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TheTerminator

Nelson Mandela - other subjects

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Fortunately it didn't. But it's precisely because of the multiplicity of ethnic groups in South Africa that there was a danger of conflict, regardless of what the Freedom Charter might say. Tyrants tend not to take much notice of such documents, if and when they get into power.

Mandela's achievement was to lead his nation away from that possibility.

I think you are completely misunderstanding the ANC. A democratic party since its founding in 1912. It was never going to create a dictator. The situation in SA was very very different to that in the colonial frontline states.

There were many political parties in pre-liberation SA who were 'like' Zanu-PF - the Maoist PAC/APLA being the largest - but they were never embraced by mainstream South Africans black or white.

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I think FWDK deserves credit for being smart enough to see the writing on the wall, but not an awful lot more than that. He certainly helped avoid a lot of bloodshed, but was inevitably looking to protect his own people's interests. Mandela's comment about preferring PWB was based on the idea that you knew exactly where you stood with Botha.

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I must admit I'm surprised by how one-sided the media coverage is to his death. Obviously he helped extinguish an awful regime, that has thankfully been quashed. He is undoubtedly more good than bad - but he is no saint - and doesn't quite deserve the unfettered idolism that all newspapers are currently giving him.

 

Nelson Mandela was a terrorist. He was head of the Umkhonto We Sizwe, a terrorist organisation. In 1994, he admitted giving the order for ANC security guards to fire on defenceless members of the Inkatha Party (a Zulu nationalist party) which killed 53 (Shell House massacre).

 

I'm just surprised that none of his terrorist actions have been mentioned! I thought we in the Western world deplored terrorism??!!

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Reminds me of Craig Brown's political conjugations, SG.

 

I am a freedom fighter,

You are guerilla,

He is a terrorist.

 

It's all about context and perspective. Given what Mandela was up against, I wouldn't call his actions terrorism at all.

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I think you are completely misunderstanding the ANC. A democratic party since its founding in 1912. It was never going to create a dictator. The situation in SA was very very different to that in the colonial frontline states.

There were many political parties in pre-liberation SA who were 'like' Zanu-PF - the Maoist PAC/APLA being the largest - but they were never embraced by mainstream South Africans black or white.

I don't think I'm misunderstanding the ANC. I'm actually recognising its achievement.

 

What I'm saying is that the context in which it operated was potentially volatile, which could have led to a much worse outcome than actually happened.

 

The ANC had conflicts with Inkatha, which ShotgunGold refers to, with many deaths, and it was fortunate that those conflicts, largely between the Xhosa and Zulus, didn't worsen.

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TBH I don't reckon deKlerk was that far sighted.  The year that Mandela was released an apartheid government cricket tour led by Mike (just some people dancing) Gatting went ahead, even that late in the game they were still trying to maintain the status quo.  Face it they were a bad lot, many of whom sided with the Nazis in WWII.

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One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. There is definitely a grey area and it is dependent on the circumstance.

Was the French Resistance a terrorist movement?

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There's always an apologist for Thatcher. BBC World at One ("Tories on 4" I call it) were at it yesterday. She could have done a lot more to remove apartheid, she didn't.  Denis's companies had huge interests in South Africa. Do the Math as they say today.

More complex than that. Cold war politics had a lot to do with it. The ANC were connected to the Communist party (Joe Slovo etc). South Africa was a strategic territory. If oil tankers could not go through the Suez canal then they would have to go via the Cape of Good Hope.

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I think FWDK deserves credit for being smart enough to see the writing on the wall, but not an awful lot more than that. He certainly helped avoid a lot of bloodshed, but was inevitably looking to protect his own people's interests. Mandela's comment about preferring PWB was based on the idea that you knew exactly where you stood with Botha.

It was as you say.

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I think you are completely misunderstanding the ANC. A democratic party since its founding in 1912. It was never going to create a dictator. The situation in SA was very very different to that in the colonial frontline states.

There were many political parties in pre-liberation SA who were 'like' Zanu-PF - the Maoist PAC/APLA being the largest - but they were never embraced by mainstream South Africans black or white.

