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LordCharles

Salford sign 4 more!

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Apologies for mixing anyone up. It's churlish to say that Fages isn't a product of Salford's academy, given the age he was recruited at. Anyway, bored now.

My view on all this is that the locally developed player thing is overstated. 

 

I was reading the stuff about the FA Premier League and the fact that they currently have around 66 starting players a week from England. In Super League we have probably not far off double that for a game which is played in quite a condensed area, we haven't done bad to find that many athletes who put on great entertainment every week.

 

Of course it would be great if we could all field rucks of players from our own Academy, but in reality, this is pretty rare in any sport anywhere in the world. We should be looking all over the country (and Europe) for talent.

 

I couldn't care less whether Fages was developed by Salford, Catalan, Pia or whoever (the only reason I responded was because there was a suggestion that his family had real issues with Catalan). 

The amount of British talent running round in SL putting on great entertainment each week is good for me, and I think we are overly harsh expecting clubs to recruit from an area just a few miles squared.

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Dave T and Viking Warrior share an unerring knack for shifting the goalposts in order to suit their strange brand of logic.

One of you (I can't remember which one, but who cares?) made a comment about Salford not producing any SL players. I named half a dozen or so current SL players and you both started moving the goalposts.

So predictable it's boring!

Viking Warrior also offered to run naked up Deansgate if our stadium was ever completed

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Of course it would be great if we could all field rucks of players from our own Academy, We should be looking all over the country (and Europe) for talent.

 

The amount of British talent running round in SL putting on great entertainment each week is good for me, and I think we are overly harsh expecting clubs to recruit from an area just a few miles squared.

 

Indeed clubs should to recruit from  all over the country and Europe to get the best team they can, even if that meant not a single squad player was born within 20 miles of the club.

 

Problem is vast swathes of England let alone Europe don't produce quality RL players, the majority of quality European Rugby League talent comes from pockets of central west Yorkshire, Humberside and East Lancashire,So the reality is clubs fight over each others players.

 

I agree that despite the shortage of quality players and the drain of the best senior and junior players to Australia, we still have great games to watch, but I put that down to the game itself. RL is a fantastic sport because two evenly matched teams at any level - even under 10's - can for me produce great entertainment.

 

Ultimately if there was no salary cap Mr. Koukash could buy up all the best Wigan produce and win trophies, would Salford then become a junior RL hotbed? Would Wigan's junior game go on attracting the kids shorn of success?

 

I think it matters that we have a lot more talent, the manifestation of the lack of it is the same two or three clubs winning everything and the regression back to a 12 team, or arguably an 8 team competition.......

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Academy is vital for Salford's progress as if we're going to have a number of big names playing for the Reds, cap space for the rest of the squad will be limited meaning we'll need a steady flow of hungry young kids to fill in the gaps. That's where the big clubs (ie Saints, Wigan, Leeds) have a big advantage right now. I'd say Wigan are particularly adept at this.

 

Obviously we're not going to throwing up players left, right and centre just yet though as the investment from the Doc into the youth scheme has only recently begun and will take quite a few years to mature. It was nice to hear a shout out to the local teams like Bury Broncos, Eccles, Folly Lane & Mancunians at last night's game though. Hopefully that's a sign that Salford are linking up well with the local teams we have out there.

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Academy is vital for Salford's progress as if we're going to have a number of big names playing for the Reds, cap space for the rest of the squad will be limited meaning we'll need a steady flow of hungry young kids to fill in the gaps. That's where the big clubs (ie Saints, Wigan, Leeds) have a big advantage right now. I'd say Wigan are particularly adept at this.

Obviously we're not going to throwing up players left, right and centre just yet though as the investment from the Doc into the youth scheme has only recently begun and will take quite a few years to mature. It was nice to hear a shout out to the local teams like Bury Broncos, Eccles, Folly Lane & Mancunians at last night's game though. Hopefully that's a sign that Salford are linking up well with the local teams we have out there.

