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Havenwarrior

Photographer

53 posts in this topic

Yes, the Conferences first, then get linked to a club offering your services for free as a club photographer. You can then sell your photos onto trade papers then hopefully get involved with Super League. I know our photographer Ian Lovell did something like that.

Yes that is more or less exactly it. From starting at Cardiff Demons in 2004, to Crusaders from inception now at Scorpions. Also cover all levels of the Welsh national sides from Under 16 to first xiii. Highlight photographing the boys at Wembley in the 2011 Four Nations.

I cover my costs with sales to League Express, I don't need to make it a career having a decent day job.

Still covering Welsh Conference games too.

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Then put the bleeding thing away and watch the game

 

Do professional photographers feel threatened if amateurs turn up with professional equipment?

 

I cannot see any problem with Haven Warrior taking pictures if that's what floats his boat.

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Do professional photographers feel threatened if amateurs turn up with professional equipment?

 

I cannot see any problem with Haven Warrior taking pictures if that's what floats his boat.

Im not a professional so i cant answer your question, i genuinley dont see the problem either but i dont make the bleedin rules, the rules even hinder what freelancers or professionals can earn, the rules have personally cost me in the region of thousands of pounds in potential print sales, but they are the rules, simple really, abide by them or be prepared to be challenged about breaking them. 

 

Any further questions should be aimed at John Ledger who runs the RFL Media dept but you'll rightly get this sort of reply

 

"Once again please note we are unable to offer RFL accreditation to fans websites, family members, household pets, girlfriends or that nice bloke who sometimes gives you a lift to the game. "

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Do professional photographers feel threatened if amateurs turn up with professional equipment?

 

I cannot see any problem with Haven Warrior taking pictures if that's what floats his boat.

 

The thing is you don't need professional kit to get a decent photo that is good enough for the local (or national) rags to use, if the content is interesting enough. Magazine quality steps it up a notch and advertising quality up another.

 

Is the RFL going to insist that all mobile phones, tablets, compact cameras etc. are left at the turnstiles, could you imagine the uproar if they banned mobile phones because you may take an image that is sell-able with it.

 

If a player's image rights are infringed its up to the player to sue the publisher and photographer, the RFL are going to find harder and harder to regulate as technology moves faster and faster into total integration and image quality of phones and budget cameras gets better.

 

I can understand pro-photographers feeling threatened if some Joe in the stand can get a half decent shot from the terrace and flog it for less than the going rate. However no job is immune to attack from technology. The pro (including ones who sell but it is not their main job) have to up their game to compete and find new markets and produce quality and content that just isn't available from the competition.

 

This sort of thing has gone on in all the digital arena's.

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The pro (including ones who sell but it is not their main job) have to up their game to compete and find new markets and produce quality and content that just isn't available from the competition.

Go on then Padge i'll bite, just exactly how does a "pro" up his game when he already invests in the very best equipment available and already sells to ALL the available markets that exist, in case you didnt know RL Photography is a relatively Niche market which is already over saturated.

 

To be honest, none of the currently accredited photographers i know give a hoot about Joe Public in the stands with his gear, they certainly aren't threatened by them as theres little or nothing they can do with their images which would impact on the accredited photographers income stream, what does irk a lot of accredited guys is the accredited guys who simply dont have anywhere to sell their images because of the oversaturation at games, ive quit the game now, too many "accredited" photographers scrapping for the bits which fall off the table, its really annoying when you turn up week in week out struggling to earn a bob or 2 then when the big games come along some guys get knocked back with their applications because the RFL pander to the likes of Getty who only ever turn up for the big games

 

Its also annoying when you see some of the dross printed by the RL papers

 

If anything is required its that the RFL clamp down even harder on handing out accreditations willy nilly, im No 106 accredited photographer this season and ive seen numbers as high as 170, just how many of these guys can actually be working with an outlet for their images????

 

Like i say, ive quit and i make much more money shooting Juniors on Sunday mornings than i ever did shooting at Headingley, Cas, Huddersfield etc, etc and its easier as theres no restrictions imposed by the RFL, theres also literally hundreds of games to choose from.

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Go on then Padge i'll bite, just exactly how does a "pro" up his game when he already invests in the very best equipment available and already sells to ALL the available markets that exist, in case you didnt know RL Photography is a relatively Niche market which is already over saturated.

