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ckn

Food banks

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Might you be able to consider that your personal experience might not provide an accurate picture? You see, with a sample that small and self selecting, the margin of error is quite sizable. Moreover, there is a world of things going on outside your personal experience!

But I aren't arguing that most people are on the fiddle. I was raising the question as to what relevance Tory attitudes to the poor are if you are personally faced with the dilemma of buying cigs or food. I am being portrayed as if I am saying 'who gives a toss about the poor' when nothing could be further from the truth.

I just can't stand the people who buy cigs/booze instead of essentials for their kids.

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Regardless of all that Trojan, if you can't afford enough food for your family, why would you smoke?

Have you ever smoked?  I began smoking properly as a 14 year old, by the time I was 24 I realised that I wanted to give up. It took me twenty years of trying. I finally kicked the habit on 22nd March 1991.  Cigarettes are very very addictive.

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You are right, John.  People will waste some inevitably, but there are many who will waste what should go to others.  They are a minority, but there are ****s in this world. 

 

However, it is often used as a justification to say that the problem is entirely self-made and that the people working for wages (or not working) are the problem.

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I just can't stand the people who buy cigs/booze instead of essentials for their kids.

 

 

But this shifts the blame onto the poor themselves. How many of them do this? Some I'm sure, I'm not a hopeless utopian. But how many? 5% 17% 38%? I don't know and I suspect you don't either.

 

I'm sure you know some that do, examples can always be found, but look at how this thread has developed, it only took a few posts before the "blame" was firmly thrown back onto the food bank users themselves. No-one I think, has used the phrase "feckless" yet but its there in the subtext, a subtext which basically says "nowt to do with me/us it's their own fault, they spend money on fags and booze instead of food" and by saying that it makes us feel a bit better, a bit more superior doesn't it? 'cos we're not like that, we're not "feckless" we can manage our affairs.

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But I aren't arguing that most people are on the fiddle. I was raising the question as to what relevance Tory attitudes to the poor are if you are personally faced with the dilemma of buying cigs or food. I am being portrayed as if I am saying 'who gives a toss about the poor' when nothing could be further from the truth.

I just can't stand the people who buy cigs/booze instead of essentials for their kids.

I'm not saying you don't give a toss about the poor, I'm saying IDS, Dave, Gideon, Gove, and the rest of them don't give a toss about the poor.  Let's get one thing absolutely clear, this government are expecting to pay down the deficit by coming down hard on those who can least afford it, and letting those who can most afford it get off more or less scot-free.  No change there then!  As for Thatcher being a strong leader, don't make me laugh. She had the proceeds of North Sea oil and privatisation to spend keeping 4m unemployed whilst distributing tax cuts to the better off.  Thatcher was a disaster for this country and the longer time passes since her spell in power the more this becomes obvious.

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But this shifts the blame onto the poor themselves. How many of them do this? Some I'm sure, I'm not a hopeless utopian. But how many? 5% 17% 38%? I don't know and I suspect you don't either.

I'm sure you know some that do, examples can always be found, but look at how this thread has developed, it only took a few posts before the "blame" was firmly thrown back onto the food bank users themselves. No-one I think, has used the phrase "feckless" yet but its there in the subtext, a subtext which basically says "nowt to do with me/us it's their own fault, they spend money on fags and booze instead of food" and by saying that it makes us feel a bit better, a bit more superior doesn't it? 'cos we're not like that, we're not "feckless" we can manage our affairs.

I was raised very poor (money wise! !) Nobody ever told me that you don't spend money on cigs and booze instead of food, it's just blatantly obvious. Now if I can see that with my background, why can't these others who are actually much better off than we were? I will repeat; anyone who spends money on cigs or booze instead of essentials for their children is a greedy selfish waster. You can dress it up with political phrases or whatever you want but that's what they are.

I shouldn't have to but I will state the obvious, ie that I don't think most people are like this.

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I was raised very poor (money wise! !) Nobody ever told me that you don't spend money on cigs and booze instead of food, it's just blatantly obvious. Now if I can see that with my background, why can't these others who are actually much better off than we were? I will repeat; anyone who spends money on cigs or booze instead of essentials for their children is a greedy selfish waster. You can dress it up with political phrases or whatever you want but that's what they are.

I shouldn't have to but I will state the obvious, ie that I don't think most people are like this.

 

But John look at my post, how many of them? We don't know do we? But this thread is now pretty much blaming all of them.

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But John look at my post, how many of them? We don't know do we? But this thread is now pretty much blaming all of them.

 

Indeed. And then there is the practicalities of working out which people turning up at a food bank smoke or not. I mean, how do you really tell? All you can really do is ask them, and they can obviously just lie. 

