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ckn

NHS clinical staff cuts

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Which is how the costs of PFI hospitals are driven up. Changes to schemes pre-financial close have to go through some many departments/sign-offs it is ridiculous. I can;t recall the specific figure, but I seem to recall the uplift (build cost only, excluding fees and funding) of a PFI hospitlal about 30% higher than non-PFI.

 

The greater issue is; how do we build hospitals without PFI? The country can't afford to do it via the Treasury, certainly not the extent required.

Of course it can.  The UK government has a £100bn infrastructure budget planned out from 2015 to 2020, that's £20bn a year.  A typical big hospital costs about £500m to build from scratch but then comes with the long-term benefit of being completely mortgage/PFI free meaning no millstone around the hospital's budget for 30 odd years.

 

As I've said in plenty of other threads, we're planning to spend £40bn on HS2, that's about 100 brand new hospital builds.

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As I've said in plenty of other threads, we're planning to spend £40bn on HS2, that's about 100 brand new hospital builds.

Which to me would seem a much better use of money, plus the spread around the country would give significant and wide ranging boosts to local economies as there being built.  Along with avoiding the battle with the Tories of middle England who don't want HS2 running through there back garden and they'd take the wind out of the "can't trust tories with the NHS" argument. 

 

The fact there not building hospitals and are trying to build HS2 does make me think I'm missing the obvious!

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Which to me would seem a much better use of money, plus the spread around the country would give significant and wide ranging boosts to local economies as there being built.  Along with avoiding the battle with the Tories of middle England who don't want HS2 running through there back garden and they'd take the wind out of the "can't trust tories with the NHS" argument. 

 

The fact there not building hospitals and are trying to build HS2 does make me think I'm missing the obvious!

It'll never happen.  The only interest the Tories have in the NHS is to neutralise it as an election issue, and should they win next time continue dismantling it. Mark my words that's what they want. Many of them have said as much. And once it's gone no government will be able to afford to bring it back in its intended from.  You really can't trust the Tories with the NHS.

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Of course it can.  The UK government has a £100bn infrastructure budget planned out from 2015 to 2020, that's £20bn a year.  A typical big hospital costs about £500m to build from scratch but then comes with the long-term benefit of being completely mortgage/PFI free meaning no millstone around the hospital's budget for 30 odd years.

 

As I've said in plenty of other threads, we're planning to spend £40bn on HS2, that's about 100 brand new hospital builds.

 

Of that £20 billion, how much is for essential maintenance/must have roads and motorways? Plus, being realistic, it is a cracking headline grabber, but let us see how much of that £100bn is actually realised. Furthermore, if the capital is available why is it not being spent on hospitals (and housing for that matter)?

 

HS2 reeks of a White Elephant to me, even if it should happen, I wouldn't be surprised to see it being privately funded.

 

Don't get me wrong, an economy the size of the UK should not require private funding for basic requirements, but as it stands, for some reason, it does.

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Of course it can.  The UK government has a £100bn infrastructure budget planned out from 2015 to 2020, that's £20bn a year.  A typical big hospital costs about £500m to build from scratch but then comes with the long-term benefit of being completely mortgage/PFI free meaning no millstone around the hospital's budget for 30 odd years.

 

As I've said in plenty of other threads, we're planning to spend £40bn on HS2, that's about 100 brand new hospital builds.

I'm not a fan of HS2.  In fact, I think it's a destructive waste of money.  However, the argument you are using was used by some before the Olympics and indeed could be used about anything at any time.  The NHS swallows money in great big gulps and has the appetite to digest as much of it as is thrown at it.  That doesn't mean we should be depriving ourselves of other things in order to feed it. 

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It'll never happen.  The only interest the Tories have in the NHS is to neutralise it as an election issue, and should they win next time continue dismantling it. Mark my words that's what they want. Many of them have said as much. And once it's gone no government will be able to afford to bring it back in its intended from.  You really can't trust the Tories with the NHS.

This mantra is getting old.  The NHS changed under Labour - they brought in PFI whereas the previous Tory government refused to do so.  Yet I don't see you suggesting Labour wanted to dismantle the NHS.

 

The NHS needs wholesale reform irrespective of some outmoded leftwing dogma. 

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It'll never happen.  The only interest the Tories have in the NHS is to neutralise it as an election issue, and should they win next time continue dismantling it. Mark my words that's what they want. Many of them have said as much. And once it's gone no government will be able to afford to bring it back in its intended from.  You really can't trust the Tories with the NHS.