 

To be honest, none of the currently accredited photographers i know give a hoot about Joe Public in the stands with his gear, they certainly aren't threatened by them as theres little or nothing they can do with their images which would impact on the accredited photographers income stream, what does irk a lot of accredited guys is the accredited guys who simply dont have anywhere to sell their images because of the oversaturation at games, ive quit the game now, too many "accredited" photographers scrapping for the bits which fall off the table, its really annoying when you turn up week in week out struggling to earn a bob or 2 then when the big games come along some guys get knocked back with their applications because the RFL pander to the likes of Getty who only ever turn up for the big games

 

Its also annoying when you see some of the dross printed by the RL papers

 

If anything is required its that the RFL clamp down even harder on handing out accreditations willy nilly, im No 106 accredited photographer this season and ive seen numbers as high as 170, just how many of these guys can actually be working with an outlet for their images????

 

Like i say, ive quit and i make much more money shooting Juniors on Sunday mornings than i ever did shooting at Headingley, Cas, Huddersfield etc, etc and its easier as theres no restrictions imposed by the RFL, theres also literally hundreds of games to choose from.

 

Well put Gary.

 

I can't remember my pass number this year, but its definitely in the 3 figures. I know its slightly different for us club guys compared to the likes of the agency guys, but there does seem to be a lot more media getting involved.

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Go on then Padge i'll bite, just exactly how does a "pro" up his game when he already invests in the very best equipment available and already sells to ALL the available markets that exist, in case you didnt know RL Photography is a relatively Niche market which is already over saturated.

 

 

Why if search stock images do you get so few RL hits and then its nearly always London.

 

Simon Wilkinson shows what can be done with this, not the classic action shot but...

 

http://simonwilkinson.photoshelter.com/image?&_bqG=113&_bqH=eJzTzQnLLQpPLCwwLM91CzaKLKgyyM1INEtJc8.3MjOxsDI0MABhIOkZ7xLsbFucmKudVFqUnlpcrOYZH.wfFGLr4hjiqgaWjXf0c7EtAbJDg12D4j1dbENBOs0rQzIKI72T8_Kz1eIdnUNsi1MTi5IzADEJJlw-&GI_ID=

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Well put Gary.

 

I can't remember my pass number this year, but its definitely in the 3 figures. I know its slightly different for us club guys compared to the likes of the agency guys, but there does seem to be a lot more media getting involved.

 

 

The game needs more media involvment. The biggest whinge everywhere is the lack of media involvement with RL.

 

200 accredited photographers is about 14 per game, for your average run of the mill game there are about 3 to the ones I go to, so it seems to me that photographers a checking they accredited so that they can ensure they are able to do the big games. Most of those two hundred probably only look to do the prestige games.

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Why if search stock images do you get so few RL hits and then its nearly always London.

 

Simon Wilkinson shows what can be done with this, not the classic action shot but...

 

http://simonwilkinson.photoshelter.com/image?&_bqG=113&_bqH=eJzTzQnLLQpPLCwwLM91CzaKLKgyyM1INEtJc8.3MjOxsDI0MABhIOkZ7xLsbFucmKudVFqUnlpcrOYZH.wfFGLr4hjiqgaWjXf0c7EtAbJDg12D4j1dbENBOs0rQzIKI72T8_Kz1eIdnUNsi1MTi5IzADEJJlw-&GI_ID=

I don't think accredited snappers can sell through stock sites, pretty much limited to selling straight to the media.

 

The game needs more media involvment. The biggest whinge everywhere is the lack of media involvement with RL.

 

200 accredited photographers is about 14 per game, for your average run of the mill game there are about 3 to the ones I go to, so it seems to me that photographers a checking they accredited so that they can ensure they are able to do the big games. Most of those two hundred probably only look to do the prestige games.

There won't be many games at the DW this season with 3 snappers I'd reckon on at least 6 or 7 on average for regular season games.

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I don't think accredited snappers can sell through stock sites, pretty much limited to selling straight to the media.

 

There won't be many games at the DW this season with 3 snappers I'd reckon on at least 6 or 7 on average for regular season games.

 

They can sell for editorial I understand, I could be wrong but London Bronquins have photos on stock sites and others do but are rarer.

 

As for the numbers at Wigan I have rarely noticed more than 4/5 at the DW.

 

I'm not having a go at the guys pitch-side. I'm having a go at the RFL for failing to acknowledge that photography is no different to other digital outlets and changing fast. If the rule is no cameras on the terraces and in the stands then ban mobile phones from being brought into the ground. The photographers pitch-side just have to realise that they are going to be challenged on the technology front, if they want to be earning from it run of the mill try shots may not be what is needed.

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Check out the Ground Regulations.

 

 

They can sell for editorial I understand, I could be wrong but London Bronquins have photos on stock sites and others do but are rarer.