Couldn't agree more that salfords academy is vital for the red devils in the long term and that it's going to take at least a decade of investment and building before the red devils will start to get a return from this. I'm no expert on grassroots development and can appreciate that you just can't magic up amateur teams in places like Hulme, moss side, Trafford etc of the likes of amateur teams like kells, Wigan st.pats, west hull etc but I do hope that new clubs in those areas mentioned and others in and around Manchester spring up, more kids playing RL increases the talent pool not only for Salford but other super league clubs and championship clubs.

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Viking Warrior also offered to run naked up Deansgate if our stadium was ever completed

I remember that very well. He never gives up hating us does he?

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I remember that very well. He never gives up hating us does he?

 

Well you can't expect the dwindling bunch of Swinton fans to carry that burden by themselves.

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Ratchford, Turner, Sneyd, Fages, Walton, Walne and Walne all playing regular Super League right now.

Pottsy - And Owen & Evalds SHOULD be.

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Academy is vital for Salford's progress as if we're going to have a number of big names playing for the Reds, cap space for the rest of the squad will be limited meaning we'll need a steady flow of hungry young kids to fill in the gaps. That's where the big clubs (ie Saints, Wigan, Leeds) have a big advantage right now. I'd say Wigan are particularly adept at this.

 

Obviously we're not going to throwing up players left, right and centre just yet though as the investment from the Doc into the youth scheme has only recently begun and will take quite a few years to mature. It was nice to hear a shout out to the local teams like Bury Broncos, Eccles, Folly Lane & Mancunians at last night's game though. Hopefully that's a sign that Salford are linking up well with the local teams we have out there.

 

Mo Lyndsay identified the need for adequate "resources" if the game was to keep it's strength and grow. Fans are such a resource, and if not present in enough numbers private money can make up for that. Dr. Koukash can leave £20 in the till for every seat unoccupied at each salford home game.

 

But the resource of players is something you cannot always buy, as it's like the limited bread available in the wartime bakery. There's a queue, and as much money as you may personally have you are rationed. Dr..K. will spend up to his ration of £1.65M and will have to take a couple of stale loaves as that is all that is "on the shelves".

 

I think it's vital the game develops it's own players. I just don't see a world out there where you can just reach out into and bring professional players in without having to bother to do anything yourself. Blimey, it's not as if the likes of  locals Swinton, Oldham or Rochdale are nurturing Superleague material for Dr. K to pick off as they mature to professional level. If the professional game needs to develop players because they ain't available from elsewhere in any great number, then it's the professional clubs that need to do it.

 

It's doable, and as you say it takes time. What it also takes is a local junior game to provide the players to develop and it sounds good that the club intend to bolster their fledgling local amateur junior clubs in and around salford/manchester.

 

What I would fear is a salford academy in which the scouts solely go round the established junior clubs in Wigan, Warrington, Leigh, Oldham and St. Helens and identify players the Doctor can try to entice to Salford. That would be simply allocating the same limited resources to a different SL club rather than growing the resources base, a trick Mr. Davey I believe was criticised for as regards the Huddersfield academy. 

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What I would fear is a salford academy in which the scouts solely go round the established junior clubs in Wigan, Warrington, Leigh, Oldham and St. Helens and identify players the Doctor can try to entice to Salford. That would be simply allocating the same limited resources to a different SL club rather than growing the resources base, a trick Mr. Davey I believe was criticised for as regards the Huddersfield academy. 

I'd expect there to be some poaching of talent for the academy to go on. Dr K wants success now so I'd expect someone must be looking at targeting what talent is out there currently to try and bring Salford's standards up at that level. I'd be disappointed if there wasn't but equally disappointed if that's the only tactic for fresh talent. There are supposed to be links with new clubs and school programs going on but we'll not find out how successful that is for years. From the noises we hear from the club, things are moving in the right direction.

 

Incidentally. watched the year 9/10 final before the Rochdale game yesterday playing nines (I've no idea what age year 9/10 is but presume they were around 14-16) and there was a couple of class acts on show in what were terrible conditions. There's talent around but I wonder how many of these lads are contacted let alone trialled by the likes of Salford. Hopefully most are but my knowledge of academy and below is pretty much non-existent.

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Was the crowd really only 2,900 v KR as reported by Super League full time? Shocking if true

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i see that folly lane juniors are appealing for cash to help them pay their ground rent this year, but they are only a club producing young players for salford....

