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DeadShotKeen

Why the Hull clubs must merge

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I agree with the theory that we need one main club in each area to get as much money into one club as possible to obviously have one better academy rather two average ones ect but merging is not the way to do it.

Merging would be far to risky to do so. How can you create a business model on creating a merged club? There isn't a way of calculating how many fans would turn up and how much income you would get in a year. If you force a merger through you could potentially end up with one club which doesn't have the fans or finances to support itself (largely due to fans being loyal)

Merger enthusiast have to accept that a lot of fans would not support a merged side. Because they are supporting their side because of many different reasons. An 40 year old fan who has turned up to every game with his 65 year old dad for the last 35 years likely won't watch a merged side. You can't say they're holding the game back they are just supporting their team like the have done for decades. It's the loyalty in sport which makes it so passionate and enjoyable to watch. If we didn't have this loyalty and passion in the game between fans and their clubs but we would not have a game.

Saying people are holding the game back because they live and die by their club is quite frankly ridiculous. They are the reason why sport is one of the biggest money generating businesses on the planet. It's what makes it so enjoyable to watch.

Let's say there was a motorway between Barrow and West Cumbria. It would create potentially an area of 250,000 people within an easy 40 minute drive with eachother. A merger was being forced and they were going to get rid of Barrow. Would I support the new club if it would mean the end of Barrow RLFC. Not a chance I would. Why would I choose to support a team who my dad has spent the last 40 years watching and has played for, who I have supported all my life and want them to reach the highest level over some club who I have no affiliation to just because it will generate the most revenue. The fact is I probably wouldn't. Yet I'd be expected to because the club is in my area and I'd be holding the game back if I didn't.

There are many people like this who have ties to a club which they just couldn't let go. A lot of these clubs have been in existence for the best part of a century. They aren't holding the sport back they are sports fans and have connections to people which are big parts of peoples lives that they get passionate about it, it makes sport what it is.

Forcing a merger is just risky and probably won't work. I'm not an idiot I know that for our game to progress we need to have more money in the top clubs. But merging just isn't the way to do it as you can't underestimate the connection between fans and their clubs. You certainly can't slate them for doing so either.

If Hull FC ran themselves better for the earliest part of the 21st century there would be a more dominant Hull club to which DSK wants so badly. Unfortunately they've let Hull KR grow and grow until the point they are likely hindering them slightly. If they were run better they'd of done to KR what Leeds did to Bramley and Hunslet and what Wigan did to Leigh.

Natural elimination is how to do it. I will admit I wish there was a way to speed it up though.

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I think you need to look at everything including mergers, relegation Licences etc and what it intends to do and look at the Pros and Cons. There is rarely a right or wrong thoughts/Posts. Each has their pros and cons. I personally dont think that a merger would actually do much. A couple of areas to look at

 

MONEY

It might bring more money in and more fans. But their is no guarentee that would actually happen. In fact you could end up pushing many fans away like what happened with mergers in Australia for example. Push enough people away and the merger would still be a club losing money and struggling to compete in SL. And if you have a money man whats to stop him walking away with the Club owing loads of money and then diasppearing? Or what happens if you end up with a money man like Hull City/Hull Tigers who has changed the name of the club and told the fans to go and die? And a club can have money and pretend to be doing well- Like Wigan and Leeds did before SL. but if its not managed properly then its pointless. For example for all of Wigans success in the late 80s and early 90s it very nearly killed them. And Leeds were big spenders but what did they win in the 80s and early 90s? And they ended up with debts. A money man is not the answer to a club being ran well or winning trophies. It may help but its not the main thing for a club to be doing well on and off the field.

 

Bigger Crowds

Again you may gain some new fans but you also risk pushing thousands away. The mergers of St. George and Illawarra and Wests and Balmain did see the clubs get higher crowds. But when you look at what both the merge clubs used to get and what the Merged club now gets you will find that the Merged clubs crowds are smaller even now than what the combined 2 clubs used to average. And the merger between North Sydney and Manly was simply a mess and the scars are very much there even now especially in the North Sydny/Central Coast area. To simply merge clubs does not automatically mean bigger crowds and certainly not what the combined total from the 2 clubs used to get. Often the Clubs have a proud tradition and fans that are extremely proud and one eyed about their club. To simply expect fans to accept a merger of their club with likely one of their greatest rivals is being blinkered and unrealistic.