 

As for the numbers at Wigan I have rarely noticed more than 4/5 at the DW.

 

I'm not having a go at the guys pitch-side. I'm having a go at the RFL for failing to acknowledge that photography is no different to other digital outlets and changing fast. If the rule is no cameras on the terraces and in the stands then ban mobile phones from being brought into the ground. The photographers pitch-side just have to realise that they are going to be challenged on the technology front, if they want to be earning from it run of the mill try shots may not be what is needed.

 

 

This is extracted from Shuddersfield Giants:

 

16. Mobile telephones are permitted within the Ground, provided that they are used for personal and private use only PROVIDED THAT no audio, visual or audio-visual material captured by a mobile telephone may be published or otherwise made available to any third parties including, without limitation, via social networking sites.

 

19. Save as set out in paragraph 16 above, no person (other than a person who holds an appropriate licence) may bring into the Ground or use within the Ground any equipment, which is capable of recording or transmitting (by digital or other means) any audio, visual or audio-visual material or any information or data in relation to the Match or the Ground. Copyright, database rights and any other intellectual property rights in any unauthorised recording or transmission is assigned (by way of present assignment of future rights to the Club, the RFL and The Football League. You further agree (if and whenever required to do so by the Club and/or The RFL) to promptly execute all instruments and do all things necessary to vest the right, title and interest in such rights to the Club and The RFL absolutely and with full title guarantee

 

Wigun:

 

16. With the exemption of persons authorised by the Club management and press representatives holding official passes, the taking of photographs or use of video equipment inside the ground is prohibited. In addition, no recording for radio, television or private purposes, whether for transmission or otherwise is permitted, save with a special authorisation in writing by the Club management.

 

Halifax:

 

16. Mobile telephones are permitted within the Ground, provided that they are used for personal and private use only PROVIDED THAT no audio, visual or audio - visual material captured by a mobile telephone may be published or
otherwise made available to any third parties including, without limitation, via social networking sites.

19. Save as set out in paragraph 16 above, no person (other than a person who holds an appropriate licence) may bring into the Ground or use within the Ground any equipment, which is capable of recording or transmitting (by digital or other means) any audio, visual or audio-visual material or any information or data in relation to the Match or the Ground. Copyright, database rights and any other intellectual property rights in any unauthorised recording or transmission is assigned (by way of present assignment of future rights to the Club, the RFL and The Football League.
You further agree (if and whenever required to do so by the Club and/or The RFL) to promptly execute all instruments and do all things necessary to vest the right, title and interest in such rights to the Club and The RFL absolutely and with full title guarantee

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Check out the Ground Regulations.

 

 

 

 

This is extracted from Shuddersfield Giants:

 

16. Mobile telephones are permitted within the Ground, provided that they are used for personal and private use only PROVIDED THAT no audio, visual or audio-visual material captured by a mobile telephone may be published or otherwise made available to any third parties including, without limitation, via social networking sites.

 

19. Save as set out in paragraph 16 above, no person (other than a person who holds an appropriate licence) may bring into the Ground or use within the Ground any equipment, which is capable of recording or transmitting (by digital or other means) any audio, visual or audio-visual material or any information or data in relation to the Match or the Ground. Copyright, database rights and any other intellectual property rights in any unauthorised recording or transmission is assigned (by way of present assignment of future rights to the Club, the RFL and The Football League. You further agree (if and whenever required to do so by the Club and/or The RFL) to promptly execute all instruments and do all things necessary to vest the right, title and interest in such rights to the Club and The RFL absolutely and with full title guarantee

 

Wigun:

 

16. With the exemption of persons authorised by the Club management and press representatives holding official passes, the taking of photographs or use of video equipment inside the ground is prohibited. In addition, no recording for radio, television or private purposes, whether for transmission or otherwise is permitted, save with a special authorisation in writing by the Club management.

 

Halifax:

 

16. Mobile telephones are permitted within the Ground, provided that they are used for personal and private use only PROVIDED THAT no audio, visual or audio - visual material captured by a mobile telephone may be published or

otherwise made available to any third parties including, without limitation, via social networking sites.

19. Save as set out in paragraph 16 above, no person (other than a person who holds an appropriate licence) may bring into the Ground or use within the Ground any equipment, which is capable of recording or transmitting (by digital or other means) any audio, visual or audio-visual material or any information or data in relation to the Match or the Ground. Copyright, database rights and any other intellectual property rights in any unauthorised recording or transmission is assigned (by way of present assignment of future rights to the Club, the RFL and The Football League.