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Was the crowd really only 2,900 v KR as reported by Super League full time? Shocking if true

No crowd announced on the night, felt like a bit more than that but it was a sparse turnout. 2903 according to therfl.co.uk.

 

It was a shocking evening weatherwise but that's still a disappointing figure.

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I'd expect there to be some poaching of talent for the academy to go on. Dr K wants success now so I'd expect someone must be looking at targeting what talent is out there currently to try and bring Salford's standards up at that level.

 

I'd be disappointed if there wasn't but equally disappointed if that's the only tactic for fresh talent. There are supposed to be links with new clubs and school programs going on but we'll not find out how successful that is for years. 

 

Indeed Mr Eldujo, Salford should chase any talent from anywhere, and should develop the game in their own area too. It's not an either or choice.

 

For Leeds and Wigan having talent coming through keeps a successful ship steady on a cost efective basis, and when you have a successful ship the local kids want to join it. When you don't have success the top local kids tend to look to travel to the bigger clubs to join their academies.

 

Unsure of which Salford/Manchester born lads have avoided Salford? Anyone??

 

Only top SL clubs really inspire, nurture and develop professional talent, Championship clubs just tend to take the surplus. Sadly several so called Superleague clubs now feed off the big clubs for their playing roster, a recipe for stagnation and retraction, hence we're heading for a 8 club SL.

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Watkins is the first Trafford born player that springs to mind. Salford only the Morley family. Not sure where Brierley at Leigh comes from but he is a Salford fan. Adam Neil was also a Salford fan.

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Watkins is the first Trafford born player that springs to mind. Salford only the Morley family. Not sure where Brierley at Leigh comes from but he is a Salford fan. Adam Neil was also a Salford fan.

 

Much apprciated - wasn't Dennis betts an Eccles product? As I recall looking at clubs in the salford area there only seemed to be a couple that had a serious junior set up??  

 

Are you disappointed with the crowds? For me the fans aren't daft and the usual suggestion of a lack of "Marketing" isn't the answer, as you need the product in the first place.

 

It seems to me the salary cap has the mans wings firmly clipped?

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Much apprciated - wasn't Dennis betts an Eccles product? As I recall looking at clubs in the salford area there only seemed to be a couple that had a serious junior set up??  

 

Are you disappointed with the crowds? For me the fans aren't daft and the usual suggestion of a lack of "Marketing" isn't the answer, as you need the product in the first place.

 

It seems to me the salary cap has the mans wings firmly clipped?

 

Dennis Betts was born and raised in Salford, but played most of his junior rugby in the Wigan area. Nathan McAvoy, Ian Watson, Adrian Morley and Carlo Napolitano came via the Eccles route.

 

Salford's problem, I think, is that the professional club's lack of success over the past thirty years has led to a decline in interest in the sport in the city, a decline which is exacerbated by having one of the biggest football clubs in Europe on our doorstep, and a slightly smaller, mid-table club even closer in Trafford. Also, any players that do come though in the area - like Morley and Watkins - get tempted away to other clubs, which just adds to the problem. Unfortunately, the only way to address this is to start at the top and build a successful professional club by buying from outside and then hope for a trickle down effect into the city. This seems to be Marwan's plan. He's said on numerous occasions that he wants the club to be sustainable, and that includes developing its own players and, perhaps more importantly, being in a position to keep the players it does develop.

 

At the moment, Marwan's master plan seems to be faltering a bit. I think they were hampered by some, shall we say, questionable recruitment decisions by a recent coach rather than by the salary cap, and it looks like steps have been taken and are being taken to address this. The impact on crowds hasn't yet been as bad as it could have been. Until Saturday's game, the number of home supporters in attendance had been relatively steady, with the reduced attendance against Huddersfield being largely (although not entirely) down to the number of fans Huddersfield brought along, which was, unfortunately, the lowest away attendance we've had this season by some distance. Saturday's game was the first time there's been a significant reduction in home support, and there was also a fairly low turn out from the visitors. Apparently the Saturday kick off was an experiment, but they were up against bad weather and that Eurovision thing so I'm not sure whether it was a failure or just badly timed.

