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Wolford6

Wigan Investing in Welsh Rugby League

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Having been to Wrexham on Sunday to watch Batley, I was pleasantly surprised at the atmosphere and number of supporters the Crusaders have - the place was bouncing when they scored - nice to see that the game is beginning to flourish in that part of Wales, I hope they can continue to grow and firmly establish themselves in that area, there seems to be lots of interest and the fans were great fun and very hospitable.

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just out of interest why wouldn't you rank saints with leeds and wigan?

Also whats the point of U23s?

 

Long term Academy success and player production, 23's allows the 'squad' to play in a competitive comp with the game structures they would be expected to use in a first team game

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If someone, sometime had not started the junior game in Wales in direct contradiction to your suggested development path, then there would have been no game there for Wigan to tap into. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

The junior game took off on the back of Celtic Crusaders whom many on here wanted to see the back of.

 

Wigan are trying to rescue it.

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Long term Academy success and player production, 23's allows the 'squad' to play in a competitive comp with the game structures they would be expected to use in a first team game

Isn't that what dual reg is for? Dual reg benefits both clubs! Under 23s would stave tier 2 clubs of players until they were 23 and SL clubs would keep hold of players who would never make it just to make up a squad of players, paying these players would then take vital money away from the elite clubs!

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The junior game took off on the back of Celtic Crusaders whom many on here wanted to see the back of.

Wigan are trying to rescue it.

celtic crusaders with long term backing would be looking pretty now but short termism left the door open for wigan opertunism! Just imagine all the welsh talent coming through playing for a welsh elite SL team with the welsh junior clubs feeding into it! Also the elite welsh club would have sold the world cup a lot better also!!

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The junior game took off on the back of Celtic Crusaders whom many on here wanted to see the back of.

 

Wigan are trying to rescue it.

 Wigan are in it for Wigan. If there was no up side for Wigan, as in, Welsh players for the Warriors, Wigan wouldn't put a red cent into Welsh junior rugby. There's no selfless all for the good of the game intent behind this "rescue".

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Frankly as a South Wales RL fan I have yet to see any benefit to our club and the game here from Wigan's involvement in the set up of the WRL academy.  The dual reg agreement that thankfully hasn't been continued this year, very nearly brought about the clubs' demise last season, and undermined much of the hard work our development officers, coaches and local players had collectively put in over the years to achieve the standards required. We need a local investor who is willing to spend time and money, with a passion to support the game here for the benefit of South Wales RL and Wales Rugby League, not for the benefit of Wigan. I understand why they would use it to their advantage and I am sure some of our academy players have used their experience and teaching to good benefit, but long term it will be unsustainable.

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 There's no selfless all for the good of the game intent behind this "rescue".

 

Nobody said there was, and no doubt Wigan develop the Junior game in their own area for their own purposes.

 

But your previous comment you use this idea to deflect from was nonsense, Celtic Crusaders were the catalyst for the growth of the junior game in south wales and as experienced and qualified commentators say London's exit from Superleague will also mean a demise in Junior RL there.

 

Yet one of the famous Forum myths that kids will take RL seriously in number around the country clamouring to travel north to be RL professionals along the M62 will no doubt continue.

 

Reality as shown by logic and events and not wishful thinking is that the games best chance for junior development is on their own doorstep., borne out by how even Leeds can find places close to home to develop JRL where before it was non existent.

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celtic crusaders with long term backing would be looking pretty now but short termism left the door open for wigan opertunism! Just imagine all the welsh talent coming through playing for a welsh elite SL team with the welsh junior clubs feeding into it! Also the elite welsh club would have sold the world cup a lot better also!!

I take it your referring to RL in South Wales? North Wales seems to have to do things via North Wales Crusaders as the WRL seem to have the vast majority of the organisation in the South - probably because that is where the majority of the rugby talent is. However a talented youngster from the North is going to find it really difficult to travel to Maesteg for academy training and will either develop with North Wales Crusaders or try on of the North West clubs in easy travelling distance.

 

As for the World Cup - we attracted almost 14000 supporters to the 2 games held at the Racecourse, and one of the games didn't feature Wales at all. Credit where its due I think RLWC2013 was sold well in the North.

 

I should add that I am pleased to see any investment in RL in Wales so well done to Wigan for this initiative.

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Virtually no RL played in Liverpool . Soccer rules totally , the average kid from Liverpool hasn't even heard of rugby, never mind RL.

Virtually all the Rugby playing schools play The dark side if not all.

A bit pie in the sky that one. James Graham is most certainly the exception.