You further agree (if and whenever required to do so by the Club and/or The RFL) to promptly execute all instruments and do all things necessary to vest the right, title and interest in such rights to the Club and The RFL absolutely and with full title guarantee

 

I know these daft regulations exist.

 

So why don't they enforce the rules, I see loads of people all the time taking photos with mobiles and never see a jobsworth asking them to stop. 

 

Its like having a regulation that says do not boo the opposition.

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Why if search stock images do you get so few RL hits and then its nearly always London.

 

Simon Wilkinson shows what can be done with this, not the classic action shot but...

 

http://simonwilkinson.photoshelter.com/image?&_bqG=113&_bqH=eJzTzQnLLQpPLCwwLM91CzaKLKgyyM1INEtJc8.3MjOxsDI0MABhIOkZ7xLsbFucmKudVFqUnlpcrOYZH.wfFGLr4hjiqgaWjXf0c7EtAbJDg12D4j1dbENBOs0rQzIKI72T8_Kz1eIdnUNsi1MTi5IzADEJJlw-&GI_ID=

Wilkinsons are official RFL photographers and have 3 guys at the big games with one of them specifically looking for "arty" type photos for use by the RFL in future ad campaigns, even i had taken that photo no one would ever have bought it so whats the point.

 

Wilkinsons thmselves are partly responsible for other guys struggling to make a living, a few years ago during the 4 nations over here with Aus and Nz wilkinsons got the blessing of RFL themselves to gve away every image they took free of charge, Wilkinsons were happy, the RFL paid them, the papers were happy, they got every single image they printed free, guess who were the only ones to lose out

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The game needs more media involvment. The biggest whinge everywhere is the lack of media involvement with RL.

 

200 accredited photographers is about 14 per game, for your average run of the mill game there are about 3 to the ones I go to, so it seems to me that photographers a checking they accredited so that they can ensure they are able to do the big games. Most of those two hundred probably only look to do the prestige games.

Christ, what run of the mill games do you go to, i regularly attended run of the mill games with 12 photographers there, i can only assume youre talking Championship and below, get yourself to Warrington, they have a posse of 5 who go to every single home or away game, i honestly dont think ive been to a game where there has been less than 8 in attendance

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They can sell for editorial I understand, I could be wrong but London Bronquins have photos on stock sites and others do but are rarer.

 

As for the numbers at Wigan I have rarely noticed more than 4/5 at the DW.

 

I'm not having a go at the guys pitch-side. I'm having a go at the RFL for failing to acknowledge that photography is no different to other digital outlets and changing fast. If the rule is no cameras on the terraces and in the stands then ban mobile phones from being brought into the ground. The photographers pitch-side just have to realise that they are going to be challenged on the technology front, if they want to be earning from it run of the mill try shots may not be what is needed.

Again Padge, your figures are way way out, even Shrek is being conservative, i can name you 10 who attend every single Wigan game without exception

 

If the Broncos have images on stock sites they are breaking the terms and conditions and are looking for trouble, however, no one cares so they get away with it

 

Unfortunatly run of the mill try shots and the usual celebration and action shot is what they want so its what they are given

 

I really dont see where you are coming from with the guy in the stand challenging the guy pitchside, the guy in the stand simply cant sell him images anywhere to anyone and even if he did the RFL would jump all over the club and the paper who prints it, im not saying it doesnt happen or wont happen again but the RFL will and do stamp on it.

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Wilkinsons are official RFL photographers and have 3 guys at the big games with one of them specifically looking for "arty" type photos for use by the RFL in future ad campaigns, even i had taken that photo no one would ever have bought it so whats the point.

 

Wilkinsons thmselves are partly responsible for other guys struggling to make a living, a few years ago during the 4 nations over here with Aus and Nz wilkinsons got the blessing of RFL themselves to gve away every image they took free of charge, Wilkinsons were happy, the RFL paid them, the papers were happy, they got every single image they printed free, guess who were the only ones to lose out

 

It wasn't as an example of the business but an example of the different angle to the photography that being in a privileged spot can help you get.

 

Publishing, both music and written have had to cope with the technological onslaught, photography is no different. Trying to protect yourself from the digital world with ideas of protectionism from the 1950's is futile.

 

I showed you on here the pointlessness of a digital watermark.

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It wasn't as an example of the business but an example of the different angle to the photography that being in a privileged spot can help you get.

 

Publishing, both music and written have had to cope with the technological onslaught, photography is no different. Trying to protect yourself from the digital world with ideas of protectionism from the 1950's is futile.