 

Despite recent results, many of the die-hards remain optimistic and feel we're on the right path. Time will tell whether that optimism is misplaced.

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Dennis Betts was born and raised in Salford, but played most of his junior rugby in the Wigan area. Nathan McAvoy, Ian Watson, Adrian Morley and Carlo Napolitano came via the Eccles route.

 

Salford's problem, I think, is that the professional club's lack of success over the past thirty years has led to a decline in interest in the sport in the city, a decline which is exacerbated by having one of the biggest football clubs in Europe on our doorstep, and a slightly smaller, mid-table club even closer in Trafford. Also, any players that do come though in the area - like Morley and Watkins - get tempted away to other clubs, which just adds to the problem. Unfortunately, the only way to address this is to start at the top and build a successful professional club by buying from outside and then hope for a trickle down effect into the city. This seems to be Marwan's plan. He's said on numerous occasions that he wants the club to be sustainable, and that includes developing its own players and, perhaps more importantly, being in a position to keep the players it does develop.

 

At the moment, Marwan's master plan seems to be faltering a bit. I think they were hampered by some, shall we say, questionable recruitment decisions by a recent coach rather than by the salary cap, and it looks like steps have been taken and are being taken to address this. The impact on crowds hasn't yet been as bad as it could have been. Until Saturday's game, the number of home supporters in attendance had been relatively steady, with the reduced attendance against Huddersfield being largely (although not entirely) down to the number of fans Huddersfield brought along, which was, unfortunately, the lowest away attendance we've had this season by some distance. Saturday's game was the first time there's been a significant reduction in home support, and there was also a fairly low turn out from the visitors. Apparently the Saturday kick off was an experiment, but they were up against bad weather and that Eurovision thing so I'm not sure whether it was a failure or just badly timed.

 

Despite recent results, many of the die-hards remain optimistic and feel we're on the right path. Time will tell whether that optimism is misplaced.

Really enjoyed your post like the others did.

 

It remains to be seen what will happen, but for me you can get some strong indications from the progress made by Huddersfield under Davey and Hull.K.R. under Hudgell and I have no doubt Featherstone under Nahaboo can also also look at them and Salford for their likely direction.

 

Being able to make up the lack of gate income is one thing, not being able to spend more than the cap and lacking your own professionals coming through the academy is another thing.

 

BTW All four clubs I mention were adjudged to have weak academies last year so just having an academy is not the point if it doesn't produce pro quality  players.....

 

Rich men tend to be able to guarantee clubs a place in Super league, but not particularly a side competitive enough to topple clubs who can produce their own players. Rich men are also limited not just by cap, but by which players are available on the market. Too many rich men and not enough spare decent players may well become a problem. Fartown won the hubcap after over 10 years of being propped up by Davey. It's been a long haul to find the player to get him there.

 

It's good that we are getting these people coming into the game, it's better than seeing clubs collapse, but for me the increasing demand for quality players from SL chairman with big wallets to open, set against the player drain to the NRL and a relatively stagnant Junior game, may see the odd millionaire chairman or two wondering why he has so much money yet his club has just failed to make the forthcoming SL cut after eighth place courtesy of KPMG......

 

Junior development is the only way that's good for the game, as much as Nahaboo may talk of this, he's also talked of scrapping the cap....

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To some extent Salford's problem is getting a flow of players from the academy/U19s/U21s or whatever into the first team rather than them completely failing to produce any. Prior to the implosion of 2012/13, we had a pretty decent junior set up, with teams that were competing well in their respective competitions and plenty of talented players. Relatively few of them made it to the first team though.There seems to be a blockage somewhere in the pipeline. It's a problem Marwan has spoken about, and is one of the problems set for Shane Flanagan to look at when he comes over (if he comes over).

 

I wonder if it's fear on the part of the first team coaches we've had recently, particularly the last one. To some extent, I can see the reasoning. Do you risk blooding a young player in a struggling team? The answer often seems to be 'no', so the player ends up staying in the junior squad until it's too late. It's no coincidence that the more successful clubs - like Wigan and Leeds - are able to bring more players through, They're able to promote those players into a successful first team environment and I'm sure it rubs off on them. Many other clubs find themselves in the opposite situation.

