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absentee thoughtlord

Get in there, Marwan!

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I would agree that for the sport to thrive, promote itself and gain maximum exposure we need a strong SL and that should be a priority....

 

Never-the-less the lower levels need to also be viable in whatever form otherwise the sport will be weaker to weather the competition of the entertainment and increasingly global sporting world in the long run.  All I am saying is that championship level needs to be maintained as much as possible whilst recognizing that the whole sport needs as strong a SL as possible..

 

Very interesting thoughts from you John.

 

I would ask you to consider the utopia that prioritising Superleague whilst maintaining the level of the championship actually is??

 

If RFL/SLE find a few £thousand spare, then priority dictates it is given to Superleague, yet the policy of "maintaining the championship as much as possible"  calls out for that money to be given to the second tier.

 

I just think you can't have it both ways. If £100 spent in superleague makes the game that bit stronger, whilst £100 spent on a championship club maintains their level then it's a no brainer.

 

For the good of the game put that money in Superleague? Why try to maintain failure??

 

For me the M62 has some big clubs who can attract and develop all the resources the game can get it's hands on regardless of championship clubs. It's not that far from Doncaster to Wakefield, Keighley to Bradford, York to Leeds, Leigh to Wigan, Rochdale to Salford.

 

Give people choice, let Rochdale people watch Rochdale and let those fans run the club. But why prop up clubs with money that could be far better spent in Superleague???

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I don't disagree John, if a championship club went out of business in Rochdale and Oldham there may be no

immediate effect on Salford's crowds.

 

But the trick seems to be that where Championship clubs fail to attract fans, Superleague clubs can pick up "occasional fans and newbies" and turn them into regulars as you say.

 

If you look at Bradford, they deliberately marketed to the Batley area and parked their season ticket bus in the town. As you enter the centre of Hunslet, Leeds have a big hoarding up advertising Season Tickets.

 

I'm all for Superleague clubs casting their net far and wide and I think the M60 opens up a massive catchment area that in terms of travelling to  Barton is not that "far and wide" time wise. They say Everton get a massive amount of support from North Wales.

 

If Hunslet shut down 400 fans would be lost to the game but as time moved on the area would become a natural  hinterland of Rhinos support, if it already hasn't become so.

Hunslet is in the same city as Rhinos though, quite a different proposition.

 

Bradford marketing themselves in Batley is different from Salford marketing themselves to a city where RL is not really known.

 

People in Batley know what RL is, Bulldogs are part of the reason why they do.

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It is interesting how threads develop and change but recent events surrounding the Good Doctor were brought home to me when I found a recording of "The First Kangaroos" a film made in Australia I think. It contained an awful lot of portrayals of the Aussies as squeaky clean sportsmen who only played for fun and the English as a bunch of dirty largely unfit players and an incompetent  league run by sharks. However, there is an actor  Chris Haywood who played James Giltinan and he spent his whole time trying to get the English to sell their game and they spent a similar amount of time trying not to. Now of course the Aussies don't wear white hats in contrast to our ebony titfers and though some people would like to think the RFL are the incompetent/sharks the truth doesn't come in easy and palatable or manageable units. But the James Giltinan  character was treated as a johnny come lately, a humorous figure, someone to be dismissed or ignored and as someone who doesn't quite understand. Now, where have I heard that song before?

PS for those of you who don't know who James Giltinan was, shame on you!

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Very interesting thoughts from you John.

 

I would ask you to consider the utopia that prioritising Superleague whilst maintaining the level of the championship actually is??

 

If RFL/SLE find a few £thousand spare, then priority dictates it is given to Superleague, yet the policy of "maintaining the championship as much as possible"  calls out for that money to be given to the second tier.

 

I just think you can't have it both ways. If £100 spent in superleague makes the game that bit stronger, whilst £100 spent on a championship club maintains their level then it's a no brainer.

 

For the good of the game put that money in Superleague? Why try to maintain failure??

 

For me the M62 has some big clubs who can attract and develop all the resources the game can get it's hands on regardless of championship clubs. It's not that far from Doncaster to Wakefield, Keighley to Bradford, York to Leeds, Leigh to Wigan, Rochdale to Salford.

