Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Phil

Gove's take on WW1

291 posts in this topic

Unfortunately if Scotland go for Independence then this lot will be free for years to try and drag this country back to its even more class based past.

 

If Scotland vote for out then it could well mean I'm out, I'm not for living in a country were the poorest are considered dispensable.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately if Scotland go for Independence then this lot will be free for years to try and drag this country back to its even more class based past.

 

If Scotland vote for out then it could well mean I'm out, I'm not for living in a country were the poorest are considered dispensable.  

I've often wondered, assuming Scotland do vote for independence, what's to stop other parts of England voting to join them? Apparently Newcastle is already forging stronger links with Edinburgh and Glasgow.  What's to stop Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool following suit?  The problem in England is that too much power is concentrated in London, to the detriment of those of us who live north of the Trent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've often wondered, assuming Scotland do vote for independence, what's to stop other parts of England voting to join them? Apparently Newcastle is already forging stronger links with Edinburgh and Glasgow.  What's to stop Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool following suit?  The problem in England is that too much power is concentrated in London, to the detriment of those of us who live north of the Trent.

 

I read the Guardian today as well. :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sure there were many times throughout history when we were the aggressors, but in this case the aggressor was Germany.

There was a massive arms race between both countries before the war with them both expanding their navies hugely

It was the royal navy who introduced the forethought to the world

Admiral Fisher introduced a series of fast lightly armoured shallow draught battle cruisers glorioud, courageous, and furious which were meant to insert at great speed heavy fire power into the Baltic in support of amphibious landings 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like Gove is stalling till his big-money party official can dissociate himself from the financial mismanagement of the Kings Free School in Bradford.

 

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/main-topics/education/exclusive-mystery-of-scandal-hit-bradford-academy-s-leadership-deepens-1-6351947

 

 

 

When he is eventually obliged to investigate the admin of the school, he might first seek an answer  to why the headmaster (who is also the founder) uses two names .... Sajid Raza and Sajid Hussain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like Gove is stalling till his big-money party official can dissociate himself from the financial mismanagement of the Kings Free School in Bradford.

 

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/main-topics/education/exclusive-mystery-of-scandal-hit-bradford-academy-s-leadership-deepens-1-6351947

 

 

 

When he is eventually obliged to investigate the admin of the school, he might first seek an answer  to why the headmaster (who is also the founder) uses two names .... Sajid Raza and Sajid Hussain.

Is one of them his stage name for when he does the club's ?

Fills the stage with flags from what I've heard.

 

But you are right free schools are extremely questionable on just about any level you can think of

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But you are right free schools are extremely questionable on just about any level you can think of

Why?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Social Darwinism was prevalent at the time, as can be seen by a popular quote that one Britishman was the equal of two Germans, five French and ten blacks... Really sounds like the Social Darwinism was right from the heart of Berlin, although yes there were courses in such in that era at universities in Germany. Again Gove is pushing his own agenda here.

That would be jingoism and / or racism depending on how seriously the view was held but not social darwinism. Social Darwinism implies that the "unfit" should be left to die as they would only drag society down with them. You could seriously believe that blacks were lesser beings but think that the white man was obligated to solve their problems for them. It was also a very common view at the time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Protecting their empires.

You'll note that the winners of the first world war had to be forced by armed uprising after armed uprising to give up theirs.

If you are talking about France then yes they did but I'm struggling to name any of the wars that forced the British to abandon their Empire. There was Ireland and the USA and that's about it really. We had problems in India but "armed uprising" is a pretty poor summary of Gandhi's independence campaign. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you are talking about France then yes they did but I'm struggling to name any of the wars that forced the British to abandon their Empire. There was Ireland and the USA and that's about it really. We had problems in India but "armed uprising" is a pretty poor summary of Gandhi's independence campaign. 

 

Kenya

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kenya

We were leaving anyway. The Mau Mau rebellion just prolonged our stay. We defeated them then promptly left. The Mau Mau certainly didn't force us to leave. We stayed to make sure that they were not the people that we handed over power to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Really? Whatever happened to  parental responsibility?

 

Oh ffs!!a word!!, ok, oh dear this man is in charge of our children's education

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gove says that it was left wing writers who attacked the generals in WWI as donkeys, in fact it was a writer who could hardly be described as left wing at all

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Clark

The "lions led by donkeys" line is much older than either Blackadder or Alan Clarke. That Alan Clarke agreed with it doesn't mean that it didn't originate with the left nor that it wasn't popular with left wing academics.

 

It's rather worrying that a sitcom is the main source of information on a major historical event for most people especially one that rather deliberately plays fast-and-lose with the actual history. Most historians tend to view WW1 as a terrible slaughter but don't put the blame on the generals so much as the politicians further up the food chain. Haig is a rather convenient scapegoat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's rather worrying that a sitcom is the main source of information on a major historical event for most people

 

There is absolutely no evidence that this is true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is absolutely no evidence that this is true.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cambridge-history-professor-hits-back-at-michael-goves-ignorant-attack-9037502.html

Even the college professor who slammed Gove seems to think that it shapes the way people think about the war.

 

Professor Evans agreed with Mr Gove that the debate about the war is too much shaped by popular culture. “I think the Government has got it about right. I think the Department for Culture Media and Sport has made money available for groups and institutions to mark the war in any way they see fit. That is the right thing to do. I don’t think anyone should try and impose their political view on the public. The kind of debate we are having now is the right thing to do.”

Professor Gary Sheffield of the University of Wolverhampton, who was praised by Mr Gove for his recent study of Field Marshall Sir Douglas Haig, the Commander-in-Chief of the British Expeditionary Force whose Western Front offensives cost nearly one million British lives, said it was not a question of ideology.

