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JohnM

Scottish Independence Referendum

Should Scotland be an independent country?   55 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Scotland be an independent country?

    • Yes
      27
    • No
      28

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It's rather odd to say that momentum is with the Yes campaign when they are behind in every poll. The only opinion poll quoted in the article was the "there is no longer a 20% gap". Maybe not, but there is still a substantial gap and it is not being closed with any speed.

 

The narrative isn't always led by the people comfortably in front.

 

90% of the voting public won't vote Ukip - get that impression from the media? (for example)

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The narrative isn't always led by the people comfortably in front.

 

90% of the voting public won't vote Ukip - get that impression from the media? (for example)

I'd find the narrative that events were being driven by Ukip rather difficult to agree with.

 

They get their headlines but most people don't agree with them.

 

Same with the SNP. For all their media savvyness, most Scots will vote "no" because they don't agree with them.

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UK Chancellor George Osborne will rule out a formal currency union with an independent Scotland, government sources have told the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26147783

How will this play north of the border, I wonder? Another own goal for the 'no' campaign?

there is always the risk of the "nasty English" sentiment growing over stuff like this though.

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UK Chancellor George Osborne will rule out a formal currency union with an independent Scotland, government sources have told the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26147783

 

How will this play north of the border, I wonder? Another own goal for the 'no' campaign?

I doubt it.

 

Anyway it's just honesty. It would be worse to pretend that anyone in England had any interest in a currency union post-independence and then stiff them.

 

They can't have their cake and eat it.

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there is always the risk of the "nasty English" sentiment growing over stuff like this though.

That's how they are spinning it.

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That's how they are spinning it.

It's pretty stupid. They've been arguing that continued use of Sterling is a certainty for ages. Now they are having to admit that it isn't.

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That's how they are spinning it.

yep, misread John's original point.

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They can't have their cake and eat it.

 

That appears to be what the SNP want and not just in relation to currency.

 

IMO if Scotland vote for independence then we in the UK should approach them just as we would any other non-EU country (since they would have to re-apply to be in the EU, or so it was reported last year anyway).

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Some serious disinformation going on about this.  if there is an independence "yes" vote then it will dissolve the Act of Union, Scotland will have exactly the same right to use and keep the pound as rump-UK, just as it'll have exactly the same rights to the other British assets and debts, just as it was a merging of assets and debts when the Act of Union took effect.  Alex Salmond makes a very good point that if the London Parliament breaks this then Scotland can rightly ignore any demands from London that Scotland takes its share of the UK sovereign debt.  Realistically, that leaves whoever the PM in charge at the time is two choices, allow a newly independent Scotland to keep the pound and farm off billions of pounds of sovereign debt to the new country OR petulantly refuse Scotland access to the pound and then lump every penny of the debt leaving Scotland as a brand new sovereign debt-free country.

 

Just think of it as a divorce, one party doesn't get to keep everything regardless of how hurt their feelings are about the other party wanting to walk away.

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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/12/uk-parties-rule-out-currency-union-Scotland

The disclosure prompted a furious response from Nicola Sturgeon (pictured), the SNP deputy first minister, who told BBC Radio Scotland: "This is a panic move which will backfire spectacularly. People won't take kindly to the Westminster establishment ganging up to try and bully Scotland in the decision that we are being asked to take on the referendum."

 

Sturgeon, who warned that forcing Scotland to use a different currency would cost firms in the rest of the UK up to £500m in extra bureaucracy and transaction costs, hinted again that a Scottish government could refuse to pay its share of the UK's debt, expected to hit £1.6tn in 2016, the proposed year of Scottish independence. But she stopped short of repeating Salmond's explicit threat to renege on debt repayments.

 

 

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Some serious disinformation going on about this.  if there is an independence "yes" vote then it will dissolve the Act of Union, Scotland will have exactly the same right to use and keep the pound as rump-UK, just as it'll have exactly the same rights to the other British assets and debts, just as it was a merging of assets and debts when the Act of Union took effect.  Alex Salmond makes a very good point that if the London Parliament breaks this then Scotland can rightly ignore any demands from London that Scotland takes its share of the UK sovereign debt.  Realistically, that leaves whoever the PM in charge at the time is two choices, allow a newly independent Scotland to keep the pound and farm off billions of pounds of sovereign debt to the new country OR petulantly refuse Scotland access to the pound and then lump every penny of the debt leaving Scotland as a brand new sovereign debt-free country.

 

Just think of it as a divorce, one party doesn't get to keep everything regardless of how hurt their feelings are about the other party wanting to walk away.

If we withdraw our share of funding for stuff like healthcare and the like would it matter about the sovereign debt?

