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JM2010

new structure idea

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1998 winner takes all Featherstone.v.Wakefield 8,224

1999 winner takes all Dewsbury.v.Hunslet 5,783

2000 winner takes all Dewsbury.v. Leigh 8,847

2001 winner takes all Oldham.v.Widnes 8,974

2002 winner takes all Fartown.v.Leigh 9,051

followed by 9,186,11,005, 13,300, 13,024, 20,814 & 7,104

Great games and some good crowds building to some excellent ones.

The new format has no grand final winner takes all really, just a continuation of pseudo league fixtures, and then again between mismatched sides. I think fans aren't daft and are likely to pick up (if they haven't already done so) on how loaded the dice will be in these roll-offs.

I don't see the excitement of those wonderful grand finals returning.

There's a 4th vs 5th game with the winner going into SL. That's akin to a play-off grand final.

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I was (and am) a big critic of this new system but it is here now and I am prepared to watch how it plays out over the new few seasons.

 

There is no point moaning about it - it's done.

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So it's different to what we've got for 2015, then ? 

 

I see.

 

Not that I think it's much better, mind there'll be no promotion or relegation, owing to the First Twelve teams being a lot better than the Second Twelve teams.

 

Sure - some rich bloke might throw money at a club once in a while but is that really good for the game ?

 

Not sure that I see that well on this mish mash.

 

Anyway as the tables stand if London and Bradford go down they receive very large parachute payments.

Leigh in sparkling form and a rejuvinated Doncaster would add to the above pair as the top four CC clubs.

 

So as it stands the play offs next year could be professional clubs Hull and HKR, Wakefield and Catalans with Bradford and London still running professionally on those big parachute payments.

 

Bottom of the pile are Leigh and Doncaster, still running semi pro??

 

This could easily happen, and isn't it a massive ask for either of those two championship clubs to take on those professional clubs??? As it stands the 4v5  "final" which I missed would be Catalans.v.Bradford.

 

Finally where would Featherstone Rovers be in all of this or Sheffield Eagles or Halifax?? What effect would this new structure have on these clubs who would effectively be squeezed down to third tier status should all things stay as they are??

 

Take the wishful thinking out of all this and the new structure in which tiers 1 and 2 of the game are just 16 clubs, relegates such as Fev, Sheffield and Halifax to the third division of late season play offs even if they end their seasons very successfully (Last year 3rd. & 4th. in the Championship were Fax and Leigh who won most of their games). This new structure pushes the top two Championship clubs to the bottom of an eight club play off under four big pro clubs and two ex-SL clubs with fat parachute payments.

 

In recent years such as Fev and Halifax have been there or thereabouts contesting grand finals (2010's belter) that in other years (1998 -2008) would have seen one of them in Superleague.

 

Reducing SL to 12, paying out massive parachute payments and loading the play off dice in favour of pro clubs against part timers surely puts the recently stifled ambitions of several CC clubs even further backwards rather than advancing them??

 

I may be wrong (again?) but if my club were a top CC club I'd be crying "foul" not "Can't wait for P & R to return".

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There is no point moaning about it - it's done.

 

Nobody is moaning or being negative, we are discussing the practical merits of the system, and looking at how it works. My fear is that if it works to current form and funding you will hear the biggest moans ever in around 18 months time. As for it being "done" the fair question is when will it be undone.

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There is no point moaning about it - it's done.

 

It's never done.  There's always more change.  That's Rugby League.

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is there to be minimum standards to be able to compete in the super league or championship ? Would Sheffield say if they won play off be allowed in super league playing at Owlerton ? What the formats for teams below the top two divisions as 13 teams will be out of top two leagues. Are standards going to be set to let teams in the lowest league be able to go up ?  

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is there to be minimum standards to be able to compete in the super league or championship ? Would Sheffield say if they won play off be allowed in super league playing at Owlerton ? What the formats for teams below the top two divisions as 13 teams will be out of top two leagues. Are standards going to be set to let teams in the lowest league be able to go up ?  

 

Yes, there will be minimum standards is the short answer.  The rest of your questions call for speculation, though.