 

Give people choice, let Rochdale people watch Rochdale and let those fans run the club. But why prop up clubs with money that could be far better spent in Superleague???

 

Doncaster is a totally different hinterland from Wakefield despite their geographical proximity. Their potential hinterland extends to Thorne, Scunthorpe and north Notts. it would be both folly and delusion to abandon Doncaster and hope that their support migrates to Wakefield. York and Leeds are similarly different catchment areas. The rural areas to the North and East of York are too far removed from Leeds. Bradford and Keighley also. If Keighley ever grew big enough as a club all the areas to the north of the town as far as Skipton and beyond are in their orbit. The difficulties of transportation between Keighley and Bradford make the 10 mile actual distance seem a very great deal farther than that.

 

Leigh and Wigan are very close but have an historic rivalry and local loyalties.

 

Your vision of a ring fenced SL, the same now and forever is regressive and will keep the game small and insignificant. the aim should be to at least double the size of the top tier by creating big clubs in such places as Sheffield and York and Doncaster, yea even unto North and South Wales, a second London club, a midlands club or two, Gloucester and Hemel and reclaiming for the game such former strong areas as Oldham, Cumbria, and Halifax.

 

To ever expand to dominate the country including much of the north, it is not enough to just fund 10 or 12 clubs, with one overseas, and hope these clubs will keep the sport relevant or even increase it's reach.

 

To do that the lower level teams must receive funding to help them and thereby the game grow bigger. It is not enough to settle for the status quo of a small number league and hope it will be enough to keep away the competition from RU and soccer.

 

I have a feeling that Sky feel that way too. That's why they have enthusiastically endorsed the 3 x 8 format, flawed as it may be, and are returning to televising the lower level of the game.

 

I also think that a reason why they have doubled the size of their investment in RL is twofold. The first is to stabilise the creakier members of SL and the second is to make money available to enable Championship level teams to step up and increase the numbers of areas with an interest on reaching SL and thereby increase their suscriber base. So, I think you can have it both ways despite your protestations to the contrary.

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Doncaster is a totally different hinterland from Wakefield despite their geographical proximity. Their potential hinterland extends to Thorne, Scunthorpe and north Notts. it would be both folly and delusion to abandon Doncaster and hope that their support migrates to Wakefield. York and Leeds are similarly different catchment areas.

 

You've no grasp of reality or history, I went down the Donny Road from Belle Vue the other week and quickly stopped off at Tattersfield, one can still pick out the bankings. It was this close proximity to the RL heartland that caused the club to set up. It was what enabled them to borrow players. I also had a call at Flixborough last week and to call Scunthorpe a potential major catchment area for Donny is just making it up, as for "potential" they've been trying for over 60 years. Oddly this seems to make you champion, them despite London having tried for only 30 years and achieved much more.

 

I keep an eye out for where Leeds fans come from, one doing the half time games said they'd come from York. They must have avoided the roadblock that prevents anyone in York going to Headingley.

 

Putting people in boxes and drawing circles around clubs is a regular myth on here to justify the unjustifiable.

 

The reason people in Donny know Rugby league is the same reason they know the game in Scunthorpe, they've heard of Leeds, Wigan and Hull and seen them on the TV and BTW there's a bridge close to Scunthorpe that goes to Hull. Buy a map and keep up!

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It is interesting how threads develop and change but recent events surrounding the Good Doctor were brought home to me when I found a recording of "The First Kangaroos" a film made in Australia I think.

 

Well debates develop but often there's nowhere for that to go but back to the usual arguments. For me Mr. Koukash has a load of money but whether any of it will do any good other than preserve Salford we shall see.

 

What he's up to trying to buy Oldham and Swinton I don't know, Maybe Rochdale weren't for sale. Possibly these clubs would not cost him much to run in the Championship. Maybe at the end of the day the good Doctor is just trying to preserve the past if his £Millions can't affect the future much??.

 

The first Kangaroos were indeed there to make money hence they didn't bother to train much but played 45 games all over the country. The film badly upset a lady I met some time ago as it badly portrayed her grandfather who was a gentleman, played I think by Dennis Waterman. Shame on you if you cannot name that player?