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Some serious disinformation going on about this.  if there is an independence "yes" vote then it will dissolve the Act of Union, Scotland will have exactly the same right to use and keep the pound as rump-UK, just as it'll have exactly the same rights to the other British assets and debts, just as it was a merging of assets and debts when the Act of Union took effect.  Alex Salmond makes a very good point that if the London Parliament breaks this then Scotland can rightly ignore any demands from London that Scotland takes its share of the UK sovereign debt.  Realistically, that leaves whoever the PM in charge at the time is two choices, allow a newly independent Scotland to keep the pound and farm off billions of pounds of sovereign debt to the new country OR petulantly refuse Scotland access to the pound and then lump every penny of the debt leaving Scotland as a brand new sovereign debt-free country.

 

Just think of it as a divorce, one party doesn't get to keep everything regardless of how hurt their feelings are about the other party wanting to walk away.

In fact, just out of interest because I've not looked at it for a long time, I re-read the provisions of the Act of Union as something my post triggered away a little bit of my mind.  The Act of Union standardised the pounds of both countries to the value of that of England, essentially over-valuing the Scottish pounds of the time (the pre-union exchange was £100 English = £120 Scottish).  This was just part of the bribery done at the time to get the Scots to sign up to the deal.

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If we withdraw our share of funding for stuff like healthcare and the like would it matter about the sovereign debt?

I'd expect that from day 1 of independence that the Scots would fund themselves.  So, you'd be happy for the Scots to go away debt free if they gave up the pound?  Sovereign debt currently stands at £1,231,700,000,000.

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I'd expect that from day 1 of independence that the Scots would fund themselves.  So, you'd be happy for the Scots to go away debt free if they gave up the pound?  Sovereign debt currently stands at £1,231,700,000,000.

You're putting words into my fingers there.  I asked whether if we withdrew our funding for healthcare, etc, that would balance Scotland's share of the sovereign debt, since that was the element of sovereign debt being discussed, not the whole of it.  I'm quite sure England alone will have amassed a far greater percentage of the sovereign debt than Scotland for example.

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You're putting words into my fingers there.  I asked whether if we withdrew our funding for healthcare, etc, that would balance Scotland's share of the sovereign debt, since that was the element of sovereign debt being discussed, not the whole of it.  I'm quite sure England alone will have amassed a far greater percentage of the sovereign debt than Scotland for example.

Again, if Scotland pays its own way from day 1 for everything from healthcare to civil servants and agrees to give up the Sterling pound, would you be happy with them going away debt free?

 

If I were Eck Salmond I'd be devising my own currency immediately if that were the case... imagine that, day one of running a new country and you have a completely clean debt slate, no need to be paying nearly 20% of GDP on interest-equivalent payments, no need to prostitute yourself to the debt markets just to re-service existing debt to keep an artificial market grading and a perfect opportunity to fill a financial hole while also massively cutting taxes and still having a surplus.

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Again, if Scotland pays its own way from day 1 for everything from healthcare to civil servants and agrees to give up the Sterling pound, would you be happy with them going away debt free?

Nope.  I didn't say I would be.  I just posed a question.  I don't know why I bother though because people don't answer them they just get all childish in reply!

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Nope.  I didn't say I would be.  I just posed a question.  I don't know why I bother though because people don't answer them they just get all childish in reply!

Why was my post childish?  It was probably one of the more serious points I've made recently.

 

So... I posed a question, what would you rather:

 

Scenario 1:  Scotland gets to keep the pound as they should from the dissolution of the Act of Union and also gets their per-capita share of the UK's quite crippling sovereign debt; or

Scenario 2:  Scotland gets told to create their own currency and as a result have no liability towards the UK's sovereign debt.

 

I don't think that's really an unfair question.  It's certainly fairer than Cameron and co pretending that they'd be the sole custodians of the UK's assets post-independence.

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You'll have to explain why the two issues are linked. If the Scots go their own way then they should take their share of the debt with them - they built it up after all. Whether they keep the pound or not is a separate issue, surely?

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You'll have to explain why the two issues are linked. If the Scots go their own way then they should take their share of the debt with them - they built it up after all. Whether they keep the pound or not is a separate issue, surely?

So the Scots should get the debts but not the assets? The pound is a British asset, not an English one, the Scots have just as much right to it as the English.

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So the Scots should get the debts but not the assets? The pound is a British asset, not an English one, the Scots have just as much right to it as the English.

Is it an asset, in the same way an oil field or a painting is an asset?

Genuine question, because I don't see why the two issues are being linked.

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Is it an asset, in the same way an oil field or a painting is an asset?

Genuine question, because I don't see why the two issues are being linked.

Fair enough. They're linked because the Act of Union and negotiations around it took the Scottish and English pounds as well as their countrys' debts and merged them. For me, it's a very simple point, if you want to deny the Scots their historical right to a share of merged Bank of England assets then you can't saddle them with the debts tied to sterling debts.

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