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Kenilworth Tiger

Bradford Bulls - not sounding good

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I've never been a fan of Bradford and how they've been run over the last decade but the new lot seem to at least have honesty to their credit.  As with most situations, a frank exposure of the uncomfortable truth rather than perpetual drip-fed bad news is a far better scenario for everyone, it allows people to look at the situation and either address it or move on.  The other benefit is that it's still off-season, hopefully at least plasters will be openly in place to address the points raised yesterday before the season kicks off.  A tough season of living well within their means and hoping they evade the compulsory relegation at the end of 2014.  As they said, they'll be getting their full RFL funding again for the 2015 season along with, hopefully, renewed other income sources.

 

Bradford fixing their problems is probably entirely in their own hands, a completely different scenario to London who are hoping for an external miracle.

 

But, on the London thread, you wrote that we shouldn't discuss Bradford? If, say, London had an owner who earned, say, 20m a year and wanted to discuss with the RFL how best to leave that club debt free and with new investors, wouldn't they be far better off than Bradford without one? Particularly given the recent demonstration of the huge appetite for league in London?  

Bradford's problems have been, and remain, that they don't have a Hughes or Moran to write the sorts of cheques they need to move from where they are to where they'd like to be. I was sent Wigan's accounts for 2012 the other day, as a shareholder. We made a small profit, again, against a £6m turnover, with a £3m plus wage bill. Now, IL can slice and dice his business interests and accounts any way he wants, but the turnover and wage bill sound reasonable to me. If we say £5m is the cost to run a club to top level SL standard, then the Bulls have always been up against it. They have no problems that an owner rich and willing enough to plough in 1m a year can't fix. 

If they don't then aren't they faced with going in ever decreasing circles?  

Every club in the game owes Bradford a debt of gratitude for what they did at the start of SL to lead us into the brighter, newer era, and as ever I hope they get through 2014 and onto higher ground.

Looking ahead, and the more I look at the game post World Cup, would a 10 team SL with 2 French teams be so bad? I'd say that'd be the maximum who could afford a 5m turnover. SL2 could have some fantastic teams - maybe even the BBC would like a slice?

Finally, I am concerned about the discussion of the Bateman transfer. I hope against hope Wigan acted above board, but I couldn't quite unravel who was being accused of doing what there.

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during our game at odsal last season the terracing gave way under my sons foot causing him to sprain his ankle. odsal is a tired old ground which is falling deeper into decay every year..............

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Finally, I am concerned about the discussion of the Bateman transfer. I hope against hope Wigan acted above board, but I couldn't quite unravel who was being accused of doing what there.

 

I think the insinuation of blame is at Ryan Whiticut selling him without the knowledge of the rest of the board, not at Wigan. I’m sure as far as Wigan was concerned it was all legit as he was Bulls top brass at the time.

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How was mr Kahn allowed to run up these debts and borrow money against the club it could not afford to pay back. I would of thought after the previous debacle the rfl would of had a close eye on the accounts after all they passed them off to extend the bulls lisence in super league.

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How was mr Kahn allowed to run up these debts and borrow money against the club it could not afford to pay back. I would of thought after the previous debacle the rfl would of had a close eye on the accounts after all they passed them off to extend the bulls lisence in super league.

 

I think they did have their eyes on it, hence Mr Khan's sudden "illness".

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How was mr Kahn allowed to run up these debts and borrow money against the club it could not afford to pay back. I would of thought after the previous debacle the rfl would of had a close eye on the accounts after all they passed them off to extend the bulls lisence in super league.

This is an independent company, the RFL can't stop them going to the bank or providing their own money as loans to their own company.

 

This is the challenge the RFL have - they can only see the plans, ultimately owners can then pretty much do as they please. Once it all comes out they just ###### off.

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I've never been a fan of Bradford and how they've been run over the last decade but the new lot seem to at least have honesty to their credit. As with most situations, a frank exposure of the uncomfortable truth rather than perpetual drip-fed bad news is a far better scenario for everyone, it allows people to look at the situation and either address it or move on. The other benefit is that it's still off-season, hopefully at least plasters will be openly in place to address the points raised yesterday before the season kicks off. A tough season of living well within their means and hoping they evade the compulsory relegation at the end of 2014. As they said, they'll be getting their full RFL funding again for the 2015 season along with, hopefully, renewed other income sources.

Bradford fixing their problems is probably entirely in their own hands, a completely different scenario to London who are hoping for an external miracle.

Or if I was really investing in Bradford I would look to ensure that they did stay up and eventually thrive. If they have a poor side and get relegated then surely that's poor business too. I can't see any club in any sport moving to the top without a fair amount of speculation and deep pockets. This doesn't mean that systematic losses are acceptable, and that clubs shouldn't aim to live within their means, but the best option ifntou want success is to invest and grow their means.

That's the difference in balancing the books in the short term and building a successful long term business.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, Gateshead for instance were prepared to invest in building a SL business by ultimately their pockets weren't deep enough and the lack of equal SL funding exasperated problem (and of course there were a host of other issues).

It sounds like the new Bulls owners don't have deep enough pockets to take them back to the top, in which case accepting their new lower positionl in the pecking order is the limit of what they can achieve. I suspect it'll take a few years and another change of ownership but Bradford will eventually be back at the top.

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As Snellins have shown, a new stadium works wonders. Punters have come to expect decent stadia now, decent clean facilities plus a half decent team to watch. It's a combination that's needed, and Odsal, bless it, probably isn't up to the job.