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It is interesting how threads develop and change but recent events surrounding the Good Doctor were brought home to me when I found a recording of "The First Kangaroos" a film made in Australia I think. It contained an awful lot of portrayals of the Aussies as squeaky clean sportsmen who only played for fun and the English as a bunch of dirty largely unfit players and an incompetent  league run by sharks. However, there is an actor  Chris Haywood who played James Giltinan and he spent his whole time trying to get the English to sell their game and they spent a similar amount of time trying not to. Now of course the Aussies don't wear white hats in contrast to our ebony titfers and though some people would like to think the RFL are the incompetent/sharks the truth doesn't come in easy and palatable or manageable units. But the James Giltinan  character was treated as a johnny come lately, a humorous figure, someone to be dismissed or ignored and as someone who doesn't quite understand. Now, where have I heard that song before?

PS for those of you who don't know who James Giltinan was, shame on you!

I'm sorry, but what on Earth are you talking about?

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Does Brian Barwick do anything at the RFL apart from issue press releases?..

Yes, he is non executive chairman. What else do you need to know?

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Just catching up after holiday and as usual Gingerjon and Dave T talking the most sense.

I will make a prediction though. If the clubs do gain control of SL we will be back to the state we were pre Lewis, bankrupt.

Does anyone think the club chairmen will agree on anything? How many of these people have driven a club into the ground and have had to leave over the last 20 years?

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Hunslet is in the same city as Rhinos though, quite a different proposition.

 

Bradford marketing themselves in Batley is different from Salford marketing themselves to a city where RL is not really known.

 

People in Batley know what RL is, Bulldogs are part of the reason why they do.

Just an example of how I got into RL, I am from Batley and had not even heard of Rugby league until i was 14! I played union at Batley high school and RU for Morley.

That changed one day when the batley players came to the school and offered free tickets, we went along and one game was enough!! We all wanted to play RL and the game became my obsession! When Carl Gibson signed for Leeds I went to watch and then hardly ever watched Batley again.

Its marketing I suppose , we have all taken people to games and see them fall in love with it, often at various levels of the game

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Hello Parksider, It's Albert from my desktop background! :bye:

"Well debates develop ....." Yes threads do seem to have a life of their own, don't they?

 

"I'm sorry, but what on Earth are you talking about?" Simmo, I'm sorry you don't understand but that's life, isn't it?

 

I think the debate about SL v Championship is a bit academic given the new funding arrangement! One thing that is true is that, if we lose any more clubs it will be used against us in the press in one of those M62 " I made this up on my way to work..." pieces that litter what little coverage we get. Up until the Good Doctor we were seen in a bad light or no light at all! It is not just about MK we need to find another Peter Deakin and make space for people like Lionel Hurst.

The reason we have most of these interminable debates is because we lack press coverage that creates interest, that creates crowds, that creates sponsors but at least we can blame someone somewhere.

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Just an example of how I got into RL, I am from Batley and had not even heard of Rugby league until i was 14! I played union at Batley high school and RU for Morley.

That changed one day when the batley players came to the school and offered free tickets, we went along and one game was enough!! We all wanted to play RL and the game became my obsession! When Carl Gibson signed for Leeds I went to watch and then hardly ever watched Batley again.

Its marketing I suppose , we have all taken people to games and see them fall in love with it, often at various levels of the game

 

Cheers Ian, I think the best thing to do is always to ask people, talk to them and listen to what they say. Not just make something up that suits a desire to make out that if Championship clubs decline so will the game.

 

The stats just don't back that up for every championship fan that doesn't go to his local club anymore there's four or five fans choosing Superleague.

 

I spoke to two Barnsley lads at the cup final who said they followed Sheffield until their demise and then switched to Leeds for the Hetherington connection.

 

For most people it's just a game, just entertainment and they are happy to just choose somewhere to watch and are more likely to watch if it's a better standard of RL and bigger club. More likely to travel too.