 

And why are we worrying about this anyway? Isn't the real issue how awful and frankly shameful it is that for all it's wealth so many of our countries people have to rely on food banks in the first place. 

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Indeed. And then there is the practicalities of working out which people turning up at a food bank smoke or not. I mean, how do you really tell? All you can really do is ask them, and they can obviously just lie. 

 

And why are we worrying about this anyway? Isn't the real issue how awful and frankly shameful it is that for all it's wealth so many of our countries people have to rely on food banks in the first place. 

 

Exactly but right wingers are level 500 adepts at shifting the blame.

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But John look at my post, how many of them? We don't know do we? But this thread is now pretty much blaming all of them.

Well I certainly aren't. But neither am I going to pretend that these people don't exist and don't actually need food banks but accept their kindness all the same. But I am by no means saying it is endemic either.

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Well I certainly aren't. But neither am I going to pretend that these people don't exist and don't actually need food banks but accept their kindness all the same. But I am by no means saying it is endemic either.

Fair enough.

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I'm not saying you don't give a toss about the poor, I'm saying IDS, Dave, Gideon, Gove, and the rest of them don't give a toss about the poor. Let's get one thing absolutely clear, this government are expecting to pay down the deficit by coming down hard on those who can least afford it, and letting those who can most afford it get off more or less scot-free. No change there then! As for Thatcher being a strong leader, don't make me laugh. She had the proceeds of North Sea oil and privatisation to spend keeping 4m unemployed whilst distributing tax cuts to the better off. Thatcher was a disaster for this country and the longer time passes since her spell in power the more this becomes obvious.

I might agree with you but its still not the point. You have to prioritise what you spend your money on. When times are good then spend it on what the hell you like. When you are skint, cutbacks have to be made and certain things come first - regardless.

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I might agree with you but its still not the point. You have to prioritise what you spend your money on. When times are good then spend it on what the hell you like. When you are skint, cutbacks have to be made and certain things come first - regardless.

I posted a link on page 2 to an article you may or may not have read.  But one thing that jumped out of there for me is the food bank in Wigan featured in the article dished out twice as many emergency food parcels in 2013 than it did in the previous 5 years combined.

 

Is that down to priorities or people finding themselves in a situation almost over night?  The more I read the more I suspect the later, the lady running the project talked about in the article cites the scrapping of the crisis loans being around the time that demand for food parcels "exploded".

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I might agree with you but its still not the point. You have to prioritise what you spend your money on. When times are good then spend it on what the hell you like. When you are skint, cutbacks have to be made and certain things come first - regardless.

 

I agree. If it's a choice between smoking or feeding the kids then it's no contest. Any decent person would cut down on the cigs, rather than let their kids go hungry. Having been brought up in the 1950s, it was a case of make do and mend and make the most of what you could afford. We simply didn't waste anything. Nowadays, it seems more of a throwaway society. Visiting the waste tip several times over Christmas, I noticed quite a few people throwing bicycles away. In days gone by, one would look to repairing them. I know life has to move on but the art of repairing things seems to have been lost in time. Perhaps some posters do take the trouble to mend things. 

 

The debate has been interesting so far, one way or the other.

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I agree. If it's a choice between smoking or feeding the kids then it's no contest. Any decent person would cut down on the cigs, rather than let their kids go hungry. Having been brought up in the 1950s, it was a case of make do and mend and make the most of what you could afford. We simply didn't waste anything. Nowadays, it seems more of a throwaway society. Visiting the waste tip several times over Christmas, I noticed quite a few people throwing bicycles away. In days gone by, one would look to repairing them. 

 

The debate has been interesting so far, one way or the other.

As a complete aside Channel 4's Undercover Boss a few years back featured the Chief Exec from Biffa and at one of there plants they picked up on this and did say they'd try and do something about recycling things like bikes, seemingly in perfectly good order that had been ditched.

 

Speaking as a parent of two who accumalate things far quicker than we can shift things out to make room its harder than you'd think to give perfectly good toys and equipment away!

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As a complete aside Channel 4's Undercover Boss a few years back featured the Chief Exec from Biffa and at one of there plants they picked up on this and did say they'd try and do something about recycling things like bikes, seemingly in perfectly good order that had been ditched.

 

Speaking as a parent of two who accumalate things far quicker than we can shift things out to make room its harder than you'd think to give perfectly good toys and equipment away!

 

Our family supports children's hospice Derian House with outgrown clothes or toys. Without sounding like scrooge, perhaps people go overboard at Christmas with presents for their children, as one can only play with so many. I've seen children playing with a cardboard box rather than the toy. I know one thing for sure, there will be a lot of credit card hangovers these next few months.