Saints have been involved with rugby league in Liverpool for years.  For a few years they have run a world cup schools competition, when various schools adopt a particular country and compete as that country, with Paul Wellens presenting the trophy to the winning school.  That's on top of the regular work done in Liverpool schools and with the Liverpool amateur clubs.  In addition, Saints officially support a newly formed wheelchair rugby league team in Liverpool.  They opened the season by playing a team based in Scotland.  Saints also include the Liverpool junior teams in their halftime schools matches during home games.  I think Widnes also work in Liverpool and there has been some talk recently about Saints and Widnes combining their efforts.

 

Saints also have a link school in Mold, North Wales, where they have been running coaching and other courses.

 

Saints also have some international involvement.  I don't know whether they still have their link with the Canadian club that they had when our previous assistant coach was in place (now assistant at Hudds) but there was a brief report in the last match programme of their links with rugby league development in two European nations.

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Saints have been involved with rugby league in Liverpool for years.  For a few years they have run a world cup schools competition, when various schools adopt a particular country and compete as that country, with Paul Wellens presenting the trophy to the winning school.  That's on top of the regular work done in Liverpool schools and with the Liverpool amateur clubs.  In addition, Saints officially support a newly formed wheelchair rugby league team in Liverpool.  They opened the season by playing a team based in Scotland.  Saints also include the Liverpool junior teams in their halftime schools matches during home games. 

 

Love your posts. Your club is one of the games most successful and like Leeds and Wigan as

Gary Schofield pointed out, it is the development of their own local players that makes for such strong teams over the years

 

The reality for Saints as you have kindly pointed out above, is there is much to be done "on the doorstep", same with Leeds where a whole area across north Leeds was Rugby Union, and is now slowly and quietly being turned to league by Leeds.

 

Wigan have the advantage of possibly saturating their area with junior development, in Bradford as pointed out the other year RL for kids is a south Bradford thing so again there's so much development to do in our own back yards where it is most cost effective and where we get the best results.

 

I think Wigan's support is based on there being an academy to support, and to try to stop a retreat to the north for junior RL. I can see why they are doing this which is a double edged sword of self interest and more general for the good of the game (arguably self interest in a round about way!). We have similar academies for Cumbria, North East. Midlands and London don't we? So are other top SL clubs to partner with them??

 

For me I hope this creates a better flow of talent, but I expect that the close to home areas are more likely to deliver....

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Nobody said there was, and no doubt Wigan develop the Junior game in their own area for their own purposes.

 

But your previous comment you use this idea to deflect from was nonsense, Celtic Crusaders were the catalyst for the growth of the junior game in south wales and as experienced and qualified commentators say London's exit from Superleague will also mean a demise in Junior RL there.

 

Yet one of the famous Forum myths that kids will take RL seriously in number around the country clamouring to travel north to be RL professionals along the M62 will no doubt continue.

 

Reality as shown by logic and events and not wishful thinking is that the games best chance for junior development is on their own doorstep., borne out by how even Leeds can find places close to home to develop JRL where before it was non existent.

 

Wigan were the happy recipients of a century old junior game in Wigan. They are aiding and assisting no doubt but their junior base long pre dated SL

 

If you read "A Welsh Crusade, Rugby League in Wales 1990 to 2009' by Ian Golden you will see that RL in Wales was well on the way before a SL team appeared on the horizon in 2008, to depart a couple of years later. There is no SL side in Wales and Welsh junior rugby is still there. Your obsession with SL being the fountainhead of everything is getting stale.

 

I am willing to bet that any London exit from SL will not have too injurious effect on junior RL there. The junior game South of the river and in the Skolars area and around Hemel  and Gillingham is far away from the Broncos sphere of influence. How strong is the game in Twickenham, the Broncos back yard for the last decade ?

 

You have espoused the view before that kids take up RL with a view to having a pro career. In my opinion, nothing could be farther from the truth. They take up the game as a form of enjoyment and exercise and hanging with their mates, aided and encouraged by teachers, development officers and local amateur clubs. Any thoughts of a pro career will not surface until their potential is seen much later and the number of southern produced players in northern Sl sides would suggest that they will travel north for fame and fortune just as they will travel to the other side of the globe from the north.

 

I fully agree that there is plenty of scope for growing junior RL in the northern :strongholds".

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RL in Wales was well on the way before a SL team appeared on the horizon in 2008, to depart a couple of years later. There is no SL side in Wales and Welsh junior rugby is still there.

 

I am willing to bet that any London exit from SL will not have too injurious effect on junior RL there.

 

I fully agree that there is plenty of scope for growing junior RL in the northern :strongholds".

 

I'm pleased you agree with the latter and my further point was its easier and more cost effective for Leeds to spend their budget developing the game in North Leeds than South Gloucester. Agree??.

 

As for you two opening statements. We should bow to anyone who knows the junior game well in these two areas as to wHether they think an SL presence is no matter and as to whether the junior game will grow apace despite it?