 

It's a terrible myth that stifles honest debate to say nobody from Leigh watches Wigan and nobody from Halifax watches Bradford, and the 9,000 at the Fiji match were all from Rochdale. My dentist said he was from west cumbria and I asked him if he liked RL. He said yes so I said do you watch Leeds, he said no Bradford as his kids liked the Bullmania stuff at the time.

 

I would agree marketing has a lot to do with it and for me Marketing needs a top class product presented in top class surroundings. Superleague needs the money to develop these things, when you have a threadbare Wakefield and Bradford in pokey old dumps you can see what the problem is.

 

Replacing them with small clubs isn't the way to sort the problem, it's the way to make it worse. To be fair Marwan wants to buy Salford's modern stadia, and wants to improve the team so he does tick the boxes.

 

So as you say he's a lot of hard marketing to do. Lets see if he does it or if he just pays for the empty seats??

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The new structure and the financial rewards on the face of it seems to be a fair one for all levels of the professional game.It would be a backward step for all the resources to go to 12 clubs.There are twice as many clubs at the semi-pro level and it would be a travesty to let these clubs die.The biggest problem for a number of these clubs is that some of them are managed to a level that SL clubs are -some good and some badly.

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Cheers Ian, I think the best thing to do is always to ask people, talk to them and listen to what they say. Not just make something up that suits a desire to make out that if Championship clubs decline so will the game.

 

The stats just don't back that up for every championship fan that doesn't go to his local club anymore there's four or five fans choosing Superleague.

 

I spoke to two Barnsley lads at the cup final who said they followed Sheffield until their demise and then switched to Leeds for the Hetherington connection.

 

For most people it's just a game, just entertainment and they are happy to just choose somewhere to watch and are more likely to watch if it's a better standard of RL and bigger club. More likely to travel too.

 

It's a terrible myth that stifles honest debate to say nobody from Leigh watches Wigan and nobody from Halifax watches Bradford, and the 9,000 at the Fiji match were all from Rochdale. My dentist said he was from west cumbria and I asked him if he liked RL. He said yes so I said do you watch Leeds, he said no Bradford as his kids liked the Bullmania stuff at the time.

 

I would agree marketing has a lot to do with it and for me Marketing needs a top class product presented in top class surroundings. Superleague needs the money to develop these things, when you have a threadbare Wakefield and Bradford in pokey old dumps you can see what the problem is.

 

Replacing them with small clubs isn't the way to sort the problem, it's the way to make it worse. To be fair Marwan wants to buy Salford's modern stadia, and wants to improve the team so he does tick the boxes.

 

So as you say he's a lot of hard marketing to do. Lets see if he does it or if he just pays for the empty seats??

Bullmania showed what can be achieved at a dump of a ground! RL needs to constantly push forward as we know there are forces always pushing us back! I think the game as a whole is too stagnant which causes the clubs and players to stagnate. We need to aim high and accept we might not quite get there, not aim in the middle and get even lower.

We all needed to reach the heights of Wigan and bradford not wait for them to come back to us! Alot of people sat up and took note of Wigan such as Richard Branson! I know they collapsed under a mountain of debt but just because things did not work once it does not mean the same will happen in the future! A great example of this is the catalans, if we just said we have tried France and it did not work just think what we would have missed!!!

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There are twice as many clubs at the semi-pro level and it would be a travesty to let these clubs die.The biggest problem for a number of these clubs is that some of them are managed to a level that SL clubs are -some good and some badly.

 

They don't die, they find their real level unless they are propped up. Whose died??

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Just catching up after holiday and as usual Gingerjon and Dave T talking the most sense.

I will make a prediction though. If the clubs do gain control of SL we will be back to the state we were pre Lewis, bankrupt.

Does anyone think the club chairmen will agree on anything? How many of these people have driven a club into the ground and have had to leave over the last 20 years?

Exactly! They'd end up cutting each other's throats

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Just catching up after holiday and as usual Gingerjon and Dave T talking the most sense.

I will make a prediction though. If the clubs do gain control of SL we will be back to the state we were pre Lewis, bankrupt.

Does anyone think the club chairmen will agree on anything? How many of these people have driven a club into the ground and have had to leave over the last 20 years?