 

As said a merger may or may not work. It may look like a good idea but all things need to be considered before even announcing suchathing as it can cause many problems even mentioning it and can force people to be forced away from a club including money men. Tony Gartland was one example when he mentioned that Fax could Merge with Bradford before SL came about. Rightly or wrongly he was met by a wall of anger and sadly received even hate mail and threats. A merger is an emotional topic and one not to be taken lightly

Here we go again with your non sequitur argument that if a merged team gets fewer fans than the 2 teams' fans combined then the merger has been a failure.

Here's how it actually works:

If a league's administrative body sees that 2 of its sides have 10K fans but their new minimum standard is 15K and if said sides are suitably proximate that it merges them and the new side achieves 15K fans then this has been a success.

A new space has been provided for an "expansion" side in a new target area, who may not achieve the minimum 15K right away (given their expansion nature) but who will do in time with partial help from the extra resources generated from new commercial enterprises in the new area and thanks probably also to a greater TV windfall from both broadcaster and advertising, given the new greater reach.

There are actually more than the previous 20K fans, just spread over a greater area. There may be fewer than 20K fans in the previous stronghold - this is regrettable but ultimately the choice of the stay away fans, who have still been offered elite sport (to a better standard than before, btw, given the greater spectator base of the new club) and as touched on in my piece are IMHO nothing more than spoilt kids.

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I agree with the theory that we need one main club in each area to get as much money into one club as possible to obviously have one better academy rather two average ones ect but merging is not the way to do it.

Merging would be far to risky to do so. How can you create a business model on creating a merged club? There isn't a way of calculating how many fans would turn up and how much income you would get in a year. If you force a merger through you could potentially end up with one club which doesn't have the fans or finances to support itself (largely due to fans being loyal)

Merger enthusiast have to accept that a lot of fans would not support a merged side. Because they are supporting their side because of many different reasons. An 40 year old fan who has turned up to every game with his 65 year old dad for the last 35 years likely won't watch a merged side. You can't say they're holding the game back they are just supporting their team like the have done for decades. It's the loyalty in sport which makes it so passionate and enjoyable to watch. If we didn't have this loyalty and passion in the game between fans and their clubs but we would not have a game.

Saying people are holding the game back because they live and die by their club is quite frankly ridiculous. They are the reason why sport is one of the biggest money generating businesses on the planet. It's what makes it so enjoyable to watch.

Let's say there was a motorway between Barrow and West Cumbria. It would create potentially an area of 250,000 people within an easy 40 minute drive with eachother. A merger was being forced and they were going to get rid of Barrow. Would I support the new club if it would mean the end of Barrow RLFC. Not a chance I would. Why would I choose to support a team who my dad has spent the last 40 years watching and has played for, who I have supported all my life and want them to reach the highest level over some club who I have no affiliation to just because it will generate the most revenue. The fact is I probably wouldn't. Yet I'd be expected to because the club is in my area and I'd be holding the game back if I didn't.

There are many people like this who have ties to a club which they just couldn't let go. A lot of these clubs have been in existence for the best part of a century. They aren't holding the sport back they are sports fans and have connections to people which are big parts of peoples lives that they get passionate about it, it makes sport what it is.

Forcing a merger is just risky and probably won't work. I'm not an idiot I know that for our game to progress we need to have more money in the top clubs. But merging just isn't the way to do it as you can't underestimate the connection between fans and their clubs. You certainly can't slate them for doing so either.

If Hull FC ran themselves better for the earliest part of the 21st century there would be a more dominant Hull club to which DSK wants so badly. Unfortunately they've let Hull KR grow and grow until the point they are likely hindering them slightly. If they were run better they'd of done to KR what Leeds did to Bramley and Hunslet and what Wigan did to Leigh.

Natural elimination is how to do it. I will admit I wish there was a way to speed it up though.

"Natural elimination" sounds like the domain of savages and wild beasts to me. I say we achieve the new parity by more mature, inclusive human reasoning and explanation of the process personally.

