Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

ShotgunGold

Muslims refuse to sell alcohol and pork at M&S. Yay or Nay?

96 posts in this topic

Drinking is my religion (along with rock n roll) as such I find this sacrilegious. I may threaten to kick someone's head in if they refuse to serve me alcohol in M&S. It seems to be a good way of getting what you want. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I personally approach this in a 'you are employed to serve me products from your company. Won't serve me those products? I won't use your company. Enough of us refuse to use your company and your out of a job. Goodbye' kind of way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hindu's don't have a problem with beef, they will eat it but generally don't.

I think he's mixed Hindus up with Sikhs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for the opening post, it's a worrying precedent if other stores follow suit or if some law is brought in to follow this.

However, I'm hoping common sense will prevail. If something you believe in prevents you from doing something, you shouldn't expect that something to change for you. So if you can't follow the rules in the workplace, you shouldn't be in that job. Similar to that of my feelings on laws if the land.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The more I think about this the more I get annoyed.

 

I  use M&S on a casual basis and am not a big spender in there, however until this policy is reversed they have lost the little money they did take from my wallet.

 

This isn't about religion its about common sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be interesting to know exactly how many members of staff this involves, to see if it truly justifies the amount of huffing and puffing there will be in certain quarters in reaction to it. Not all muslim staff members will refuse to serve these products, even if they are now able to, and all it would really take is a bit of sensible management within any M & S branch affected to reallocate such staff to other duties within the store. After all, most M & S stores sell lots of other things besides food.

 

I'm sure some M & S staff must be allergic to certain products the stores sell, and are more than likely allocated duties to keep them away from such products for the sake of their health, without the earth tilting off its axis. But no one would have any reason to get annoyed about that, so it'll never be reported in the papers.

 

I'm always wary of 'dog whistle' stories like this.

 

Living in Bradford, as I have all my life, I have never once been to a shop of any kind here (or anywhere else for that matter) where a member of staff has refused to sell me something because of their religion, suggesting that this isn't really much of a story at all, regardless of the 'policies' each shop may have in place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does that alter whether it is true or not?

 

Does it only become true if the Guardian bother to cover it?

 

I'd suggest that M&S policy on pork and alcohol is something that is easily verified or debunked. And yet nobody has.

I don't doubt there's a germ of truth in there but the spin the papers, tabloids and broadsheets alike, are putting on it seems designed to deliver little in the way of facts and to ensure the outrage bus is fully laden.

It seems quite possible to employ people with differing responsibilities, I have a slight problem with heights so my employer tries to avoid sending me up in  a cherry picker, equally when working in a large department store such as M & S it's entirely possible to rota people with a genuine objection to working with alcohol or pork to work in the bakery or clothing departments. Sadly stories about employers being flexible and supportive to their staff's needs don't sell papers or bring hits to their websites whereas storm in a teacup rubbish designed to get the knee jerk brigade dribbling at the mouth with apoplexy does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing is that there's no defined case law on the subject. The likes of M&S will use the same guide as they do for disabled people and make "reasonable adjustments" to roles to avoid accusations of discrimination. The problem is that the law would only be about 60-70% likely to back them up if an employee sued because they don't want to sell something that goes against their religion. That means they take the weasel route of appeasement rather than risk a law suit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What a load of rubbish, not just any old rubbish, this is M&S rubbish.*

 

 

 

*Stolen but think its great.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be interesting to know exactly how many members of staff this involves, to see if it truly justifies the amount of huffing and puffing there will be in certain quarters in reaction to it. Not all muslim staff members will refuse to serve these products, even if they are now able to, and all it would really take is a bit of sensible management within any M & S branch affected to reallocate such staff to other duties within the store. After all, most M & S stores sell lots of other things besides food.

 

I'm sure some M & S staff must be allergic to certain products the stores sell, and are more than likely allocated duties to keep them away from such products for the sake of their health, without the earth tilting off its axis. But no one would have any reason to get annoyed about that, so it'll never be reported in the papers.

 

I'm always wary of 'dog whistle' stories like this.

 

Living in Bradford, as I have all my life, I have never once been to a shop of any kind here (or anywhere else for that matter) where a member of staff has refused to sell me something because of their religion, suggesting that this isn't really much of a story at all, regardless of the 'policies' each shop may have in place.

More than likely but given that the products are invariably wrapped up, I can't see how this could be a problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be interesting to know exactly how many members of staff this involves, to see if it truly justifies the amount of huffing and puffing there will be in certain quarters in reaction to it. Not all muslim staff members will refuse to serve these products, even if they are now able to, and all it would really take is a bit of sensible management within any M & S branch affected to reallocate such staff to other duties within the store. After all, most M & S stores sell lots of other things besides food.

 

I'm sure some M & S staff must be allergic to certain products the stores sell, and are more than likely allocated duties to keep them away from such products for the sake of their health, without the earth tilting off its axis. But no one would have any reason to get annoyed about that, so it'll never be reported in the papers.

 

I'm always wary of 'dog whistle' stories like this.

 

Living in Bradford, as I have all my life, I have never once been to a shop of any kind here (or anywhere else for that matter) where a member of staff has refused to sell me something because of their religion, suggesting that this isn't really much of a story at all, regardless of the 'policies' each shop may have in place.

 

The fact that M&S have allowed this to become a story shows the incompetence of the organisation. If you work on a till you are paid to make things go beep, regardless of what the beep means.

 

As I said earlier, I'm tolerant but m&S have blown it with allowing this to happen.

 

I expect M&S in the morning to issue a statement saying that one manager in one shop didn't understand a company policy and is being sent on a training course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fact that M&S have allowed this to become a story shows the incompetence of the organisation. If you work on a till you are paid to make things go beep, regardless of what the beep means.