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Junior development is the only way that's good for the game, as much as Nahaboo may talk of this, he's also talked of scrapping the cap....

    Recently the Under 23's ended,apparently at the request of the Super League clubs and the player pathway reaches decision point at the end of the Under 19's.

    Junior development does not seem a priority.

    The Leeds model seemed to get off the ground courtesy of Kiwi,Dean Bell and other Antipodean personnel have been the head coach at that club.

     The St Helens model,which includes bi-annual trips to Australia,which are successful,are headed by Antipodean head coaches.

    The Wigan model,also very successful has also made use of Antipodean head coaches at one time or another. 

 

      There are shortly to be a reduction in the number of Academies to 8.

 

    In business speak,some clarity and joined-up thinking is required as to the way forward.

 

      Some people just want to watch the best players in the sport plying their trade before their very eyes.

      At the moment the sport isn't really delivering that in this country.

     

       It seems the salary cap restrictions and the player pathway system is in place to frustrate rich owners taking over a Super League club and the past should in no way reflect the future as the goal posts have changed considerably. 

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    Recently the Under 23's ended,apparently at the request of the Super League clubs and the player pathway reaches decision point at the end of the Under 19's.

    Junior development does not seem a priority.

    The Leeds model seemed to get off the ground courtesy of Kiwi,Dean Bell and other Antipodean personnel have been the head coach at that club.

     The St Helens model,which includes bi-annual trips to Australia,which are successful,are headed by Antipodean head coaches.

    The Wigan model,also very successful has also made use of Antipodean head coaches at one time or another. 

 

      There are shortly to be a reduction in the number of Academies to 8.

 

    In business speak,some clarity and joined-up thinking is required as to the way forward.

 

      Some people just want to watch the best players in the sport plying their trade before their very eyes.

      At the moment the sport isn't really delivering that in this country.

     

       It seems the salary cap restrictions and the player pathway system is in place to frustrate rich owners taking over a Super League club and the past should in no way reflect the future as the goal posts have changed considerably. 

 

You 100% certain of that?

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To some extent Salford's problem is getting a flow of players from the academy/U19s/U21s or whatever into the first team rather than them completely failing to produce any. Prior to the implosion of 2012/13, we had a pretty decent junior set up, with teams that were competing well in their respective competitions and plenty of talented players. Relatively few of them made it to the first team though.There seems to be a blockage somewhere in the pipeline.I wonder if it's fear on the part of the first team coaches we've had recently, particularly the last one. To some extent, I can see the reasoning. Do you risk blooding a young player in a struggling team? The answer often seems to be 'no', so the player ends up staying in the junior squad until it's too late. It's no coincidence that the more successful clubs - like Wigan and Leeds - are able to bring more players through, They're able to promote those players into a successful first team environment and I'm sure it rubs off on them. Many other clubs find themselves in the opposite situation.

 

That's a very very considered post apart from the counter argument I would make which is Wigan and Leeds can attract the very best junior players into their academy (They pulled Sinfield in from Oldham, Burrow from Calder and Watkins from Manchester????). The Wigan and Leeds Junior scenes have far more junior clubs at the bottom of their pyramid than such as Salford.

 

So on the numbers game and the attraction game Leeds and Wigan probably bring through more talent that makes the grade because the raw material was there.

 

I just do not believe that the quality of top players at Salford's academy matches or has ever really matched the quality at Leeds.

 

When you look at who doesn't make it or who doesn't get a chance at Leeds, there's a constant string of them and often they end up at lower SL clubs or the Championship clubs. Same at Wigan - their cast offs stock lower SL clubs and Championship clubs.

 

Jodie Broughton played for Queens in Leeds, didn't make it with Leeds yet is now with the holders of the league leaders trophy after a successful stint at Salford. With respect I cannot grasp the idea that Salford's  academy has had top class RL professionals in it who have been both blocked and discarded, especially as Salford have had the opportunity in a close shop SL to play anyone they wanted.

 

Yes I suppose playing in a losing team doesn't help a young player, but the £Million Dollar question is if Wigan and Salford had suddenly switched academies four years ago would the Salford lads have made it and some of those young Wigan stars have failed instead??