This is where we'll disagree, you continue to make it a party political point and I don't see how when none of the three parties can be trusted with the NHS in my opinion.

 

You seem to gloss over the last Labour government loading up the NHS with PFI debt whilst starting the ball rolling on follies such as HS2.  So what will happen if Labour return to power in 2015 is it all going to be rosy in the NHS garden or is it set to be saddled with more debt it can ill afford?

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There will be a sever shortage of nurses soon as budget cuts mean that the funding for student nurses is getting cut left, right and centre and retiring nurses will not have replacements coming through the system.

 

Also once a nurse is qualified opportunities for development are being cut, so you finish up with fewer less trained nurses looking after your beloved when the time comes that you really need the absolutely brilliant NHS.

 

Of course those with a few bob can help the private health care system by buying expensive insurance to cover their costs using NHS employees to sort them out privately.

 

Time to make the medical profession to make a decision, either all private or all NHS, if if you are all private then the NHS dictates the price you are hired for. That price will always be half of what an NHS employee is paid.

 

Long lists I here JohnM cry, no, a reality on worth to the whole society will be the wake up call.

 

Actually I would ban all private medicine.

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There will be a sever shortage of nurses soon as budget cuts mean that the funding for student nurses is getting cut left, right and centre and retiring nurses will not have replacements coming through the system.

 

Not according to Health Education England, which is increasing its nurse training provision by 9% this year (as referred to in this blog: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25428847 )

 

 

Also once a nurse is qualified opportunities for development are being cut, so you finish up with fewer less trained nurses looking after your beloved when the time comes that you really need the absolutely brilliant NHS.

Where is the evidence to back up this claim?  Given that the government is increasing the nurse training provision the opposite would appear more likely to be the case.

 

A high number of employees does not equate to a good service.  The reviews and discussions about the NHS that have taken place over the last 12 months have focused on the quality and appropriateness of provision, not its breadth.  Nurses who show no compassion should be fired as they are there to care for patients not neglect them.  LIkewise, hospitals which cannot organise their shift systems to provide adequate staffing levels over a weekend, something that has been the case ever since I've been alive anyway (and I'm in my 40s), should be challenged and made to change.

 

Changes to the NHS have to be both systemic and cultural as both have been problematic for decades but no government has had the political will/nerve to face the problems head on.  Thus, the crises that have been exposed over the last year or so in various Trusts provide an ideal opportunity to tackle these matters and that will require possibly quite significant changes to the NHS, in hospitals and outlying services.

 

 

Time to make the medical profession to make a decision, either all private or all NHS, if if you are all private then the NHS dictates the price you are hired for. That price will always be half of what an NHS employee is paid.

There have been private elements to the NHS for years: prescriptions, dental treatment, abortions past a certain time limit (used to be 12 weeks), etc.  Once upon a time, NHS hospitals used to benefit from having a number of private patients within their walls but I think a Labour government abolished this practice.  Nowadays hospitals make some money via car parking charges instead.  I think I prefer the private hospital beds!  There will never be enough public money to fund the NHS because it is simply too expensive.  So we have to make the NHS as efficient as possible in order to continue to afford it. 

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Not according to Health Education England, which is increasing its nurse training provision by 9% this year (as referred to in this blog: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25428847 )

 

 

 

My wife is a senior university lecturer in Nursing so is right in the front line of nurse training, so I think she knows the absolute reality of the situation.

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If you think the Lib Dems are not bending over and taking it for the fifteen minutes, go back to their 2010 manifesto section regarding tuition fees.

The Tories have also had to sacrifice some of their policies.  That is the price you pay when in coalition.

 

I remember prior to the last election there being a lot of chatter in the media and on forums about how great proportional representation would be.  I wonder what such people's opinion of that electoral approach is now because with PR we would get endless coalitions in which nobody could really promise anything as compromises always have to be made when in coalition.

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My wife is a senior university lecturer in Nursing so is right in the front line of nurse training, so I think she knows the absolute reality of the situation.

If that is the case then she will already know that the government is planning a 9% increase in nurse training places.

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If that is the case then she will already know that the government is planning a 9% increase in nurse training places.

 The government can say what they want, there is a shortage of clinical work areas willing to offer placements to students due to their budgets being cut by your shyster mates in Downing Street.

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What was your point?

I maybe put the wrong link on.  There was an item on Today  from an independent US health expert who said that currently the NHS was one of the best health services in the world and far superior to anything in the US.  But the US model, where insurance companies make money from people's suffering is the one the Tories would like to adopt and the one their "reforms"  :shout:  :shout:  :shout:  :shout:  :shout: are designed to make possible

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The Tories have also had to sacrifice some of their policies.  That is the price you pay when in coalition.

