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walter sobchak

Ukraine

320 posts in this topic

Worse than the current system, that;s for sure. 

 

How do you know, it's never been tried?

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The reality is that even if there's masses of people with similar altruistic intentions, eventually you'll get someone come along who is a narcissistic power-hungry tyrant who cons enough of the masses to let him lead them, then you get the abuses, everyone's equal but some are more equal than others, and then you get even worse situations than in the past.  Animal Farm is quite realistic in this.

 

Unfortunately, representative democracy is a poor method of consensus government but it's better than every other alternative that man has come up with so far for managing more than a town full of people.

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You don't have a monopoly on that.

 

In any case, where your approach has been tried it has failed.   

 

What active steps are you taking to get your way?

 

 

I take it from your first sentence that you also want a peaceful, well fed, fulfilled world? and yet you support a capitalist system which has continually proven its inability to provide, peace, food and housing. which really gives a certain piquancy to your second statement, given that the system you support has continually failed to deliver.

 

Thirdly just rest assured that I patiently work for an end I will probably not see in my lifetime.

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I take it from your first sentence that you also want a peaceful, well fed, fulfilled world? and yet you support a capitalist system which has continually proven its inability to provide, peace, food and housing. which really gives a certain piquancy to your second statement, given that the system you support has continually failed to deliver.

 

Thirdly just rest assured that I patiently work for an end I will probably not see in my lifetime.

The longer a country has been capitalist the richer it is.

Also, whatever we do have today has been built by capitalism, but hey, let's give all that up in the hope that whatever else we put in place will be better.

 

Also, you have ignored my question, and I would really like you to answer it if you will:What would be the governing system of this new world (post peaceful/violent takeover by the working class)?

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Also, you have ignored my question, and I would really like you to answer it if you will:What would be the governing system of this new world (post peaceful/violent takeover by the working class)?

 

 

sorry, not ignored deliberately just missed in the hurly burly of debate ;) but what has been postulated by left libertarian theorists is a system of interconnected workers councils, based around the work place and the local community, each one with recallable delegates feeding into larger co-operative groups,

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sorry, not ignored deliberately just missed in the hurly burly of debate ;) but what has been postulated by left libertarian theorists is a system of interconnected workers councils, based around the work place and the local community, each one with recallable delegates feeding into larger co-operative groups,

So, basically you elect delegates who go to a larger organization. Isn't that what a Parliament is? It seems to me you just added the twist of it somehow being connected to the workplace.

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So, basically you elect delegates who go to a larger organization. Isn't that what a Parliament is? It seems to me you just added the twist of it somehow being connected to the workplace.

 

 

No not really, these syndicates would also be responsible for the day to day running of industry, supply, transport etc. Probably the catch-all here is that delegates could be instantly recalled if they ignored the instructions of their syndicate or acted in any way contrary to their instuctions.

 

How many of our current uninspiring bunch od MPs from all parties would be around if we could recall them for not performing/breaking promises or just being the unimaginative lack lustre bunch that they are?

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because the people seizing the government building is democracy in its purest form

 

Or "mob rule" or "survival of the fittest" or "a minority inflicting their will on the majority". Depends which way you want to interpret events.

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How do you know, it's never been tried?

Happened in the middle east, south east Asia and in Europe. The result was typically an undemocratic and supressive government with little regard for human rights and civil liberties.

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I take it from your first sentence that you also want a peaceful, well fed, fulfilled world? and yet you support a capitalist system which has continually proven its inability to provide, peace, food and housing. which really gives a certain piquancy to your second statement, given that the system you support has continually failed to deliver.

 

Thirdly just rest assured that I patiently work for an end I will probably not see in my lifetime.

 

 

200px-Citizen_smith.jpg

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No not really, these syndicates would also be responsible for the day to day running of industry, supply, transport etc. Probably the catch-all here is that delegates could be instantly recalled if they ignored the instructions of their syndicate or acted in any way contrary to their instuctions.

 

How many of our current uninspiring bunch od MPs from all parties would be around if we could recall them for not performing/breaking promises or just being the unimaginative lack lustre bunch that they are?

Right, so basically you would have workers' unions electing a union leader/s and then have him/they run the industry and also have the political power. What about those who aren't part of a worker's union, such as retired people, students, unemployed people, freelancers, etc... would they get a vote too?

 

Also, how would ownership be structured. I read a bit about the guy you quote in your signature and he advocated abolishing both private and state property and have everything worker-owned. Is that the system you support?

 

You can get rid of non performing representatives now too, every 4 years. The fixed period mandate is for practical reasons, otherwise you would have elections every week because someone would not agree with something the delegate is doing.

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Also, how would ownership be structured. I read a bit about the guy you quote in your signature and he advocated abolishing both private and state property and have everything worker-owned. Is that the system you support?

.

yes it is

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200px-Citizen_smith.jpg

Not all that original really

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Not all that original really

 

 

No and thirty years past its sell-by date.

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Come, come, just because communism led to the deaths of tens of millions of people in the USSR and China and elsewhere doesn't mean we shouldn't try it again. Consider just how dreadful capitalism is, I mean zero hours contracts, well there's just no comparison, is there?

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Come, come, just because communism led to the deaths of tens of millions of people in the USSR and China and elsewhere doesn't mean we shouldn't try it again. Consider just how dreadful capitalism is, I mean zero hours contracts, well there's just no comparison, is there?

I salute your selective skills zero hours v a world where armed conflict is the norm across the globe. Yeah zero hours is the worst excess capitalism has to offer.

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yes it is

Right. So, if I want to set up a company, I own it but only as long as I am the only employee, and when I want to hire my first employee I will only own half of the company, and then when we're up to 20 employees I will only own 5% of the company, right? So what's my incentive for being that guy who puts a lot of effort and takes risks in order to start a company?

 

There are successful examples of worker owned companies, like Mondragon, however you can't have an entire economy run this way because you disincentivize people from taking risks and forming small scale companies and grow them. 

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Come, come, just because communism led to the deaths of tens of millions of people in the USSR and China and elsewhere doesn't mean we shouldn't try it again. Consider just how dreadful capitalism is, I mean zero hours contracts, well there's just no comparison, is there?

Well, TBF, what was tried in the USSR and China wasn't really communism, because the workers didn't really own the means of production... the state did, and with the state being a autocracy the workers didn't actually had any influence over how things were run.

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Has anyone seen Viktor Yanukovych?

 

He turned out for London Broncos on Saturday. Nobody recognised him, or any of their other players bar Scott Moore and Kieran Dixon.

;)

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Has anyone seen Viktor Yanukovych?

He was last seen in Balaclava, I've been there.  The Russian Mediterranean fleet was based near there at Sebastapol so perhaps he's hopped on to a Russian battleship. 

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It's started:

:dry: <_<

 

 

'Foreign Secretary William Hague told MPs that Ukraine’s fledgling revolution could collapse within weeks unless it receives billions in aid from the international community.'

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Armed men in uniform taking over airports.  Russians deny it is them.

 

This could get worse very quickly.

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Armed men in uniform taking over airports.  Russians deny it is them.

 

This could get worse very quickly.

 

Russian parliament rushing through a law that would allow them to take the Crimea into their federation.

 

This is going to end swimmingly.

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