyth.

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The "no" campaign. Based entirely on a bitterly negative campaign that can be summarised as "a horde of evil trolls will kill you and eat your souls if you vote yes!" The "no" campaign have about a 9-15% lead depending on the polls you use but then the "yes" campaign have really not started in earnest yet. The "yes" campaign have the hard job of convincing people to want to change and I'm not convinced they'll be able to do so, that said the "no" campaign is just not making any friends in Scotland with their negativity.

There are repercussions for England as well, for example the recent shipyard review essentially shut down Portsmouth as a naval ship building facility while keeping the Scottish ones going, albeit at a reduced capacity. That's about as bluntly political as you can get, a genuine bribe to the Scottish people to stay in the UK at the cost of English jobs while doing the damnedest to not give the SNP a PR "win" of Scottish jobs losses. I've little doubt that the Scottish jobs would have gone but for the independence debate.

Thanks for that fine analysis craig

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Yes.  The independence white paper does cover the navy split.  It shows a few bits where they'll need to spend money, e.g. on a couple of new patrol craft, but Scotland is fairly well set in terms of naval infrastructure with the Clyde bases and also Rosyth.

England gets the boats, Scotland gets the oars.

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Yes. The independence white paper does cover the navy split. It shows a few bits where they'll need to spend money, e.g. on a couple of new patrol craft, but Scotland is fairly well set in terms of naval infrastructure with the Clyde bases and also Rosyth.

Scotland already has a 'navy' which it uses for fishery protection it uses a version if the isles class ocean patrol vessel

It would be easy and cheap to adapt oil rig support vessels for this role in the same way that the Royal Navy did for interim Falklands patrol vessels

Most surveillance of oil fields is done from the air

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Scotland already has a 'navy' which it uses for fishery protection it uses a version if the isles class ocean patrol vessel

It would be easy and cheap to adapt oil rig support vessels for this role in the same way that the Royal Navy did for interim Falklands patrol vessels

Most surveillance of oil fields is done from the air

To be fair to the SNP, they've not assumed they'll get to keep those vessels, they've divvied up the Navy assets proportionally and have worked out that they'll have to either buy or build more patrol vessels to cover those they don't get as part of the split.  I suppose it'll come down to negotiation though, e.g. we'll give you the patrol vessels if you sign over your share of the nuclear missile sub fleet.

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do  the Clyde bases belong to them, though?  are they claiming everything in Scotland as theirs?

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do  the Clyde bases belong to them, though?  are they claiming everything in Scotland as theirs?

Why not?  It's Scottish soil, after all.  The actual ownership is BAE Systems but it's Scottish jobs that are the important factor.

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I don't have any real opinion on this matter and haven't really been following it too closely, but in the last couple of days, on the news, there has been about three or four 'independent experts' from various bodies like the  IMF and other fiscal study groups who have all said the same thing, if Scotland leave the UK, then it will cost them, big time and Salmond is quoting figures that only suit his argument.

I had to smile after one bulletin, after some professor from one august organisation had been on saying how much Scotland would lose, they went over to a market trader on a Scottish market who said Scotland had lots of North Sea oil and that would be great as they would all be better off financially, so he is voting 'yes'. 

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I don't have any real opinion on this matter and haven't really been following it too closely, but in the last couple of days, on the news, there has been about three or four 'independent experts' from various bodies like the  IMF and other fiscal study groups who have all said the same thing, if Scotland leave the UK, then it will cost them, big time and Salmond is quoting figures that only suit his argument.

I had to smile after one bulletin, after some professor from one august organisation had been on saying how much Scotland would lose, they went over to a market trader on a Scottish market who said Scotland had lots of North Sea oil and that would be great as they would all be better off financially, so he is voting 'yes'. 

That's about it.

 

Alex Salmond has a background in oil this is what Scottish nationalism is built on.

 

The only thing is that it will eventually run out and this is something not widely understood. Not to mention that some of it would belong to England and there is the danger of Northern Isles secession.

 

This kind of thing being pointed out seems to be the basis of ckn's / John Drake's "patronising stuff". Only thing is that the Scottish electorate seems to believe it.