 

I remember prior to the last election there being a lot of chatter in the media and on forums about how great proportional representation would be.  I wonder what such people's opinion of that electoral approach is now because with PR we would get endless coalitions in which nobody could really promise anything as compromises always have to be made when in coalition.

 

Bearing in mind the Lib Dems campaigned, strongly, with the tuition fees cuts, which corresponding Conservative campaign based policy have they sacrificed? 

 

There are nice to have policies and there are 'this is an election promise' I wouldn't call the tuition fees policy the former.

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I maybe put the wrong link on.  There was an item on Today  from an independent US health expert who said that currently the NHS was one of the best health services in the world and far superior to anything in the US.  But the US model, where insurance companies make money from people's suffering is the one the Tories would like to adopt and the one their "reforms"  :shout:  :shout:  :shout:  :shout:  :shout: are designed to make possible

You put the link in that you intended, I just didn't know how you were relating it to the discussion.

 

Your comment is an indication of your political ideology rather than truth.  The Tories have no more intention of privatising the NHS than any other party.  Why people on the left take this polarised position I don't know as all it serves to do is stop the NHS from evolving into a better service.

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Bearing in mind the Lib Dems campaigned, strongly, with the tuition fees cuts, which corresponding Conservative campaign based policy have they sacrificed? 

 

If memory serves they've had to compromise on tax promises haven't they?  Not sure corporation tax was cut, although I may be mistaken.  They haven't (yet) opted out of the EU charter of fundamental rights or restored sovereignty in relation to social and employment legislation and the EU aspect was a fairly big rallying cry of the Tories pre-election.

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If memory serves they've had to compromise on tax promises haven't they?  Not sure corporation tax was cut, although I may be mistaken.  They haven't (yet) opted out of the EU charter of fundamental rights or restored sovereignty in relation to social and employment legislation and the EU aspect was a fairly big rallying cry of the Tories pre-election.

 

Which tax promises? They have reduced corporation tax, which was part of their manifesto. They referenced a married/couples allowance, which appears to be on its way.

 

When it comes to matters of the EU, I treat their words with contempt, as I do with all political parties. I am tired of hearing how there will be a referendum if the UK public really wants to leave/devolve itself. All the while knowing that we will never, nor be able to afford to leave. In fact, I will go on record now, that they will say that negotiations are ongoing to opt-out of EU wide employment legislation, or whatever cause du jour is doing the rounds come 2015.

 

PS

 

Apologies for going off-topic.

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There were 44 “very senior managers” made redundant between August 2012 and 31 March 2013, the NAO said, with an average pay-off of £277,273. Individual payments ranged from £33,771 to £578,470. But 2,200 staff made redundant between May 2010 and September 2012 were subsequently re-employed in the NHS, according to the latest NAO report into the health reforms.


 


http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/nhs-redundancies-cost-11bn-but-more-skilled-staff-are-needed-8698515.html


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You put the link in that you intended, I just didn't know how you were relating it to the discussion.

 

Your comment is an indication of your political ideology rather than truth.  The Tories have no more intention of privatising the NHS than any other party.  Why people on the left take this polarised position I don't know as all it serves to do is stop the NHS from evolving into a better service.

They're already doing it!  They've never believed in a state run health service any more than they believed in a state run railway system.  If it doesn't make a profit for private investors they're not interested - you only have to look at the scandal of the East Coast Main Line.

They are dismantling the NHS piece by piece sureptitiously all the time saying "the NHS is safe in our hands."  My own experience documented earlier on this thread, plus that of friends and relatives tells its own story.  The implication of the delays are "if you don't like it - go private."

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Just popping in to see how things are in your doublethink world. 

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Just popping in to see how things are in your doublethink world. 

Perhaps if you were at the sharp end like me, worried about your eyesight and having appointments cancelled, or my wife waiting for Xray results on her knee for 6  weeks, you'd change your flippant tune John.

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You put the link in that you intended, I just didn't know how you were relating it to the discussion.

Your comment is an indication of your political ideology rather than truth. The Tories have no more intention of privatising the NHS than any other party. Why people on the left take this polarised position I don't know as all it serves to do is stop the NHS from evolving into a better service.

The NHS has already been privatised. The groundwork was laid in the 80s, the project taken forward by Blair and Brown and now completed by the coalition

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