It's interesting that with one breath you sing the praises of fine loyal fans being trodden on by merger suggestion yet with another speak of natural elimination. I guess these fans are fine, loyal and downtrodden only if they are not ripe for elimination by whatever measures you yourself seem to have dreamed up. Would that be about the size of it?

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I know.

But what could a merged club offer that Hull FC on their own can't at the moment? What have Hull KR got that we'd want?

I literally don't see the point.

 

Which goes back to my old argument, eventually in all these areas where clubs sit on each others doorsteps and fight directly for local resources only one club will be the eventual SL winner.

 

Hull and Hull KR are not in a battle with the rest of RL to be the two top dogs, they are in a battle with each other to be top dog in Hull.

 

What Hull KR have that Hull FC want is  money and resources in 'Humberside'. This isn't just a Hull thing it happens elsewhere. 

 

The philosophy behind merging clubs isn't about merging fan bases, that is the mistake fans make by believing it is.

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York be a great day out if they were in SL.

 

So why was it never a great day out before when they were in the first division, what has changed apart from Div1 being called SL?

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There is a serious soccer presence with amateur soccer plated throughout the area and a major constituency of leeds United support

 

Not sure about the 20,000 figure in fact I gave grave doubts

However I think neither of these are relevant

 

This is because I don't think soccer and rugby are really in competition and the potential for a new audience is great

 

The potential for a major club in the area to compete for honours on a consistent basis is enormous and could be one if the most exciting stories in the history of the game

But as you say 'the fans' won't have it due to resistance to change, narrow self interest, living in the past, and reactionary attitudes

What a shame

 

It's not just the 'fans' though.

 

As Parky quite rightly point out the fans don't really have any influence on decisions made by the 'owners' of clubs. If there was a big 'moneyman' in the 'Calder' area they would surely have come along by now, offered his money to either force through a merger or more easily take over one of the clubs and effectively annihilate the local opposition with (according to Parky's theory) all the 'fans' flocking to watch the newly successful 'big' club. I don't see any evidence of any of that happening or indeed have been in the offing over the last 17 years. Nor do I see any evidence of the Chairman of any RL club looking to merge......

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It's not just the 'fans' though.

 

As Parky quite rightly point out the fans don't really have any influence on decisions made by the 'owners' of clubs. If there was a big 'moneyman' in the 'Calder' area they would surely have come along by now, offered his money to either force through a merger or more easily take over one of the clubs and effectively annihilate the local opposition with (according to Parky's theory) all the 'fans' flocking to watch the newly successful 'big' club. I don't see any evidence of any of that happening or indeed have been in the offing over the last 17 years. Nor do I see any evidence of the Chairman of any RL club looking to merge......

 

There's so much wrong with that that I really don't know where to start.

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I would be happy to see SL clubs stay on what they are now for another year If it meant a real chance to save the London club, That's just my opinion. The SL chairmen would no doubt have their own ideas, And being they are the ones putting the money in, they will get to call the tune.

 

 What i really don't understand is this dogged attitude that says " If i can't have what i want I'm not having anything"   Club loyalty is great ! and i understand that it is a very big thing in some peoples life, maybe the most important in some peoples, But what when the club disapears, do you follow another one from close by ,or do you sit at home and cry. If you move to Oz do you stop wacthing the game cause you cant watch YOUR team.

Two of the clubs would not "stay on what they are on". They would lose their Sky funding.

 

As for your second paragraph, some people are more rooted in one place than other people I suppose. I'd watch my local team wherever I was but I move around a lot. Some people still live in the town they were born in and their grandparents are buried in the local cemetry.

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There's so much wrong with that that I really know where to start.

 

Give it a go Dave 

I'm all 'tears of the Calder' ed out

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Here we go again with your non sequitur argument that if a merged team gets fewer fans than the 2 teams' fans combined then the merger has been a failure.

Here's how it actually works:

If a league's administrative body sees that 2 of its sides have 10K fans but their new minimum standard is 15K and if said sides are suitably proximate that it merges them and the new side achieves 15K fans then this has been a success.

A new space has been provided for an "expansion" side in a new target area, who may not achieve the minimum 15K right away (given their expansion nature) but who will do in time with partial help from the extra resources generated from new commercial enterprises in the new area and thanks probably also to a greater TV windfall from both broadcaster and advertising, given the new greater reach.