 

Yo may or may not be correct. However, the same was said when the premier league board was created to take over the running of the then 1st Division and away from the FA.   That league whilst of course strong at the creation is much much stronger.  Of course another successful example being English RU clubs.   Mind you what successful is will depend upon your viewpoint.

 

So your prediction may be right but then I could give a prediction that it would be better.  Probably dependent upon whom they appointed to the board, the governance, vision, focus and many other things.    

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bamfordsbeans, good post!

"The new structure and the financial rewards on the face of it seems to be a fair one for all levels of the professional game.It would be a backward step for all the resources to go to 12 clubs.There are twice as many clubs at the semi-pro level and it would be a travesty to let these clubs die.The biggest problem for a number of these clubs is that some of them are managed to a level that SL clubs are -some good and some badly."

It is a case of the RFL trying to get the best deal for everyone and when SL chairman talk about who brings the money it in is disingenuous because we'd all like more money but there is a devil take the hindmost quality to some utterances. The other day I heard Kris Radlinski saying there's not enough quality players to sustain the number of SL clubs at present. I do find it intriguing that we rarely hear talk about how to increase those numbers from anywhere except from the RFL! Wigan sit in, relatively, a very comfortable situation as far as children participating as well as being a "well off" enterprise and so Rads is speaking from a very fortunate position. Now no doubt here I'll have to say this is not a go at Rads or the Warriors because some people seem to take the hump at the smell of disagreement! But can anyone tell me what the evidence is for a "game wide strategy" on the part of SL clubs (because they're, in their own words, the source of income for the game) of player/participant acquisition. Not repeat not what is each club  doing because I'm absolutely  sure they're going into schools etc etc but How is SL working towards this goal as a whole? If they can't answer this it would go a long way to explain why the strategy is get rid of two clubs from SL!

redjohn : absolutely right it will depend on who is in charge when the SL clubs are in charge!

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It's worth mentioning but as in all things in life, The long running arguments and disputes on here are about Money.

 

I don't remember much of this before we had money,  It was a club stood of fell on it's own efforts, there were big clubs and small ones , " just like now " the one's who couldn't hack it for whatever reason went to the wall.

 

All of a sudden there is a pot of money, and the fight for a share of it began, and has never stopped.

 

All sorts of arguments have been put forward ( including mine ) Mine i like to think are based more on reality rather than history, I like to look at what is actually happening rather than what could happen if " this or that was done "

 

This is a quote from Parksider ( whose posts i enjoy ) and he won't like what i'm saying.

 

______________________________________________________________________________________

 

For most people it's just a game, just entertainment and they are happy to just choose somewhere to watch and are more likely to watch if it's a better standard of RL and bigger club. More likely to travel too.

 

_____________________________________________________________________________________

 

These most people for who it is just a game, I argue that for every 10 that chooses somewhere to watch, 9 of them are very likely to choose the Couch, and the only traveling they will be doing is to the Fridge.

 

That may not be what is ideal but it is going to get worse, League is a great sport but more than that it is entertainment, Exactly like the 30 or so Cinemas in Huddersfield were when i was younger, till a more convenient way to watch came along.

 

MK  is very good for league and for Salford, He is not one of the " by gum we did well to get £200 million" brigade, He sees a lot more money to be had from, an ever increasing Electronic world, There is no telling where or how we are going to be able to watch games in a few years. There will always be Fans who go to games, but there will be far far more watching on TV.

 

I don't like making comparisons to Soccer, But for all the massive crowds at some clubs, and good crowds at others " due to it's popularity " The TV audiance will be astronomic, Thats why the TV companies pay out such large amounts on money. League on a smaller scale is just going down the same route, as is union and any other sport that can, How many people go to watch Live Darts compared to watching it on TV, I thought i had read somewhere that it was now masive on Telly.

 

The less teams there are the more money they will have, The more money they have, the better the players will become, I believe there will always be League at a lower level, and i think the RFL is sort of trying to ensure it in a half hearted way, but realise they are drawing up battle lines if you like. 