Don't forget, though, that when McManus took over at St Helens we were over £2 million in debt and on the verge of administration.  We were fortunate in having a man in charge who was not only financially astute and pretty ruthless but who had very rich and equally astute contacts in the world of business and finance. 

 

I think it will be a while before Langtree Park makes a profit if indeed it ever does.  It appears to be well used for other events but whether it is being well used enough or not is another matter.

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It sounds like the new Bulls owners don't have deep enough pockets to take them back to the top, in which case accepting their new lower positionl in the pecking order is the limit of what they can achieve. I suspect it'll take a few years and another change of ownership but Bradford will eventually be back at the top.

 

Cracking post, and a fair summary IMHO.

 

This "live within your means" thing is OK but in reality many successful clubs are where they are, as are thousands of businesses ,because they did not do that very thing. The problem for RL seems to be that in business if you buy a machine for 100K and it churns out cheap quality product you can sell all over the country/world you get a fantastic return.

 

If the Bulls spent £100K on importing an Aussie to improve the team it would hardly put another bum on a seat. As you say this is a deep pockets game in which the investor has to be prepared to pocket pretty much guaranteed heavy losses.

 

So what does live within your means mean in reality for Bradford Bulls? Will living within their means next year see Bradfords crowds rise?? stabilise at 8563?? or perhaps tail off towards 7,000.

 

Then what? Adjust downwards, sell another player or two and live within lesser means?? Just where does living within one's means end because one thing is for sure - you can't stand still in business.

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How can anyone borrow from a bank anymore against an asset worth nothing? or did OK do the standard Directors Loan investment

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Cracking post, and a fair summary IMHO.

 

This "live within your means" thing is OK but in reality many successful clubs are where they are, as are thousands of businesses ,because they did not do that very thing. The problem for RL seems to be that in business if you buy a machine for 100K and it churns out cheap quality product you can sell all over the country/world you get a fantastic return.

 

If the Bulls spent £100K on importing an Aussie to improve the team it would hardly put another bum on a seat. As you say this is a deep pockets game in which the investor has to be prepared to pocket pretty much guaranteed heavy losses.

 

So what does live within your means mean in reality for Bradford Bulls? Will living within their means next year see Bradfords crowds rise?? stabilise at 8563?? or perhaps tail off towards 7,000.

 

Then what? Adjust downwards, sell another player or two and live within lesser means?? Just where does living within one's means end because one thing is for sure - you can't stand still in business.

so why did you be so negative about widnes securing more financial investment??

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so why did you be so negative about widnes securing more financial investment??

I'm negative about the facts being hidden wether it's the extent of a clubs debt, or the extent of new investment. Funnily enough if Widnes are getting adequate investment to get over their own shortfall then all five Lancashire SL clubs will be "sound as a pound".

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I'm negative about the facts being hidden wether it's the extent of a clubs debt, or the extent of new investment. Funnily enough if Widnes are getting adequate investment to get over their own shortfall then all five Lancashire SL clubs will be "sound as a pound".

 

Last time I looked Widnes wasn't in Lancashire..........

 

I agree that new investment is probably a tactic for SOC to put less in! therefore it amounts to no 'new investment'

 

This isn't a negative though as the future of the club doesn't then just rest on one man.......As long as there's no board room split then they should be fine...

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Doesn't get any better for the Bulls. It looks like their June 19 Thursday night clash with Hull KR on Sky Sports is going smack up against England v Uruguay in the World Cup. Good luck trying to market that game.

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Doesn't get any better for the Bulls. It looks like their June 19 Thursday night clash with Hull KR on Sky Sports is going smack up against England v Uruguay in the World Cup. Good luck trying to market that game.

Do keep up. The World Cup has just finished!

;)

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Do keep up. The World Cup has just finished!

;)

how did uruguay get on ;)

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The way the game is going. Every club has to find there level.

 

Maybe the Bulls have to drop out of SL to be able to find theres.

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Last time I looked Widnes wasn't in Lancashire..........

 

I agree that new investment is probably a tactic for SOC to put less in! therefore it amounts to no 'new investment'

 

This isn't a negative though as the future of the club doesn't then just rest on one man.......As long as there's no board room split then they should be fine...

 

 

On that basis their are no Super League clubs in Lancashire nowadays.

 

St Helens now Merseyside

Wigan - Greater Manchester

Warrington - Cheshire

Widnes - Cheshire

Salford - Greater Manchester

 

When I was a lad I was from Lancashire and still stick to them all being in Lancashire. 

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On that basis their are no Super League clubs in Lancashire nowadays.

St Helens now Merseyside

Wigan - Greater Manchester

Warrington - Cheshire

Widnes - Cheshire

Salford - Greater Manchester

When I was a lad I was from Lancashire and still stick to them all being in Lancashire.

So on that basis yugoslavia behind the iron curtain is still allies of the USSR???

Do you not recognise south sudan either?

When you go to spain do you take pesetas with you as you cant except the eurozone?

Unfortunately mate we are now in the 21st century.....

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Aren't they still in the County Palatine of Lancashire though?

Yes and Barrow

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On that basis their are no Super League clubs in Lancashire nowadays.

 

St Helens now Merseyside

Wigan - Greater Manchester

Warrington - Cheshire

Widnes - Cheshire

Salford - Greater Manchester

 

When I was a lad I was from Lancashire and still stick to them all being in Lancashire. 

 

 

Not just SL clubs, no "professional" RL clubs at all.

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