There are actually more than the previous 20K fans, just spread over a greater area. There may be fewer than 20K fans in the previous stronghold - this is regrettable but ultimately the choice of the stay away fans, who have still been offered elite sport (to a better standard than before, btw, given the greater spectator base of the new club) and as touched on in my piece are IMHO nothing more than spoilt kids.

I believe these are the crowds from 2013 in SL

 

Leeds... 15197... (14948)

Wigan... 14545... (16043)

Hull... 11680... (11885)

St Helens... 11345... (14087)

Warrington... 10633... (11452)

Bradford... 8563... (11761)

Catalan... 8363... (9385)

Wakefield... 7972... (8172)

Hull KR... 7495... (7786)

Huddersfield... 6368... (7709)

Castleford... 6306... (6633)

Widnes... 6015... (5977)

Salford... 3125... (5503)

London... 2213... (2808)

 

Hull FC and Hull KR are getting better crowds than a number of other SL clubs. And how many clubs are even close to getting your 15K minimum? And even bringing in either a Championship club or some made up fantasy club placed in Wales or somehwere they will not even get close to matching either Hull clubs for many years in crowd attendance or the money coming in via fans and sponsors. And Sky are not going to offer any more money to help bring in a new club like News did with Melbourne Storm. The fantasy that a Merged club will be better than Hull FC and Hull KR and offer so many positives is just a fantasy based on emptyness. If we are going to see mergers I think you would see other clubs merge well before the Hull clubs. The SL clubs have shown they NEED the Sky money to survive and wont allow London or any other development team get a bigger share than the rest. This fantasy that Sky are looking for mergers and looking to bring in new clubs is just that- a fantasy. 

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Two of the clubs would not "stay on what they are on". They would lose their Sky funding.

 

As for your second paragraph, some people are more rooted in one place than other people I suppose. I'd watch my local team wherever I was but I move around a lot. Some people still live in the town they were born in and their grandparents are buried in the local cemetry.

 

I was thinking in the event of SL dropping down to 12

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I was thinking in the event of SL dropping down to 12

The thing being that this is driven by clubs like Wakey, Bulls etc needing more cash to stay full-time. There is no way that they would agree dropping to 12 just to keep London in the league. More cash is needed generally.

 

Personally I'd look to bring in more revenue sharing. In the old days of soccer, the away team got 1/3rd of the gate.Worth considering.

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I agree with the theory that we need one main club in each area to get as much money into one club as possible to obviously have one better academy rather two average ones ect but merging is not the way to do it.

Merging would be far to risky to do so. How can you create a business model on creating a merged club? There isn't a way of calculating how many fans would turn up and how much income you would get in a year. If you force a merger through you could potentially end up with one club which doesn't have the fans or finances to support itself (largely due to fans being loyal)

Merger enthusiast have to accept that a lot of fans would not support a merged side. Because they are supporting their side because of many different reasons. An 40 year old fan who has turned up to every game with his 65 year old dad for the last 35 years likely won't watch a merged side. You can't say they're holding the game back they are just supporting their team like the have done for decades. It's the loyalty in sport which makes it so passionate and enjoyable to watch. If we didn't have this loyalty and passion in the game between fans and their clubs but we would not have a game.

Saying people are holding the game back because they live and die by their club is quite frankly ridiculous. They are the reason why sport is one of the biggest money generating businesses on the planet. It's what makes it so enjoyable to watch.

Let's say there was a motorway between Barrow and West Cumbria. It would create potentially an area of 250,000 people within an easy 40 minute drive with eachother. A merger was being forced and they were going to get rid of Barrow. Would I support the new club if it would mean the end of Barrow RLFC. Not a chance I would. Why would I choose to support a team who my dad has spent the last 40 years watching and has played for, who I have supported all my life and want them to reach the highest level over some club who I have no affiliation to just because it will generate the most revenue. The fact is I probably wouldn't. Yet I'd be expected to because the club is in my area and I'd be holding the game back if I didn't.

There are many people like this who have ties to a club which they just couldn't let go. A lot of these clubs have been in existence for the best part of a century. They aren't holding the sport back they are sports fans and have connections to people which are big parts of peoples lives that they get passionate about it, it makes sport what it is.