 

That should ensure we don't bore anyone disagreeing. Any takers out there? If not we'll beg to differ there.

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I am willing to bet that any London exit from SL will not have too injurious effect on junior RL there. The junior game South of the river and in the Skolars area and around Hemel  and Gillingham is far away from the Broncos sphere of influence. How strong is the game in Twickenham, the Broncos back yard for the last decade ?

 

And on what basis do you make that claim? All the junior work was being done in Hounslow, Kingston and Surrey whilst we were in Twickers, but now all that hard work is gone, with the loss of development officers and the move to Edgware. The RFL will pay for one RL dev officer in an area where there are no junior or senior rl clubs and rl is an alien sport, in Harrow. 

 

Skolars are heavily reliant on Broncos for players, without them they will also suffer. The only players that will 'move North' will be the established players like Krasniqi, McMeeken, Dixon, Bishay etc. The academy players will be lost to the game completely, whether to union, football, uni or wherever they decide to go. 

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Nobody said there was, and no doubt Wigan develop the Junior game in their own area for their own purposes.

 

But your previous comment you use this idea to deflect from was nonsense, Celtic Crusaders were the catalyst for the growth of the junior game in south wales and as experienced and qualified commentators say London's exit from Superleague will also mean a demise in Junior RL there.

 

Yet one of the famous Forum myths that kids will take RL seriously in number around the country clamouring to travel north to be RL professionals along the M62 will no doubt continue.

 

Reality as shown by logic and events and not wishful thinking is that the games best chance for junior development is on their own doorstep., borne out by how even Leeds can find places close to home to develop JRL where before it was non existent.

 

Amazing how Crusaders' demise didn't result in the collapse of junior rugby in Wales even though you insisted at the time that it would. Yet now you are playing the "Broncos demise will lead to the death of London junior rugby" with a similar lack of awareness.

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The junior game took off on the back of Celtic Crusaders whom many on here wanted to see the back of.

 

Wigan are trying to rescue it.

Again your recollection is somewhat skewed.

 

Others argued that Crusaders were being rushed into SL and would inevitably collapse and leave grassroots rugby in the local area in a mess. Which is exactly what happened.

 

You choose to pretend that evil flatties were conspiring to bring Welsh rugby down because it suits your interests to do so. The reality in 99% of cases was that the so-called flatties cared a lot more about expansion than you do and wanted a sustainable side.

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Yet now you are playing the "Broncos demise will lead to the death of London junior rugby" with a similar lack of awareness.

 

Yes it will. If you want to live in a fantasy world where 15/16 year olds will move 200 miles up north and away from their families for the chance to potentially play RL, then go ahead. 

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Yes it will. If you want to live in a fantasy world where 15/16 year olds will move 200 miles up north and away from their families for the chance to potentially play RL, then go ahead. 

I'm struggling to see how Broncos dropping a division or even disappearing altogether would result in that happening.

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I'm struggling to see how Broncos dropping a division or even disappearing altogether would result in that happening.

 

Well then it's safe to say you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

Exhibit A: November 2013. London Broncos still unable to say whether the club will still be in SL for 2014, or even in existence. London Broncs youth players Mason Caton Brown, Oscar Thomas and Saeed Agboke join London Irish on trial due to the situation at Broncos. Broncos survive and Caton-Brown (already a SL player at that point) and Agboke return, in order to stay with the club. However Oscar Thomas, along with Harry Little who is now at Nottingham Uni playing RU, are lost to the Broncos and RL in general. 

 

I'd like to know why you think that situation won't occur again and again. Union will be celebrating the loss of top flight RL in the area, sadly though so called RL fans will be celebrating even more. 

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And on what basis do you make that claim? All the junior work was being done in Hounslow, Kingston and Surrey whilst we were in Twickers, but now all that hard work is gone, with the loss of development officers and the move to Edgware. The RFL will pay for one RL dev officer in an area where there are no junior or senior rl clubs and rl is an alien sport, in Harrow. 

 

Skolars are heavily reliant on Broncos for players, without them they will also suffer. The only players that will 'move North' will be the established players like Krasniqi, McMeeken, Dixon, Bishay etc. The academy players will be lost to the game completely, whether to union, football, uni or wherever they decide to go. 

 

I bow to your superior knowledge of RL in London. However, do Skolars not run junior teams of local youngsters.? Do not Hemel do the same.? Does the thriving Medway organisation depend on the Broncos.? What of the new South London club  and the Brixton and Croyden junior outfits.?

 

Are these teams not still playing.? I do not think the current Broncos outfit is luring them in with dreams of a SL career.