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That's about it.

 

Alex Salmond has a background in oil this is what Scottish nationalism is built on.

 

The only thing is that it will eventually run out and this is something not widely understood. Not to mention that some of it would belong to England and there is the danger of Northern Isles secession.

 

This kind of thing being pointed out seems to be the basis of ckn's / John Drake's "patronising stuff". Only thing is that the Scottish electorate seems to believe it.

Of course the "no" campaign is being patronising.  Take, for example, Alistair Darling's media interviews immediately after the white paper was released, it was full of pre-written junk about how the white paper was long on spin but short on substance and it wasn't worth taking seriously.  His entire tone was "why would you read that after I've told you it's rubbish?"  Same with everything else I've seen, nothing about why the Scots should stay in the UK, lots about why the SNP are rubbish.

 

It gets continually ignored that it's not the UK vs the SNP, it's about independence, the SNP white paper is just that, the SNP version of what they'd do.  If Scotland votes for independence then there'll be another vote for the Scottish Parliament where there's a real chance the SNP could lose and you'd have another party's take on what they'd do.  The Westminster politicians and their media friends have fallen flat on their faces repeatedly for about a decade now pointing at the funny wee Scotsman and his funny wee party while having rings run round them on everything of substance.

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Whilst the SNP aren't Scotland, it is hard to get away from the fact that the SNP are the main voice of Scottish nationalism. Even Alex Salmond is not the leader of the Yes campaign, he is treated as being so. Who is the real leader? I'd have to google it as well.

 

There is no chance of the Yes campaign winning and the SNP not forming the first government. It's entirely sensible to ask whether this is the government that the Scottish electorate really want. Poor tactics but a valid question.

 

However, I don't think that your summary of the debate is really accurate. It has typically revolved around "funding gaps". Such as how will an independent Scotland fund pensions when the Scots population is facing a demographic time bomb (that the rest of the UK isn't)?

 

Naturally any government would have to deal with that but who else can answer that question? Scottish Labour have said that it is a huge problem and this is one of the reasons why they prefer the union with the rest of the UK, so have the Tories and the Liberals. So it's down to the SNP, the Scottish Socialists and the Scottish Greens to provide an answer. And no-one cares much about what the latter two think because they are too small to be relevant.

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Some reckon that the winners are the childcare, social provisions  etc.the end to the spare room subsidy etc. I genuinely hope the "yes" campaign wins.  A country of 5.3 million ought to be able to run itself efficiently and cater for the countries specific needs, culture, problems. 

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Watching BBC TV Question Time this evening has further strengthened my support for Scottish Independence. Every bigoted, pugnacious, argumentative one of 'em can clear off, try to stand on their own two alcohol-soaked feet and can buy their deep-fried mars bar diet without us subsidising them to do so.  The sooner they go, the better, ending centuries of dependence on England and the English.  :shout:  :shout:  :shout:  :shout:

 

My , that feels GOOOD!!!!!!  :D  :D  :D

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Watching BBC TV Question Time this evening has further strengthened my support for Scottish Independence. Every bigoted, pugnacious, argumentative one of 'em can clear off, try to stand on their own two alcohol-soaked feet and can buy their deep-fried mars bar diet without us subsidising them to do so.  The sooner they go, the better, ending centuries of dependence on England and the English.  :shout:  :shout:  :shout:  :shout:

 

My , that feels GOOOD!!!!!!  :D  :D  :D

Oh yes

Believe it or not the only person I could remotely stand was the Tory

I've always had a lot of time for her

And as for Eddie 'set my people free' Reeder...

As an ordinary english person from a working class background I'm getting more resentful with everything I hear and read

 

Independence can't soon enough I'm sick of even hearing a Scots accent even especially a certain kind of Scots accent. OK so your Scottish and?

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Watching BBC TV Question Time this evening has further strengthened my support for Scottish Independence. Every bigoted, pugnacious, argumentative one of 'em can clear off, try to stand on their own two alcohol-soaked feet and can buy their deep-fried mars bar diet without us subsidising them to do so.  The sooner they go, the better, ending centuries of dependence on England and the English.  :shout:  :shout:  :shout:  :shout:

 

My , that feels GOOOD!!!!!!  :D  :D  :D

We in England ought to be able to vote on this too.