Forcing a merger is just risky and probably won't work. I'm not an idiot I know that for our game to progress we need to have more money in the top clubs. But merging just isn't the way to do it as you can't underestimate the connection between fans and their clubs. You certainly can't slate them for doing so either.

If Hull FC ran themselves better for the earliest part of the 21st century there would be a more dominant Hull club to which DSK wants so badly. Unfortunately they've let Hull KR grow and grow until the point they are likely hindering them slightly. If they were run better they'd of done to KR what Leeds did to Bramley and Hunslet and what Wigan did to Leigh.

Natural elimination is how to do it. I will admit I wish there was a way to speed it up though.

 

 

I can see sense in much of that , the only thing is i am not in any way advocating forcing clubs to merge , I am saying do it rather than loose your club altogether, I wish it were different but it seems to me than many clubs will never get back to their great days, Why not watch a new club that has elements of your old club in it.

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There is no getting away from the fact Hull fc merged and were better for it, this propelled them forward,

Once Hull kr came onto the scene this dragged hull backwards....

The evidence is there....

Another merger would propel them forward again, it did last time it would again, as stated this would also free up another franchise opportunity for another area.....

I agree that Hull kr shouldn't dissappear but there is nothing wrong with being a feeder team, college football in US is as popular as the nfl!

Being the best at tier2 has done wonders for fev and Sheffield, Hull could have 2 champion teams,

The status quo will see more of the same mediocrity. ...

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Just because there are two clubs in hull all you yogurt knitting buffoons always try and pick on us. There are 20000 supporters going to Hull and rovers a week. There is obviously a market for two clubs as both individually get bigger Gates than the majority in the super league. Leave us alone.

Both clubs have fantastic fans who put all other clubs away support to shame.

We dont want to merge we are happy to co exist. Go bug Warrington and Widnes or leigh and Wigan. See if they want to merge.

I may be old but forever faithful!

 

Now then, well said young man.

 

I for one have every belief that either / or Rovers and Hull are capable of breaking into the elite top four and that when we get their it will be all the better for the long wait and the hard work building up to it.

 

The glories achieved by the likes of Wigan and Leeds over the last few years will never now give their fans the high that we will get when "the early 80s return".

 

Anybody who properly understands the emotion of the greatest Derby will see that a merger would lead to so much heartbreak and the probability of new clubs emerging from the wreckage, leading to ebven more fragmented financing.

 

DSK and others are all "naughty boys" who should direct your energies to other club mergers. Sort them out,prove they work and then the City of Culture might give you the time of day.

 

Roll on Feb 2014 when we can focus not on all this shiite but on the forthcoming weekends games.

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Hull should only have one SL team, and that should be Hull FC. A merger isn't necessarily the only option however. Another solution is to relegate Hull KR from Super League and give it no hope of ever regaining entry. Starving Hull KR into submission will avoid the tricky merger and make the problem go away. The fan base for Hull KR will eventually dry-up once the team has no hope of achieving anything and is only playing to 500 people in an amateur league. Over time the city of Hull will get behind one SL team, particularly the younger generation of league fans.

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Hull should only have one SL team, and that should be Hull FC. A merger isn't necessarily the only option however. Another solution is to relegate Hull KR from Super League and give it no hope of ever regaining entry. Starving Hull KR into submission will avoid the tricky merger and make the problem go away. The fan base for Hull KR will eventually dry-up once the team has no hope of achieving anything and is only playing to 500 people in an amateur league. Over time the city of Hull will get behind one SL team, particularly the younger generation of league fans.

 

Some great posts putting alternative arguments, either leave them alone, they are both well supported and they will thrive (wishful thinking stuff - fair enough) or let natural selection take place, in time one will dominate.

 

There was no forced Leeds merger of Hunslet, Bramley and Leeds but a process of eventual domination by one club is near complete. This didn't start in 1996. In 1966 Leeds were after Hunslet's best players after their cup final appearance, taking in particular Bill Ramsey and Kenny Eyre.