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I'm more confused by all your confusion than I ever was with the proposed new structure. A different suggestion for every post,

a different model for each some looking backwards some forwards, these go up those go down. it was better when we...... ,what about

this and that and don't forget the internationals? I need a lie down!

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Does anyone think that all 24 teams could be full time at some point in the future. I think it is highly unlikely especially given the differences in funding. This would be the best way for the new structure to work as clubs could move between both without too much upheaval .The clubs would need similar levels of funding for this to be viable

With strict criteria for any promoted clubs from what is now championship 2. Wishful thinking I know, but it's my ideal scenario based on the new structure

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I think 24 full time teams is too ambitious for the time being.I think 20 is more realistic and although in the minority I was in favour of a 2 x 10 team approach.

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I think whatever the structure more full time teams should be the aim with more competitive games. However, this should be done in the right way rather than clubs going full time for the sake of it before their ready. Clubs should only be allowed to go full time if they can prove they've got the finances/income and if other areas if the club are up to scratch eg development, marketing, attendances etc

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Going forward, less, rather than more, full time teams seems the better bet.

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Not sure that I see that well on this mish mash.

 

Anyway as the tables stand if London and Bradford go down they receive very large parachute payments.

Leigh in sparkling form and a rejuvinated Doncaster would add to the above pair as the top four CC clubs.

 

So as it stands the play offs next year could be professional clubs Hull and HKR, Wakefield and Catalans with Bradford and London still running professionally on those big parachute payments.

 

Bottom of the pile are Leigh and Doncaster, still running semi pro??

 

This could easily happen, and isn't it a massive ask for either of those two championship clubs to take on those professional clubs??? As it stands the 4v5  "final" which I missed would be Catalans.v.Bradford.

 

Finally where would Featherstone Rovers be in all of this or Sheffield Eagles or Halifax?? What effect would this new structure have on these clubs who would effectively be squeezed down to third tier status should all things stay as they are??

 

 

Bit of a contradiction there: What makes you think that Leigh & Doncaster would be the top teams out of the current Championship when Fev have been spending the most? The truth is that money doesn't always talk, just like Batley knocking out Leigh & Fev in last year's play-offs, and the closer the gap in pay differentials the greater the chance of an upset. If we get only one club from the bottom tier earning promotion every year or two it will be a step in the right direction. Of course, it could be more interesting if the top four clubs from the lower tier got an increase in salary cap and were allowed a transfer window before the start of the middle round of 8.

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Of course, it could be more interesting if the top four clubs from the lower tier got an increase in salary cap and were allowed a transfer window before the start of the middle round of 8.

 

Who would they buy ?  Who'd be available at the sharp end of the season ?  Would you want to change a winning team ?

 

No thanks - it's going to be a bit like DR, isn't it ?

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Who would they buy ?  Who'd be available at the sharp end of the season ?  Would you want to change a winning team ?

 

No thanks - it's going to be a bit like DR, isn't it ?

True, but it would get the current SL also-rans moaning a bit more

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Bit of a contradiction there: What makes you think that Leigh & Doncaster would be the top teams out of the current Championship when Fev have been spending the most? The truth is that money doesn't always talk, just like Batley knocking out Leigh & Fev in last year's play-offs, and the closer the gap in pay differentials the greater the chance of an upset. If we get only one club from the bottom tier earning promotion every year or two it will be a step in the right direction. Of course, it could be more interesting if the top four clubs from the lower tier got an increase in salary cap and were allowed a transfer window before the start of the middle round of 8.

 

I dunno Steve, I've just seen a clapped out Wakefield, easily beaten by Leeds. A bunch of journeymen with no quality young kids rising through the ranks. They're shaping up to be SL also rans, but if they did drop down and collapse I'd be sure that Fev, Batley, Fax. Sheffield. Leigh or Donny would be there picking over the bones. For as Griff asks who is there to buy?

 

I think Griff is spot on with his posts, and for me "earning promotion" will be no more that earning the right to take the place of an SL also ran, and just be another SL also ran. Still that's variety.