 

As I said earlier, I'm tolerant but m&S have blown it with allowing this to happen.

 

I expect M&S in the morning to issue a statement saying that one manager in one shop didn't understand a company policy and is being sent on a training course.

Thinking this through for more than half a second suggests that anyone with a religious objection will not be on the till.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't doubt there's a germ of truth in there but the spin the papers, tabloids and broadsheets alike, are putting on it seems designed to deliver little in the way of facts and to ensure the outrage bus is fully laden.

It seems quite possible to employ people with differing responsibilities, I have a slight problem with heights so my employer tries to avoid sending me up in  a cherry picker, equally when working in a large department store such as M & S it's entirely possible to rota people with a genuine objection to working with alcohol or pork to work in the bakery or clothing departments. Sadly stories about employers being flexible and supportive to their staff's needs don't sell papers or bring hits to their websites whereas storm in a teacup rubbish designed to get the knee jerk brigade dribbling at the mouth with apoplexy does.

I think that all the different stores have policies in places suggests that people have used the "It's against my religion" line. Added to which the Telegraph has stories when this has happened.

 

I don't think very many people would have a problem with a Muslim who didn't want to work in the meat section because it would involve handling pork but I think it is fair to get really annoyed with someone who worked at the meat counter but refused to handle pork.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that all the different stores have policies in places suggests that people have used the "It's against my religion" line. Added to which the Telegraph has stories when this has happened.

 

I don't think very many people would have a problem with a Muslim who didn't want to work in the meat section because it would involve handling pork but I think it is fair to get really annoyed with someone who worked at the meat counter but refused to handle pork.

And you have evidence that this has happened of course?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just spitballing here, and could be well off (and to be honest, I'm hoping I am!) but could this be a hypothetical situation:

It's against the law to discriminate on terms of religion, including (I believe) in the recruitment process. Could someone whose religion prevents them from handing pork not apply for a job in a butchers, get hired because an employer was afraid they'd be sued for racial discrimination and then spend most of the time doing very little?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is the situation with registrars in England when it comes to same-sex marriage? Do staff have the right to exempt themselves from officiating a same-sex marriage if their religion forbids them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is the situation with registrars in England when it comes to same-sex marriage? Do staff have the right to exempt themselves from officiating a same-sex marriage if their religion forbids them?

No.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And you have evidence that this has happened of course?

The Daily Telegraph do. They cite examples of people working on the till refusing to serve customers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Daily Telegraph do. They cite examples of people working on the till refusing to serve customers.

Like the Christian proprietors of a B&B refusing to allow gay couple to share a room say?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just spitballing here, and could be well off (and to be honest, I'm hoping I am!) but could this be a hypothetical situation:

It's against the law to discriminate on terms of religion, including (I believe) in the recruitment process. Could someone whose religion prevents them from handing pork not apply for a job in a butchers, get hired because an employer was afraid they'd be sued for racial discrimination and then spend most of the time doing very little?

 

If the criteria for the job are laid down correctly it should not be a problem. It may be hard to word but not insurmountable.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Living in Bradford, as I have all my life, I have never once been to a shop of any kind here (or anywhere else for that matter) where a member of staff has refused to sell me something because of their religion, suggesting that this isn't really much of a story at all, regardless of the 'policies' each shop may have in place.

And I'm sure we would all like that state of affairs to continue.

 

The fact that you've never experienced this sort of thing until now, though, is precisely why this is a story, because Marks & Spencer seem to be introducing a rule (if we can believe the news) whereby someone could be on a till but refuse to serve you.

 

So for the first time in your life there is a possibility, if you shop at M & S in their food department, that you may indeed be told to search for another checkout operator to serve you because the operator at the nearest checkout doesn't want to put your pork sandwich into your carrier bag.

 

It sounds too ridiculous to be true, and I hope it is.

 

It's worth pointing out that there is nothing in the Muslim religion that bans the handling of beer bottles or certain kinds of food, and I would be surprised if most Muslims took any notice of this at all. This sort of decision that M&S have apparently made is almost certainly a bigger burden for their Muslim employees than for anyone else, mainly because there may be some Muslim zealots who demand of their colleagues that they exercise this right, now that they have been given it.

 

My fundamental objection to this is that it is yet another little element that emphasises the separateness of Muslims rather than their integration into the wider community. I don't think it's helpful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We need a law that says religion doesn't have any place in any decision making anywhere.

 

Nobody should be beholding to anybody's fairy beliefs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a minor point, you wont be refused service.  You wont be sent to another till. 

 

It will be just the same as when the cashier is under 18 and you buy booze.  A supervisor will come over and do it, and then the cashier carries on.

 

On top of that the number of cases that will happen?

 

Mountains, molehills and agendas....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been in a pub tonight run by an Iranian guy. He's a Muslim. He laughed at this story. More importantly he gave me some cider on the house.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a minor point, you wont be refused service. You wont be sent to another till.

It will be just the same as when the cashier is under 18 and you buy booze. A supervisor will come over and do it, and then the cashier carries on.

On top of that the number of cases that will happen?

Mountains, molehills and agendas....

I used to say the same sort of thing pre Rushdie.

That's utterly not the point. If I want to buy a bottle of champagne, then providing the assistant

is of legal age then I should be able to do it. Arguing otherwise is ludicrous. Unless of course we should head down the road of personal discrimination?

Would M&S support a Muslim shop assistant who refused to serve a couple of gay men as it offended their religion?

Well would they? And if not, why not?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



Rugby League World - June 2017

League Express - Mon 17th July 2017