Mr Gove’s politics and mine are pretty different but the view he has put forward is right. What he was wrong about however is that there is a left-right split – there isn’t,” he said.

The publicity that has been kicking off around the centenary has reflected the Black Adder point of view although he (Mr Gove) is wrong to single it out – it is satire not documentary.”

Professor Sheffield said mainstream historians had been revising their opinions of the conflict over the past three decades overturning the “bad war” theory which had taken hold in the 1930s.

“The war was fought for defensive reasons and Europe would have been a very dark place if Germany had not been defeated. Imperial Germany wasn’t as bad as Nazi Germany but it was bad enough,” he said. “We don’t want this year to be a jingoistic carnival of celebration but rather a sober understanding that what Britain was fighting for was important. It was a war against aggression,” he added.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Even the college professor who slammed Gove seems to think that it shapes the way people think about the war.

 

That's not actually evidence that Blackadder is the main source of information for the majority of people.

 

Have another go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's not actually evidence that Blackadder is the main source of information for the majority of people.

 

Have another go.

I think we're splitting hairs here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we're splitting hairs here.

 

Not really.  Blackadder didn't invent the view (correct in my opinion) that the soldiers, most of whom were working class canon folder, were let down massively by the generals and politicians and that the war was brutal, desperate and futile, and led to a worthless peace that could not hold given the weak state in which Europe had been left.  There is little to celebrate - and pretending that it was fought for noble reasons similar to those of the Second World War is as major and ignorant rewriting of history as if we suddenly claimed the Second Opium War was fought in order to stop Chairman Mao.

 

EDIT

And, fundamentally, I think the reason why Blackadder Goes Forth was so popular was, firstly, because it is a very good series although possibly not the best Blackadder series and, secondly, because it reflected rather than created the view held by most people of the first world war.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you are talking about France then yes they did but I'm struggling to name any of the wars that forced the British to abandon their Empire. There was Ireland and the USA and that's about it really. We had problems in India but "armed uprising" is a pretty poor summary of Gandhi's independence campaign.

Didn't the Usa force the UK to give up much of what was left of its Empire after WWII or not be given a very expensive loan?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not really.  Blackadder didn't invent the view (correct in my opinion) that the soldiers, most of whom were working class canon folder, were let down massively by the generals and politicians and that the war was brutal, desperate and futile, and led to a worthless peace that could not hold given the weak state in which Europe had been left.  There is little to celebrate - and pretending that it was fought for noble reasons similar to those of the Second World War is as major and ignorant rewriting of history as if we suddenly claimed the Second Opium War was fought in order to stop Chairman Mao.

 

EDIT

And, fundamentally, I think the reason why Blackadder Goes Forth was so popular was, firstly, because it is a very good series although possibly not the best Blackadder series and, secondly, because it reflected rather than created the view held by most people of the first world war.

It didn't invent it but it pushed the idea to the forefront to the point that Joe Public thinks that this is the consensus view (although Blackadder had nothing to say about the "weak peace"). In fact most historians say that although the troops suffered badly and it was a terrible war, the generals were not as out of touch, uncaring or insane as the series makes them out to be. The problem was that the politicians (which Blackadder almost totally ignores) were to blame for ordering actions that were doomed to failure. 

 

Again Blackadder pushes the view that the Germans were no worse any other greedy European state and were no real threat to anybody. Current thinking among historians is that Germany was a much more aggressive militarist state than anybody else and were pretty unpleasant to those who they occupied.

 

Blackadder is a great sitcom but it's not a lot more accurate than a Mel Gibson epic when it comes to history. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn't the Usa force the UK to give up much of what was left of its Empire after WWII or not be given a very expensive loan?

 

Yes but we insisted on holding on to the jewel in the crown ... Wales.

;):tongue:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn't the Usa force the UK to give up much of what was left of its Empire after WWII or not be given a very expensive loan?

No.

 

The USA certainly didn't want the Empire to continue but the decision to abandon the Empire had already been made. The Labour party came to power and they had never been imperialists. The mood of the British public was such that even the Tories were enthusiastic decolonisers. The League of Empire Loyalists were no more than a fringe organisation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The "lions led by donkeys" line is much older than either Blackadder or Alan Clarke. That Alan Clarke agreed with it doesn't mean that it didn't originate with the left nor that it wasn't popular with left wing academics.

 

It's rather worrying that a sitcom is the main source of information on a major historical event for most people especially one that rather deliberately plays fast-and-lose with the actual history. Most historians tend to view WW1 as a terrible slaughter but don't put the blame on the generals so much as the politicians further up the food chain. Haig is a rather convenient scapegoat.

Blackadder is not used as the main source of information

Neither is oh what a lovely war

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not really.  Blackadder didn't invent the view (correct in my opinion) that the soldiers, most of whom were working class canon folder, were let down massively by the generals and politicians and that the war was brutal, desperate and futile, and led to a worthless peace that could not hold given the weak state in which Europe had been left.  There is little to celebrate - and pretending that it was fought for noble reasons similar to those of the Second World War is as major and ignorant rewriting of history as if we suddenly claimed the Second Opium War was fought in order to stop Chairman Mao.

 

EDIT

And, fundamentally, I think the reason why Blackadder Goes Forth was so popular was, firstly, because it is a very good series although possibly not the best Blackadder series and, secondly, because it reflected rather than created the view held by most people of the first world war.

The second world war wasn't fought for a noble cause

Unless you were a Nazi in which case you thought your cause was noble

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



Rugby League World - June 2017

League Express - Mon 17th July 2017