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walter sobchak

Ukraine

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How can the democratically elected leader of the Ukraine be described as a "dictator"? And how can the"protesters" in Kiev claim to want "democracy" when they've seized buildings and ousted the president in a coup?

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Because the Ukrainian president rigged the elections by altering the voting system from proportional representation to first-past-the-post but only in some constituencies. The opposition won the popular vote but lost the election.

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I don't pretend to understand all of this but aren't there also issues regarding going completely against some aspects of his original mandate?

 

I also wouldn't like to begin to work out if anyone in politics there truly is the great white hope ...

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I don't pretend to understand all of this but aren't there also issues regarding going completely against some aspects of his original mandate?

 

I also wouldn't like to begin to work out if anyone in politics there truly is the great white hope ...

Correct, he has also been giving himself more and more political powers.

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The Politicans in the Ukraine seem to love a good punch up and come across as very corrupt! Apparently they the people have stormed the Presidential palace and were shocked at how much luxury items he had while the people in general suffered. 

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Because the Ukrainian president rigged the elections by altering the voting system from proportional representation to first-past-the-post but only in some constituencies. The opposition won the popular vote but lost the election.

Yanukovich was in the opposition when he was elected, therefore he had no influence over how the elections were organized.

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How can the democratically elected leader of the Ukraine be described as a "dictator"? And how can the"protesters" in Kiev claim to want "democracy" when they've seized buildings and ousted the president in a coup?

This is politics. Anything can be presented anything if the media cooperates. Morsi deposed a democratically elected president in Egypt and was presented in western media as the restorer of democracy in Egypt, while the democratically elected president of Ukraine is presented as a dictator.

 

The biggest problem for Ukraine going forward will be the legitimacy this whole saga will bring to using violence as a political tool. I mean, Yanukovich has his own supporters, and if their guy was ousted using violence why wouldn't they also do the same if the other guys won the elections?

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Yanukovich was in the opposition when he was elected, therefore he had no influence over how the elections were organized.

Not over his election in 2010, I agree, but the 2012 parliamentary elections were extremely dodgy.

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This is politics. Anything can be presented anything if the media cooperates. Morsi deposed a democratically elected president in Egypt and was presented in western media as the restorer of democracy in Egypt, while the democratically elected president of Ukraine is presented as a dictator.

 

The biggest problem for Ukraine going forward will be the legitimacy this whole saga will bring to using violence as a political tool. I mean, Yanukovich has his own supporters, and if their guy was ousted using violence why wouldn't they also do the same if the other guys won the elections?

Morsi did not depose a democratically elected president. Three things you didn't mention:-

 

1) Morsi's Islamists were not really all that involved in bringing down Mubarak

2) Mubarak's election was very much the Soviet style election. He was, in no real sense, democratically elected.

3) The Western press were always pretty negative about Morsi

 

The biggest problem for Ukraine is the Russian speaking areas "given" to Ukraine by Stalin. The West and Centre voted heavily for the opposition. The East and South voted heavily for Yanukovich. Although young people in Russian areas are much more pro-Ukraine than their parents or grandparents. Even so the pro-Russian lot look like they are not very happy with events and the potential for further violence is certainly there.

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This is politics. Anything can be presented anything if the media cooperates. Morsi deposed a democratically elected president in Egypt and was presented in western media as the restorer of democracy in Egypt, while the democratically elected president of Ukraine is presented as a dictator.

 

The biggest problem for Ukraine going forward will be the legitimacy this whole saga will bring to using violence as a political tool. I mean, Yanukovich has his own supporters, and if their guy was ousted using violence why wouldn't they also do the same if the other guys won the elections?

Couldn't agree more, let's see what the US and EU have to say if Russia decides to support pro-russian opposition supporters in say the Baltic states, the Balkans and other former soviet states.

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The biggest problem for Ukraine is the Russian speaking areas "given" to Ukraine by Stalin. The West and Centre voted heavily for the opposition. The East and South voted heavily for Yanukovich. Although young people in Russian areas are much more pro-Ukraine than their parents or grandparents. Even so the pro-Russian lot look like they are not very happy with events and the potential for further violence is certainly there.

Pictures on twitter today suggest that it is far from over and the Yanukovich supporters are obviously upset.

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Couldn't agree more, let's see what the US and EU have to say if Russia decides to support pro-russian opposition supporters in say the Baltic states, the Balkans and other former soviet states.