 

The academy players will either go to Skolars or Hemel or, if they are outstanding SL clubs will snap them up. After all the only RU outlet in London is Harlequins ?

 

Maybe a London team will advance to SL. Doubtful but some amazing developments have taken place on our game in recent years.

 

I have a gut feeling that junior RL in London has made such progress in London that it will survive the loss of the Broncos, especially as they are currently constituted.

 

Time will tell. Maybe we are all wrong and the Broncos will emerge rejuvenated and triumphant. it would be good for the game.

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I take it your referring to RL in South Wales? North Wales seems to have to do things via North Wales Crusaders as the WRL seem to have the vast majority of the organisation in the South - probably because that is where the majority of the rugby talent is. However a talented youngster from the North is going to find it really difficult to travel to Maesteg for academy training and will either develop with North Wales Crusaders or try on of the North West clubs in easy travelling distance.

As for the World Cup - we attracted almost 14000 supporters to the 2 games held at the Racecourse, and one of the games didn't feature Wales at all. Credit where its due I think RLWC2013 was sold well in the North.

I should add that I am pleased to see any investment in RL in Wales so well done to Wigan for this initiative.

yes sorry I should have inserted south....

NW seem to be going from strength to strength and good luck! Another successful Superleague club from outside M62 is what the sport needs (a club that sits atop a strong pyramid)...IMO a strong NW club would see a pick up in interest from the south!

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Well then it's safe to say you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

Exhibit A: November 2013. London Broncos still unable to say whether the club will still be in SL for 2014, or even in existence. London Broncs youth players Mason Caton Brown, Oscar Thomas and Saeed Agboke join London Irish on trial due to the situation at Broncos. Broncos survive and Caton-Brown (already a SL player at that point) and Agboke return, in order to stay with the club. However Oscar Thomas, along with Harry Little who is now at Nottingham Uni playing RU, are lost to the Broncos and RL in general. 

 

I'd like to know why you think that situation won't occur again and again. Union will be celebrating the loss of top flight RL in the area, sadly though so called RL fans will be celebrating even more. 

It's not safe at all.

 

You don't seem to be able to distinguish between grassroots rugby and professional rugby.

 

Clearly professional players need a professional team to play for but that doesn't mean that you cannot have grassroots development without a professional side.

 

There will be players like McCarthy-Scarsbrook and Sarginson coming through regardless, they just won't be playing for Broncos, northern sides need to do a Wigan and scout the area lest these players be lost to RU. But the attitude that these guys will never play RL without Broncos is just silly, Wigan certainly don't seem to believe this of south Wales.

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I bow to your superior knowledge of RL in London. However, do Skolars not run junior teams of local youngsters.? Do not Hemel do the same.? Does the thriving Medway organisation depend on the Broncos.? What of the new South London club  and the Brixton and Croyden junior outfits.?

 

Are these teams not still playing.? I do not think the current Broncos outfit is luring them in with dreams of a SL career.

 

The academy players will either go to Skolars or Hemel or, if they are outstanding SL clubs will snap them up. After all the only RU outlet in London is Harlequins ?

 

Maybe a London team will advance to SL. Doubtful but some amazing developments have taken place on our game in recent years.

 

I have a gut feeling that junior RL in London has made such progress in London that it will survive the loss of the Broncos, especially as they are currently constituted.

 

Time will tell. Maybe we are all wrong and the Broncos will emerge rejuvenated and triumphant. it would be good for the game.

For all the "Broncos generate interest in RL in London" mantra being repeated ad nasuem here, you'd think there would be some evidence to back it up.

 

Ironically development has been far stronger outside London than inside London. Hemel will probably finish above Skolars in only their second season in the semi-pro league. If you are talking about youth development in the South East then Medway Dragons are as big a name as they get. Medway is not particularly close to London.

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That's what all SL clubs should be doing. Each club should invest in a targetted area. They could help with development and also take games there. This would help promote their club, SL and RL in general and hopefully start to produce players from that area some of whom may filter through to the top level with others strengthening the local professional and amatuer clubs.

Whilst Wigan are doing a good thing first and formost a good thing for them but also vital for the game; they are fortunate enough to have cash to burn. I don't think you could expect Wakey or Bradford to do the same.

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There will be players like McCarthy-Scarsbrook and Sarginson coming through regardless, they just won't be playing for Broncos, northern sides need to do a Wigan and scout the area lest these players be lost to RU. But the attitude that these guys will never play RL without Broncos is just silly, Wigan certainly don't seem to believe this of south Wales.

 

Why haven't they shown any interest before then? The only reason LMS and Sarginson are playing up North, is because they were playing SL in London. It has nothing to do with Northern clubs scouting the region. I guarantee you neither of those two aforementioned players would be professional RL players without a SL team in London. 

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