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    The Leeds model seemed to get off the ground courtesy of Kiwi,Dean Bell and other Antipodean personnel have been the head coach at that club.

     The St Helens model,which includes bi-annual trips to Australia,which are successful,are headed by Antipodean head coaches.

    The Wigan model,also very successful has also made use of Antipodean head coaches at one time or another. 

 

      There are shortly to be a reduction in the number of Academies to 8.

 

 

 

Surprise surprise, the effective academies you name belong to the clubs who have been winning the cup and league for many years past and are set to hog those trophies for many years onwards.

 

They do it by developing the important resource of professional players, not by Mr. Rich chucking money about, yet every time a club gets access to a few quid the fantasists think the order of things is going to change overnight. Meanwhile the fans who aren't daft don't get that excited hence 2,900.

 

I'm interested in your snippet as regards a possible academy reduction to eight, it would not surprise me in one way (a tacit acceptance there are too many academies, and useless ones at that)  in another way it would surprise me (A lack of an acceptance the future of top class RL is not recreating the past)

 

Here's the best academies, as scored by the RFL. 

 

Bradford 

Hull FC 

Leeds 

Les Catalans

St Helens 

Warrington

Widnes

Wigan 

 

Seven of the eight were suprise suprise, also the best supported clubs in Super league last year.

 

If Koukash really has any designs on being a real Superleague club and not just one of the also rans "outside the eight" then the academy needs to come first.

 

Note above the disaster the Calder area has become, just a nursery for true Superleague clubs.....

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That's a very very considered post apart from the counter argument I would make which is Wigan and Leeds can attract the very best junior players into their academy (They pulled Sinfield in from Oldham, Burrow from Calder and Watkins from Manchester????). The Wigan and Leeds Junior scenes have far more junior clubs at the bottom of their pyramid than such as Salford.

 

So on the numbers game and the attraction game Leeds and Wigan probably bring through more talent that makes the grade because the raw material was there.

 

I just do not believe that the quality of top players at Salford's academy matches or has ever really matched the quality at Leeds.

 

When you look at who doesn't make it or who doesn't get a chance at Leeds, there's a constant string of them and often they end up at lower SL clubs or the Championship clubs. Same at Wigan - their cast offs stock lower SL clubs and Championship clubs.

 

Jodie Broughton played for Queens in Leeds, didn't make it with Leeds yet is now with the holders of the league leaders trophy after a successful stint at Salford. With respect I cannot grasp the idea that Salford's  academy has had top class RL professionals in it who have been both blocked and discarded, especially as Salford have had the opportunity in a close shop SL to play anyone they wanted.

 

Yes I suppose playing in a losing team doesn't help a young player, but the £Million Dollar question is if Wigan and Salford had suddenly switched academies four years ago would the Salford lads have made it and some of those young Wigan stars have failed instead??

 

I'm not suggesting the flow of young players through the Salford system is anything like those at Wigan and Leeds (and Saints and Hull, to some extent). Clearly, the sport is more popular in those areas than it is in and around Salford, and they each have a much bigger pool of players to choose from. All I'm saying is that Salford haven't been as guilty of completely igonoring their junior set up as it sometimes appears, particularly in recent times under Allan Hunte. The problem has been getting those players into the first team. We seem to let young players go and replace them with players who are little better, in my opinion. Gareth Owen (currently on season long loan at Sheffield) is the one sticking in a lot of Salford fans' craws at the moment.

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I'm not suggesting the flow of young players through the Salford system is anything like those at Wigan and Leeds (and Saints and Hull, to some extent). Clearly, the sport is more popular in those areas than it is in and around Salford, and they each have a much bigger pool of players to choose from. All I'm saying is that Salford haven't been as guilty of completely igonoring their junior set up as it sometimes appears, particularly in recent times under Allan Hunte. The problem has been getting those players into the first team. We seem to let young players go and replace them with players who are little better, in my opinion. Gareth Owen (currently on season long loan at Sheffield) is the one sticking in a lot of Salford fans' craws at the moment.

 

Fair enough John, but bear in mind the RFL's academy ratings on a score of 1-4, 1 being the best, 4 being the worst, Salford scored a 4.

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