 

I showed you on here the pointlessness of a digital watermark.

Seriuosly, WTF are you babbling on about with the 1950's ######

 

All you did with regard to you showing me the pointlessness of watermarking an image was to show everyone you were a pratt, i dont make the rules and regulations regarding watermarking, all im asked to do is abide by them, if i gave a ###### about my images being hijacked by someone on face book would i have put some high res images in the photography thread.

 

We all get it, youre a rebel and dont live by the rules, a big hurrah to you, just because you can do something doesn't make it right or mean you have to do it, unless of course youre thinking of jumping off the Humber Bridge.

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Seriuosly, WTF are you babbling on about with the 1950's ######

 

All you did with regard to you showing me the pointlessness of watermarking an image was to show everyone you were a pratt, i dont make the rules and regulations regarding watermarking, all im asked to do is abide by them, if i gave a ###### about my images being hijacked by someone on face book would i have put some high res images in the photography thread.

 

We all get it, youre a rebel and dont live by the rules, a big hurrah to you, just because you can do something doesn't make it right or mean you have to do it, unless of course youre thinking of jumping off the Humber Bridge.

 

Get over yourself.

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I know these daft regulations exist.

 

So why don't they enforce the rules, I see loads of people all the time taking photos with mobiles and never see a jobsworth asking them to stop. 

 

Its like having a regulation that says do not boo the opposition.

Never mind enforce the rules, how many clubs actively encourage people to break them!  Twitter and Instagram of full of requests from clubs for fans to send in photos with specific hash tags!

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Seriuosly, WTF are you babbling on about with the 1950's ######

 

All you did with regard to you showing me the pointlessness of watermarking an image was to show everyone you were a pratt, i dont make the rules and regulations regarding watermarking, all im asked to do is abide by them, if i gave a ###### about my images being hijacked by someone on face book would i have put some high res images in the photography thread.

 

We all get it, youre a rebel and dont live by the rules, a big hurrah to you, just because you can do something doesn't make it right or mean you have to do it, unless of course youre thinking of jumping off the Humber Bridge.

 

 

jumping off the Humber Bridge.

 

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo! Don't do it! Think of the traffic congestion as they'll have  to close the bridge!!   :O............................ :biggrin:

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I thought this thread would have been short and quiet - how wrong could I be!

 

Here is what happened to me - A simple quest to buy a present;

 

My sons girlfriend is mad keen on Tom Brisco, so I thought I would buy a high quality image of him, get him to sign it and frame it for a Christmas present.

 

I already knew about Gary's web site and profession so I contacted him first - just wanted to buy a photo from him - not allowed!!

 

Looked at Rhinos shop - no good.

Looked on Hull website - no good.

 

Google images - quite a few and some good - but always traced back to Getty Images - and here you hit the wall.

 

Getty assume anyone wanting an image is a business, and you cannot buy it - you "rent" it for a daily fortune!!

 

After a few days searching I stumbled on the Hull Daily Mail website - they sell hi-res pics and at last I found what I wanted - a mere £16 for a corker of a shot.

Getting Tom to sign was the easy bit.

 

But what a load of pratting around for something so simple - and did he get any royalty from that sale to me?

No idea - and neither did he!

 

I can see both sides of this, totally understand why the RFL brought rules in - and for Gary not to be able to sell his own images seems wrong to me.

 

I have equipment capable of producing shots to a professional standard - but the best ones will always be the unobstructed view - as those of Tommy Makinson's tries prove.

 

I have "got away with" taking my gear into championship clubs and grabbing some shots - but don't do it often. It's not worth the hassle.

 

What is beyond doubt - the whole issue needs looking at, camera manufacturers are rapidly packing more and more quality into smaller discreet bodies, the rules need to change and enforcement needs to be possible (phones) and consistent...

 

But I won't be holding my breath!

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What is beyond doubt - the whole issue needs looking at, camera manufacturers are rapidly packing more and more quality into smaller discreet bodies, the rules need to change and enforcement needs to be possible (phones) and consistent...

 

But I won't be holding my breath!

Google glasses spring to mind, especailly if as I presume they will be tailored towards people who actually wear perscription glasses, can hardly expect people to take them off and leave them at the turnstyles! 

 

My good lady bought a football picture from Getty, had to do a bit of leg work by phone and e-mail, but with the clubs consent sent to getty by e-mail she was able to buy it, I guess its pot luck on who you end up dealing with. 

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Getty are the biggest crooks going, thay are NOT allowed by the RFL to sell prints just like anyone else but they just dont care, they see themselves as untouchable and flout every single regulation going.

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