I think that's naive. Mandela proved to be very different from the average African president. The current clown is a very different story. There is nothing magical about the ANC party. They are quite capable of providing a dictator. South Africa turned out not to be the bloodbath that many had expected but it is far from being what others had hoped for. If you listen to Desmond Tutu on the subject then he is very, very critical of the ANC party.

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I think that's naive. Mandela proved to be very different from the average African president. The current clown is a very different story. There is nothing magical about the ANC party. They are quite capable of providing a dictator. South Africa turned out not to be the bloodbath that many had expected but it is far from being what others had hoped for. If you listen to Desmond Tutu on the subject then he is very, very critical of the ANC party.

Don't they effectively have permanent control of South Africa too? They've been in power since 1994 and currently have 65.9% of the vote with the next nearest having a measly 16%. Not a healthy situation.

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I read that the comedian Simon Amstel has had to apologise over comments he made. All he said was Mandela wouldn't approve of the radio station 1Xtra as it was segregation. IMO this is well OTT.

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Come on! Reagan described apartheid South Africa "as the one true democracy in Africa."  Thatcher backed him!  She described anyone who thought South Africa could be run with Mandela as president as "living in cloud cuckoo land."  I'm not disputing that Mandela was what the likes of Thatch and Ronnie would describe as a "terrorist" given the situation of non whites in South Africa, armed oppression of the majority, what else was there to do?

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Come on! Reagan described apartheid South Africa "as the one true democracy in Africa."  Thatcher backed him!  She described anyone who thought South Africa could be run with Mandela as president as "living in cloud cuckoo land."  I'm not disputing that Mandela was what the likes of Thatch and Ronnie would describe as a "terrorist" given the situation of non whites in South Africa, armed oppression of the majority, what else was there to do?

Do you have a source for those quotes?

 

I've not seen them before.

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He has given black people the power to vote. He was in a party that partook in terrorist acts. The man deserves accolades. My great grandma was a member of sinn fein but that doesn't make her a supporter of terrorist acts or herself a terrorist.

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He has given black people the power to vote. He was in a party that partook in terrorist acts. The man deserves accolades. My great grandma was a member of sinn fein but that doesn't make her a supporter of terrorist acts or herself a terrorist.

 

I beg to differ, your grandma may not have been a terrorist but I'm sure she was never so naive as to believe that they were funding a piece campaign and not partly funding arms for the IRA.

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I beg to differ, your grandma may not have been a terrorist but I'm sure she was never so naive as to believe that they were funding a piece campaign and not partly funding arms for the IRA.

 

People can be naive :ph34r:

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In reply to Martyn: (I still can't get the quote function to work) Look into today's piece in the Observer and yesterday's Guardian for the quotes.

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In reply to Martyn: (I still can't get the quote function to work) Look into today's piece in the Observer and yesterday's Guardian for the quotes.

it was Bernard Ingham who spoke of cloud cuckoo land the quote was falsely attributed to her.

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In reply to Martyn: (I still can't get the quote function to work) Look into today's piece in the Observer and yesterday's Guardian for the quotes.

 well, if its in the Guardian....... :biggrin:  :biggrin:  :biggrin:

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Putting unwanted bits of Sat & Sun papers into recycle bin. Is it permissible to put 1 or 2 of the Mandela supplements in? #liberaldilemma


 



Don't want dustman to find an unread #Mandela supplement & think me a racist. But really no time to read them all. #Guardianreaderinturmoil


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What is wrong with you John?  It was widely known at the time that Thatcher was not one of Mandela biggest supporters, neither for that matter was Reagan, it was a matter of record, all the Guardian/Observer are doing is quoting that record.  The Tories have tried to airbrush their attitude to South Africa from history. BTW it's also a matter of record that the Tories on Leeds council opposed the naming of Mandela gardens in 1985, because he was a terrorist.

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Bernard Ingham/Margaret Thatcher, who could tell who spoke for whom?

 

not good enough

 

 

he said it not her

 

you cant atribute what one person says to another person

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