 

I can see a power struggle in the future, with one side looking backwards and trying to maintain a traditional and multi-club game, and getting clubs on side in any way they can. On the other side the rich and "greedy to some "

busness men, who see so much more to be had  "rightly or wrongly " and don't see it as there job to provide for, or prop up failing clubs.  Like Sky they dont care how great the game was 60 years ago, those days are never coming back.

 

MK reminds me of the then Casius Clay, At 23 years old he declared himself to be the greatest, and King of the world. He got so far up the british publics nose, That Millions turned on the Telly to watch Henry half kill him, Henry as we know didn't half kill him, and the british public grew to love Clay.

 

Bottom line is Parksider  IMO is right , In the fullness of time the top clubs will be the SL and the rest will be somewhere at a far lower level providing future players, Where i disagree with him is , we need as many MKs as we can get, they like IL and co are the ones who will take the game forward, not the ones who think we can recreate the past.

 

My Opinion and no offence to any club or fan.

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Yo may or may not be correct. However, the same was said when the premier league board was created to take over the running of the then 1st Division and away from the FA.   That league whilst of course strong at the creation is much much stronger.  Of course another successful example being English RU clubs.      

 

Careful with the real life examples - they don't go down well here.

 

Two big reasons to "give it a go". We have a lot of fans on here saying we should give P & R a go despite past failure, yet SL running itself is a "no-no"???

 

It's worked in the two games closest to ours, give it a go. Having said that Lenegan had  a 7-7 support against the RFL, after this year his support may be in the majority, so it is probably inevitable SLE will run itself in time.

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I don't disagree John, if a championship club went out of business in Rochdale and Oldham there may be no

immediate effect on Salford's crowds.

 

But the trick seems to be that where Championship clubs fail to attract fans, Superleague clubs can pick up "occasional fans and newbies" and turn them into regulars as you say.

 

If you look at Bradford, they deliberately marketed to the Batley area and parked their season ticket bus in the town. As you enter the centre of Hunslet, Leeds have a big hoarding up advertising Season Tickets.

 

I'm all for Superleague clubs casting their net far and wide and I think the M60 opens up a massive catchment area that in terms of travelling to  Barton is not that "far and wide" time wise. They say Everton get a massive amount of support from North Wales.

 

If Hunslet shut down 400 fans would be lost to the game but as time moved on the area would become a natural  hinterland of Rhinos support, if it already hasn't become so.

I suspect the situation with Hunslet is right. The difference is that Hunslet is, as far as I'm aware, a district of Leeds whereas Rochdale and Oldham, on the other hand, aren't districts of anywhere. For me, then, the problem with what you appear to be suggesting (the killing off of such clubs) is that there is no similar affinity between those towns and, say, Salford. It's a fair trek from each of them to Barton, which is why I don't see their supporters turning to Salford (or anywhere), I see them being lost to the game or, more likely, watching SL from the comfort of their armchairs. I think there's more chance of the residents of Rochdale, Oldham or wherever getting out to watch a SL team (if their local team isn't in SL, of course) is if they have a professional club on their own doorstep to ease them into the habit of going rather than watching on TV.

 

I guess the closest analogy to the Leeds/Hunslet situation is Salford/Swinton, since Swintion is a district of Salford. Nevertheless, I wouldn't like to see Swinton fade away. As a Salford fan, I think we need to protect them (there aren't many people who are jealous of us, and we'd lose tham all of Swinton died). As time goes by, though, I suspect more Salfordians will turn to Salford rather than Swinton, but I doubt losing Swinton will accelerate that.

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I suspect the situation with Hunslet is right. The difference is that Hunslet is, as far as I'm aware, a district of Leeds whereas Rochdale and Oldham, on the other hand, aren't districts of anywhere. For me, then, the problem with what you appear to be suggesting (the killing off of such clubs) is that there is no similar affinity between those towns and, say, Salford. It's a fair trek from each of them to Barton, which is why I don't see their supporters turning to Salford (or anywhere), I see them being lost to the game or, more likely, watching SL from the comfort of their armchairs. I think there's more chance of the residents of Rochdale, Oldham or wherever getting out to watch a SL team (if their local team isn't in SL, of course) is if they have a professional club on their own doorstep to ease them into the habit of going rather than watching on TV.