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I think whatever the structure more full time teams should be the aim with more competitive games. However, this should be done in the right way rather than clubs going full time for the sake of it before their ready. Clubs should only be allowed to go full time if they can prove they've got the finances/income and if other areas if the club are up to scratch eg development, marketing, attendances etc

 

None of the Championship and a couple of SL clubs have the finances, or the income.

 

Only the top SL clubs have the development, attendances are dropping, and "marketing" means nothing unless it is effective - and as I say attendances are dropping.

 

Nobody is interested in the relegation battle. Crowds are well down for the three victims, so it's a lovely thought that clubs can step forward "ready" for Superleague.

 

But it's just a thought unless you can put a name to a face?

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I think the most that you can expect from the much-vaunted relegation battle is a thousand or so on the gates at the last few games when the chips are down.

 

Sadly, it won't go far towards the losses these clubs will have suffered between February and mid-August.

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I think the most that you can expect from the much-vaunted relegation battle is a thousand or so on the gates at the last few games when the chips are down.

 

Sadly, it won't go far towards the losses these clubs will have suffered between February and mid-August.

 

Where from? The gates are a thousand or so down on average across all the bottom clubs.

 

Now the "clear blue water" is starting to form between London, Bradford, Wakey and the rest do you think any of their crowds are going to go up Griff??

 

Posters have already pointed to Bradford.v.Wakefield being the likely crunch game which if it happens will be in line with previous P & R seasons when we had the odd game with a bigger crowd.

 

But it won't be bigger unless Bulls have pulled back some points and to be bigger it would have to beat last years 10,400. Griff you've gone all optomistic on me!

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I dunno Steve, I've just seen a clapped out Wakefield, easily beaten by Leeds. A bunch of journeymen with no quality young kids rising through the ranks. They're shaping up to be SL also rans, but if they did drop down and collapse I'd be sure that Fev, Batley, Fax. Sheffield. Leigh or Donny would be there picking over the bones. For as Griff asks who is there to buy?

 

I think Griff is spot on with his posts, and for me "earning promotion" will be no more that earning the right to take the place of an SL also ran, and just be another SL also ran. Still that's variety.

I don't what what the answer is though Parky? Even the optimists must agree that the game will not grow outside its traditional boundaries without the truly super clubs giving such as London an increased salary cap and a bigger slice of the Sky money at their own expense.

The best alternative is to hold on to what we have, and we have to find a way of giving the top Championship clubs something to aspire to. Fev would be the sensible choice for a SL franchise, but it would sit uneasy with me and many others for them to gain entry this way. Yet turning it down could reverse the trend of growth that has been building up steadily over the years. Something for all top Championship clubs to dream about is a much better alternative, and would help to bring in the crowds.

Regarding who would there be to buy? I can remember the time Wally Lewis came to Wakefield on a short term contract. Maybe one or two NRL stars might fancy a short break if their parent club were unlikely to make their play-offs. I know Wally didn't save Trinity from relegation, but it certainly raised their profile at the time, and I and many others went to watch him as a neutral. 

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I don't what what the answer is though Parky? Even the optimists must agree that the game will not grow outside its traditional boundaries without the truly super clubs giving such as London an increased salary cap and a bigger slice of the Sky money at their own expense.The best alternative is to hold on to what we have, and we have to find a way of giving the top Championship clubs something to aspire to.

 

I found Schofield's "no room at the top" article depressing. Leeds, Wigan and Saints pretty much dominating ad nauseum. Rich men the answer? Well Moran and Davey have spent a heck of a lot to get not sure where. Not sure Koukash can break the mould either. City clubs at Hull, Bradford and Wakey have disappointed big time recently. Ah well.....

 

New structure and new money announced yet relegation crowds are down over 1,000 a match. Is the key giving championship clubs something to aspire to? I'll enjoy Fev, Leigh and Fax battling to replace useless SL clubs but I don't expect them to do any better once they get there. They'll hit the same buffers most SL clubs hit.

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I don't what what the answer is though Parky?

 

You must have noticed that there are less pubs than there used to be, Steve ?  Sharlston now has a new chemist and one less pub, Ponte Carlo has estate agents and vets operating out of former pubs .... you must have seen a few more.