 

To me Adam Pearson's attempts to buy the best players Rovers had last year, at a time when Hudgell and Crossland were talking of standing down looked like his attempt to wipe Rovers out. That Rovers had a half decent season despite the raids on their playing staff will have frustrated him. As a businessman I'm sure he'd swap the "Derby" for Rovers relegation.

 

The problem the game has is the random way in which private investors come into the game, and their money is nigh on impossible to refuse.

 

If only mega rich Koukash had taken on London, if Hudgell & Crossland had joined Hull, Davey invested in Bradford, and Campbell and Nahaboo had their weight behind Wakefield then we may today be looking at a competitive Superleague in far far better shape without any need for mergers at all.

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Hull should only have one SL team, and that should be Hull FC. A merger isn't necessarily the only option however. Another solution is to relegate Hull KR from Super League and give it no hope of ever regaining entry. Starving Hull KR into submission will avoid the tricky merger and make the problem go away. The fan base for Hull KR will eventually dry-up once the team has no hope of achieving anything and is only playing to 500 people in an amateur league. Over time the city of Hull will get behind one SL team, particularly the younger generation of league fans.

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It is obvious to me you know nothing about the city or its supporters neither hull nor rovers want tge other to be left to die we are in troubled times around the games elite it appears to me hull has two well run well supported clubs. And the thought that rovers fans would just get behind hull is very simple minded and lazy writing.

We from hull are black and white or red and white.

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I think we have to consider the big picture...which in my opinion is the long term viability , security and stability of the game at the elite level in a changing sporting, societal, demographic environment.

Like it or not, and for whatever reason, some clubs will be able to do this on their own. Others will not.

It seems to me that in the Wakestoneford area, the improvement in one club is at the expense of the other two.

Whilst respecting the views of those who vow never to support a merged team, it might prove impossible to postpone the inevitable.

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Can’t help but think the mentality of the game is such that a merger would result in 3 clubs not one. 

 

Not sure I get the “anti-merger” stance, I bet if you look back far enough into most clubs history you’ll probably find mergers and amalgamations at some point.

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It is obvious to me you know nothing about the city or its supporters neither hull nor rovers want tge other to be left to die we are in troubled times around the games elite it appears to me hull has two well run well supported clubs. And the thought that rovers fans would just get behind hull is very simple minded and lazy writing.

We from hull are black and white or red and white.

 

All sounds very nicey nicey, but I'm sure the Hull board would love to get back to the pick of any Hull junior and the big crowds they had on the back of the cup win and grand final appearance. Their best crowds were achieved not by the introduction of the Hull derby but by actually competing for trophies.

 

I don't think anyone believes current fans will just switch, but again to believe this is all about the fans is wrong, it's about having the resources to compete with the top clubs something Mr. Hudgell who has to spend half a million a year to plug the resource gap, and is fed up with it, is doubting Rovers can ever do, especially on the back of his best players being raided by such as Wigan and erm Mr. Pearson at Hull trying to pick off Rovers best players.

 

I'm certain the two groups of supporters in the main love having their competition with each other, sadly they don't run the clubs. Those who do may feel very differently to the supporters?

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7 miles between Hull and Hull KR.

8 between Cas and Wakey.

10 between Leeds and Bradford.

How many miles before we say a club is far enough from another and has a right to exist?

150 years of rugby in Hull says that a merger in Hull would never work. 2015 will give you all the evidence you need, so watch this space.

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I have not read all the posts, but, the only club that is struggling in hull is KR. Hull FC do not need to merge, it would not benefit them, they have a great set up. Unfortunately Rovers cannot compete and are destined to fold.

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I have not read all the posts, but, the only club that is struggling in hull is KR. Hull FC do not need to merge, it would not benefit them, they have a great set up. Unfortunately Rovers cannot compete and are destined to fold.

 

Well it's not about miles it's about money, and as you say Hull probably have enough of it to see Rovers off. They have been picking off their best players, and I'd guess when it come to "Youth" the kids will know which club they are more likely to have the better career at now. New fans fancying watching RL will have no problem choosing the KC.

 

This process happened before, in 1995 HKR dropped out of the top flight and crowds fell to 1900, by 2003 they were 1600. Since then crowds at championship level have dropped by a third, HKR would likely be on

around 1000 if they hadn't been rescued by Mr. Hudgell's money.

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