 

 

I'm not suggesting kill any clubs off at all I was wondering if Marwan was. All I am suggesting is allowing the Championship to carry on without propping it up with wasted money needed for Superleague investment.

 

It's worth talking to people not guessing. We were told about four Oldham based people who share a car to Wigan for match days, and how on Manchester Picadilly station on Wigan match days you will see fans going to the JJB.

 

Why does anyone need an affinity with another town to watch the club there? What affinity to Manchester do all the fans who gravitate down to the Eithad from Rochdale, Oldham, Bury etc have??

 

Why did my west cumbrian dentist who studied and lives in Leeds go to Bradford with his family to watch RL? What affinity did two Barnsley lads have to Sheffield or Leeds whom they switched from and to following Hetherington?

 

I just wonder where people who live in Bury, Stockport, Harrogate, Bingley, Cleckheaton, Ashton, Runcorn. Chester, Barnsley, Chorley, Southport and a hundred other places across the north of England go to watch RL or do they all not bother by definition of not living in RL places and being too far away from the game??

 

I don't see how it is a trek from Rochdale to Barton John the two are linked directly by motorway?? Diehard Rochdale fans have their club, Marwan needs to attract the floaters who want something more than CC1.

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"MK  is very good for league and for Salford, He is not one of the " by gum we did well to get £200 million" brigade, He sees a lot more money to be had from, an ever increasing Electronic world, There is no telling where or how we are going to be able to watch games in a few years. There will always be Fans who go to games, but there will be far far more watching on TV."

Good read Giant strides!

 

He makes Newspapers sit up and take notice and that's good enough for me!

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You've no grasp of reality or history, I went down the Donny Road from Belle Vue the other week and quickly stopped off at Tattersfield, one can still pick out the bankings. It was this close proximity to the RL heartland that caused the club to set up. It was what enabled them to borrow players. I also had a call at Flixborough last week and to call Scunthorpe a potential major catchment area for Donny is just making it up, as for "potential" they've been trying for over 60 years. Oddly this seems to make you champion, them despite London having tried for only 30 years and achieved much more.

 

I keep an eye out for where Leeds fans come from, one doing the half time games said they'd come from York. They must have avoided the roadblock that prevents anyone in York going to Headingley.

 

Putting people in boxes and drawing circles around clubs is a regular myth on here to justify the unjustifiable.

 

The reason people in Donny know Rugby league is the same reason they know the game in Scunthorpe, they've heard of Leeds, Wigan and Hull and seen them on the TV and BTW there's a bridge close to Scunthorpe that goes to Hull. Buy a map and keep up!

 

Your anecdotal Leeds fans from York that you chanced to meet at Headingley are just that, a one off chance meeting. How many do you think make that journey, do you have any idea. is it close to the several thousand a successful York club could attract. I doubt it.

 

The bridge from Scunthorpe is expensive and not really used a lot. it's a white elephant. Scunthorpe is roughly equidistant from Hull and Doncaster. What it is not and what is relevant for this argument is that it is nowhere near Wakefield. Years ago, not too far from the bloody Sunday era, I lived in Thorne and there were a number of us who made the trip to Tattersfield regularly to watch a bottom four team in a 30 team league  We did not at any time contemplate driving to Wakefield for a game. Today the Dons are in the Championship, made the playoffs and play in a fantastic stadium. I am quite sure there is a potential support base there especially as there is now a junior RL club in the town.

 

Supporting a team in Doncaster as opposed to the theory of killing it to become a catchment area for Wakefield has nothing whatsoever to do with any support I may or may not have for a London team. There is no connection. That;s just a red herring thrown into the argument to muddy the waters.

 

If you want to make a connection between Doncaster and London, then ponder this. If Doncaster were artificially elevated to SL at present like London were at the outset and if they had a backer as steadfast and rich as Hughes, do you not think Doncaster would become as successful if not more successful a SL club than the Broncos?

 

I think two successful SL teams, one in Wakefield and one in Doncaster is vastly preferable to one SL team for the whole area. You might as well suggest that Leeds United and Huddersfield Town merge with only one representing the area seeing as how they are only 10 miles apart but soccer is not so myopic in their views as some.