 

What happens when people don't use facilities is they close down.  The fact is - a few enthusiasts are keeping a lot of RL clubs open.  Fact.

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I found Schofield's "no room at the top" article depressing. Leeds, Wigan and Saints pretty much dominating ad nauseum. Rich men the answer? Well Moran and Davey have spent a heck of a lot to get not sure where. Not sure Koukash can break the mould either. City clubs at Hull, Bradford and Wakey have disappointed big time recently. Ah well.....

 

New structure and new money announced yet relegation crowds are down over 1,000 a match. Is the key giving championship clubs something to aspire to? I'll enjoy Fev, Leigh and Fax battling to replace useless SL clubs but I don't expect them to do any better once they get there. They'll hit the same buffers most SL clubs hit.

I don't think anyone would expect them to do any better, but would they do any worse? It's certainly better than these aspiring clubs losing interest and kids stopping playing the game in these areas. I also feel that the proposed structure would give some relegated clubs a springboard to turn themselves around and come back up much stronger than when they were spending year upon year in Super League mediocrity.

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1. I don't think anyone would expect them to do any better, but would they do any worse?

 

2. It's certainly better than these aspiring clubs losing interest and kids stopping playing the game in these areas.

 

3. I also feel that the proposed structure would give some relegated clubs a springboard to turn themselves around and come back up much stronger than when they were spending year upon year in Super League mediocrity.

 

1. I don't think they'd do any worse than the shambles the bottom 3 SL clubs are in Steve, no. So maybe that's why P & R is back (it's certainly not for bigger crowds as per the totally unfounded KPMG claim already discredited by the facts) because protecting clubs from relegation to enable them to "grow" actually did not work. It's fair enough we have P & R back.

 

2. From my research not that many kids play the game in Championship areas anyway. Sure if Featherstone Rovers or Leigh got a sustained run in Superleague more kids could be interested in playing but bear the following in mind:-

 

a. Steve Gill's Castleford have been a superleague side for what? 16 out of 18 seasons now? Steve says less kids are playing RL in Castleford so you have no guarantee a struggling SL club will stimulate fan and player growth.

 

And that runs full circle back to Ralph Rimmer assertion in 2006 that having a decent run of seasons in Superleague would allow a club to develop the player and fan base. It did not happen for the bottom clubs so we cannot have it both ways. We cannot deride the failure of SL clubs who did not grow fans and players then predict championship clubs taking their place will buck the trend and..........

 

b. If being in the championship loses fans and players just how many fans and how many kids does the game stand to lose in Bradford if they don't come back after a relegation??  

 

3. With respoect your perpetuating the myth that getting relegated allows a club to "come back stronger". there is no evidence at all for this and again you are saying that going down means a clubs gets less interest from fans watching and kids playing, yet you tell me that is a springboard to coming back stronger.

 

I've heard it 1,000 times Steve and posted 1,000 times asking people to give me good reason why this should be so?

All I then get is derision for another 1,000 posts saying the same thing because I never get an answer. Oddly it comes from championship fans who want to argue SL clubs down. "Relegation will be good for them".  Why????

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You must have noticed that there are less pubs than there used to be, Steve ?  Sharlston now has a new chemist and one less pub, Ponte Carlo has estate agents and vets operating out of former pubs .... you must have seen a few more.

 

What happens when people don't use facilities is they close down.  The fact is - a few enthusiasts are keeping a lot of RL clubs open.  Fact.

 

The distribution of new SKY money has also preserved the past. At the risk of saying the same thing again (which we all do really) the success we do have in fan and player growth comes from the Elite (not SL) clubs and there aren't enough of them.

 

Bigger clubs based on wider populations may not be the answer, but it's the only logical radical plan I can see to remove the current malaise, and if big clubs preserve the TV contracts which in turn preserve the game it's less of a risk than people think.

 

A number of the big games in SL this year are 1,000 down on last years crowds as well as all the bottom of the table relegation zone crowds. The SKY money papers those cracks, and for the lack of player development I note Koukash has nobody left to buy, until he gets the chance to offer other clubs players more money, so he now wants to employ an Aussie guru to "unearth" missed antipodean talent.

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