The Scots have their own parliament in which the English have no voice and yet they still have a vote in the governance of England in Westminster.

I too would vote yes. Begone and leave us alone.

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 there is the danger of Northern Isles secession.

 

 

 

Something which is treated on the Scottish mainland with the same condescension as the English, in general, used to treat Scottish nationalism.

 

But given that Shetland, in particular, feels as remote from Edinburgh as it does from London, it is likely to be a growing movement.  There are always slight rumblings about it.

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Something which is treated on the Scottish mainland with the same condescension as the English, in general, used to treat Scottish nationalism.

 

But given that Shetland, in particular, feels as remote from Edinburgh as it does from London, it is likely to be a growing movement.  There are always slight rumblings about it.

I'd say that Scottish attitudes towards the Northern Isles are rather less progressive than that.

 

Scots nationalism was a fringe concern until the Thatcher era but everybody could see that Scotland is not England. I think very few people would say that Scotland has no right to a referendum even if they are strongly against Scots independence.

 

However Shetland and Orkney don't seem to warrant a discussion because "they are part of Scotland".

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I'd say that Scottish attitudes towards the Northern Isles are rather less progressive than that.

 

Scots nationalism was a fringe concern until the Thatcher era but everybody could see that Scotland is not England. I think very few people would say that Scotland has no right to a referendum even if they are strongly against Scots independence.

 

However Shetland and Orkney don't seem to warrant a discussion because "they are part of Scotland".

It's a different story though for the Scottish islands as they're clearly part of Scotland within the UK.  It's similar to the north of England feeling absolutely nothing in common with the City of London.  Just as it'd be daft to really consider the north of England breaking away from England, so is it daft to consider the Scottish islands breaking away from Scotland.  Essentially what the independence argument is now is that the Act of Union 1707 be repealed, dividing us back into England and Scotland.

 

An interesting bit of history that I remember from school is that the only two constituent countries of Britain are Scotland and England with Wales being legally a conquered English Principality.  So, now that I think about it, if you took a simple legal split ignoring political realities, if the Act of Union 1707 is repealed while the Act of Union 1800 is kept in force then that would result in a new United Kingdom of England and Ireland.  Maybe that's why the Welsh noses are quite firmly out of joint over the Scottish independence thing!  It would be quite amusing though...

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It's a different story though for the Scottish islands as they're clearly part of Scotland within the UK. 

 

You'd be surprised how strong the feeling is that they are Shetland and Orkney first, Scotland second ...  the legalese of the matter doesn't really enter into it.

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You'd be surprised how strong the feeling is that they are Shetland and Orkney first, Scotland second ...  the legalese of the matter doesn't really enter into it.

Knowing a few islanders I understand that completely.  I know a few frothy mouthed Yorkshiremen who want nothing to do with England.  There are also more than a few down Cornwall way who don't want anything to do with England.

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It's a different story though for the Scottish islands as they're clearly part of Scotland within the UK.  It's similar to the north of England feeling absolutely nothing in common with the City of London.  Just as it'd be daft to really consider the north of England breaking away from England, so is it daft to consider the Scottish islands breaking away from Scotland.  Essentially what the independence argument is now is that the Act of Union 1707 be repealed, dividing us back into England and Scotland.

 

An interesting bit of history that I remember from school is that the only two constituent countries of Britain are Scotland and England with Wales being legally a conquered English Principality.  So, now that I think about it, if you took a simple legal split ignoring political realities, if the Act of Union 1707 is repealed while the Act of Union 1800 is kept in force then that would result in a new United Kingdom of England and Ireland.  Maybe that's why the Welsh noses are quite firmly out of joint over the Scottish independence thing!  It would be quite amusing though...

The legal situation is as you say but as you also refer to is that officially England was considered to include Wales, however, almost everybody seems to have thought that Wales was separate from England de facto. The Scots don't even seem to do this wrt the Northern Isles.

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