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It's worth mentioning but as in all things in life, The long running arguments and disputes on here are about Money.

 

I don't remember much of this before we had money,  It was a club stood of fell on it's own efforts, there were big clubs and small ones , " just like now " the one's who couldn't hack it for whatever reason went to the wall.

 

All of a sudden there is a pot of money, and the fight for a share of it began, and has never stopped.

 

All sorts of arguments have been put forward ( including mine ) Mine i like to think are based more on reality rather than history, I like to look at what is actually happening rather than what could happen if " this or that was done "

 

This is a quote from Parksider ( whose posts i enjoy ) and he won't like what i'm saying.

 

______________________________________________________________________________________

 

For most people it's just a game, just entertainment and they are happy to just choose somewhere to watch and are more likely to watch if it's a better standard of RL and bigger club. More likely to travel too.

 

_____________________________________________________________________________________

 

These most people for who it is just a game, I argue that for every 10 that chooses somewhere to watch, 9 of them are very likely to choose the Couch, and the only traveling they will be doing is to the Fridge.

 

That may not be what is ideal but it is going to get worse, League is a great sport but more than that it is entertainment, Exactly like the 30 or so Cinemas in Huddersfield were when i was younger, till a more convenient way to watch came along.

 

MK  is very good for league and for Salford, He is not one of the " by gum we did well to get £200 million" brigade, He sees a lot more money to be had from, an ever increasing Electronic world, There is no telling where or how we are going to be able to watch games in a few years. There will always be Fans who go to games, but there will be far far more watching on TV.

 

I don't like making comparisons to Soccer, But for all the massive crowds at some clubs, and good crowds at others " due to it's popularity " The TV audiance will be astronomic, Thats why the TV companies pay out such large amounts on money. League on a smaller scale is just going down the same route, as is union and any other sport that can, How many people go to watch Live Darts compared to watching it on TV, I thought i had read somewhere that it was now masive on Telly.

 

The less teams there are the more money they will have, The more money they have, the better the players will become, I believe there will always be League at a lower level, and i think the RFL is sort of trying to ensure it in a half hearted way, but realise they are drawing up battle lines if you like. 

 

I can see a power struggle in the future, with one side looking backwards and trying to maintain a traditional and multi-club game, and getting clubs on side in any way they can. On the other side the rich and "greedy to some "

busness men, who see so much more to be had  "rightly or wrongly " and don't see it as there job to provide for, or prop up failing clubs.  Like Sky they dont care how great the game was 60 years ago, those days are never coming back.

 

MK reminds me of the then Casius Clay, At 23 years old he declared himself to be the greatest, and King of the world. He got so far up the british publics nose, That Millions turned on the Telly to watch Henry half kill him, Henry as we know didn't half kill him, and the british public grew to love Clay.

 

Bottom line is Parksider  IMO is right , In the fullness of time the top clubs will be the SL and the rest will be somewhere at a far lower level providing future players, Where i disagree with him is , we need as many MKs as we can get, they like IL and co are the ones who will take the game forward, not the ones who think we can recreate the past.

 

My Opinion and no offence to any club or fan.

 

All very interesting. The top clubs should earn their place on merit and not appointment and the top clubs should not always be the same unchanging very small ( 10 to 12) group.

 

The top group needs two things to keep it relevant. 1. Competition and change of teams and 2. To become bigger in numbers and, if possible, geographical spread. these are important to increase the viewership for TV which now runs the game.

 

Parksiders view of a permanent unchanging top tier is a recipe for stagnation and ultimate irrelevance of the game. Wigan v Saints and Leeds v Huddersfield or Bradford can only deliver so many Sky viewers. Those same viewers added to by new viewers watching Sheffield V Crusaders or Coventry or a Cumbrian or North east team or a south west team or a good London duo of teams would be the nirvana for Sky and increase their commitment. This is why the lower tiers must be supported and encouraged.

 

If this support results eventually in the top teams being augmented by other new too level teams or returned former top level teams, then the game will be moving towards it's potential.

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