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Is that down to priorities or people finding themselves in a situation almost over night? The more I read the more I suspect the later, the lady running the project talked about in the article cites the scrapping of the crisis loans being around the time that demand for food parcels "exploded".

I think it is down to more people finding themselves up the creek and it can happen to most people. What is the saying about most people being only 3 paychecks away from disaster? Its pretty accurate I reckon.

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As a complete aside Channel 4's Undercover Boss a few years back featured the Chief Exec from Biffa and at one of there plants they picked up on this and did say they'd try and do something about recycling things like bikes, seemingly in perfectly good order that had been ditched.

 

Speaking as a parent of two who accumalate things far quicker than we can shift things out to make room its harder than you'd think to give perfectly good toys and equipment away!

 

Discussing food, while out walking in Aspull last year I noticed a lot of what seemed abandoned allotments. Is there a genuine reason for this, as it seems such a waste of productive land? All of the allotments in use where I once lived as a kid are now no more, having been used for housing. That said, isn't there now a scheme to encourage people to let others use spare land for growing food?

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I'm not saying you don't give a toss about the poor, I'm saying IDS, Dave, Gideon, Gove, and the rest of them don't give a toss about the poor.  Let's get one thing absolutely clear, this government are expecting to pay down the deficit by coming down hard on those who can least afford it, and letting those who can most afford it get off more or less scot-free.  No change there then!  As for Thatcher being a strong leader, don't make me laugh. She had the proceeds of North Sea oil and privatisation to spend keeping 4m unemployed whilst distributing tax cuts to the better off.  Thatcher was a disaster for this country and the longer time passes since her spell in power the more this becomes obvious.

 

, I'm saying IDS, Dave, Gideon, Gove, and the rest of them don't give a toss about the poor.

 

Complete, utter and arrant nonsense. Of course, you WANT that to be true. In fact you NEED it to be true so that it gives substance to your  obsolete class-struggle view of life. 

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Our family supports children's hospice Derian House with outgrown clothes or toys. Without sounding like scrooge, perhaps people go overboard at Christmas with presents for their children, as one can only play with so many. I've seen children playing with a cardboard box rather than the toy. I know one thing for sure, there will be a lot of credit card hangovers these next few months.

Likewise, although with some of the kids stuff like prams etc that to be honest had barely been used (we made the mistake most new parents probably made and didn't plan far enough ahead for when number 2 arrived!) we did try and give to charities that would use them rather than sell them on for a fraction of there worth to people grabbing a bargain but it was hardwork finding people that took donated goods to pass the goods on rather than sell them.

 

I think it is down to more people finding themselves up the creek and it can happen to most people. What is the saying about most people being only 3 paychecks away from disaster? Its pretty accurate I reckon.

I'd be amazed if it were three for most given how hard it is to actually save above and beyond the costs of every day life.

 

Discussing food, while out walking in Aspull last year I noticed a lot of what seemed abandoned allotments. Is there a genuine reason for this, as it seems such a waste of productive land? All of the allotments in use where I once lived as a kid are now no more, having been used for housing. That said, isn't there now a scheme to encourage people to let others use spare land for growing food?

Are they the ones down by the Wrestling club on the way to the Rugby club?  I walk the dog down there quite a lot and you do see signs of life down there, I'm pretty sure there's a waiting list so I'd guess those ones are in use.  The Brick charity in Wigan mentioned in the article I linked mention allotments and cooking programmes on there volunteer page.

 

As an aside Ray, my raised beds are still to see the light of day, although I have built a new retaining wall and bought the materials to build the beds with!  ;)

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The fact you come from a rough estate is pretty irrelevant IMO, and similar to Michael Gove's belief that he's an expert on Social Work purely based upon the fact that he was adopted as a child.

That's just what his dad, Geppetto Gove, told him. ;) 

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, I'm saying IDS, Dave, Gideon, Gove, and the rest of them don't give a toss about the poor.

 

Complete, utter and arrant nonsense. Of course, you WANT that to be true. In fact you NEED it to be true so that it gives substance to your  obsolete class-struggle view of life. 

 

 

As opposed to "we're all in it together" which is nonsense of the highest order

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Discussing food, while out walking in Aspull last year I noticed a lot of what seemed abandoned allotments. Is there a genuine reason for this, as it seems such a waste of productive land? All of the allotments in use where I once lived as a kid are now no more, having been used for housing. That said, isn't there now a scheme to encourage people to let others use spare land for growing food?

In some areas, notable in London, there are long waiting lists for allotments, so I'm surprised you are seeing abandoned ones.

 

I assume the local council controls the leasing of them - perhaps they are letting them run down to make space for development.

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If anyone wants to use my garden as an allotment they can. I flipping hate gardening.

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