I don't think any other European state is split in quite the same way as Ukraine. There are a lot of Russians in Latvia but that's due to migration during the Soviet period. Ukraine is unique because it has territory that was historically Russian (okay before that it belonged to the Crimean Tartars) and should never have been included in Ukraine.

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How can the democratically elected leader of the Ukraine be described as a "dictator"? And how can the"protesters" in Kiev claim to want "democracy" when they've seized buildings and ousted the president in a coup?

because the people seizing the government building is democracy in its purest form

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Morsi did not depose a democratically elected president. Three things you didn't mention:-

 

1) Morsi's Islamists were not really all that involved in bringing down Mubarak

2) Mubarak's election was very much the Soviet style election. He was, in no real sense, democratically elected.

3) The Western press were always pretty negative about Morsi

 

The biggest problem for Ukraine is the Russian speaking areas "given" to Ukraine by Stalin. The West and Centre voted heavily for the opposition. The East and South voted heavily for Yanukovich. Although young people in Russian areas are much more pro-Ukraine than their parents or grandparents. Even so the pro-Russian lot look like they are not very happy with events and the potential for further violence is certainly there.

I mixed things up.

I meant to say Al Sisi or whatever his name is deposed a democratically elected leader(Morsi).

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because the people seizing the government building is democracy in its purest form

No it's not democracy at all. Direct democracy is the purest for of democracy and that doesn't involve a minority using violence to take over institutions of the state.

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because the people seizing the government building is democracy in its purest form

I would have thought that getting rid of yanukovych at the ballot box would be democracy in its purest form.

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How is the violent seizure of a govt property by an unrepresentative mob of masked and armed thugs democracy in is purest form?

How is it "Government of the people by the people for the people"

Is the idea to replace elections with civil war?

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I saw a news report that said that most of the wealth in Ukraine is created in the east, where heavy steelworks and  engineering plants produce stuff for the Russian market.

 

You can bet your life that these industries are, in world terms, not efficient and, if Ukraine joined the EU, Russia would withdraw its orders. Most Ukraine plants would go to the wall; the same happened to our steel industry and ours was efficient.

 

Result: Yet another member country that the EU would expect the UK, France and Germany to prop up. Plus a fresh flood of young immigrants looking for work in the UK.

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How is the violent seizure of a govt property by an unrepresentative mob of masked and armed thugs democracy in is purest form?

How is it "Government of the people by the people for the people"

Is the idea to replace elections with civil war?

 

 

How do you know they're "unrepresentative"? How do you know they're "thugs"?  Can you even begin to conceive that they might be ordinairy people who have seen through the huge con trick that parliamentary "democracy" actually is?

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I would have thought that getting rid of yanukovych at the ballot box would be democracy in its purest form.

 

 

Yes you would probably think that. I happen not to.

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Plus a fresh flood of young immigrants looking for work in the UK.

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I saw a news report that said that most of the wealth in Ukraine is created in the east, where heavy steelworks and  engineering plants produce stuff for the Russian market.

 

You can bet your life that these industries are, in world terms, not efficient and, if Ukraine joined the EU, Russia would withdraw its orders. Most Ukraine plants would go to the wall; the same happened to our steel industry and ours was efficient.

 

Result: Yet another member country that the EU would expect the UK, France and Germany to prop up. Plus a fresh flood of young immigrants looking for work in the UK.

That is true, the east and the south of Ukraine are the richer parts of that country and it's also true that their industries are most likely non competitive on the global market. Signing the EU deal would have opened up their markets to competitors from all over the EU and likely end up destroying large parts of their manufacturing industry leaving them worse off than the present.

 

If the EU really wants to help Ukraine economically they should unilaterally open up their markets, allowing Ukrainian products to be freely sold into the EU while allowing Ukraine to keep some trade barriers for EU exports to Ukraine. That would ensure a slow but steady increase in their competitiveness without the shock of suddenly opening up their markets to EU companies. Sadly, this is a power play rather than a genuine concern for Ukraine's well being and such common sense approaches to the situation don't have a chance of happening.

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They need a mandate from the majority in order to be representative. The mandate is given by election. Those mobs didn't get the mandate from the general population. 

 

 

How do you know that?

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Was there any need to make this debate personal?  2 posts deleted, one containing the personal stuff, one quoting it.

 

Be civil or you run the minimum risk of your post being deleted and an increasing risk of getting suspended or banned.

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How do you know that?

I haven't seen the mob win any elections. Also, about 1% of Ukraine's population has participated in these protests. 

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