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ELBOWSEYE

Dr K rips into Mcmanus

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I read 900 million quid or more, so he isn't skint. Dunno about the others.

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Club owners who don't want to offer others the opportunity for reaching a higher level of investment, ambition and competition with others in the marketplace..

Perhaps,  just perhaps it wasn't the right decision.

 

 

Are these others in the long line of investors desperate to buy their clubs, or do you really mean just one man?

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Well it's not an unrelated issue, because where are you going to get the money from in the first place to buy these marquee players. You have to start somewhere. Like Dave said, it's very easy to spend other people's money in writing. Personally I don't think the marquee rule would fix any of these problems.

Doesn't have to fix the problem, it has to contribute to fixing the problem. And if there is no cash a club doesn't have to go down the route.

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im not saying its right or wrong, id be very happy if wecwere able to sign superstars like Burgess instead of Union, but then I dont have to dip my hand in my pocket to fund it.

The voting rules are in place to stop individuals making bad decisions which harm the game, the decision must be respected.

 

DT - reading the stories, it seems McManus & others ? stopped a vote from actually taking place , and judging from comments made by both the Salford & Saints owners , it's got rather personal .

I wouldn't trust RL or the SL chariman to run a Spar Shop.. that much for respect .

 

All clubs decisions are dominated by their own self interests - Koukash is just that much brasher & obvious about it .

 

Much as I understand the ire generated by a Newbie millionaire coming in and shouting his mouth off about how things should be done , I also would resent an incumbant Chairman acting like Gandalf ' Non shall pass!'

I get the impression some of the more wealthy - Wigan - Leeds - Wire - Hull - Hudds are acting like the Stanleys in the Battle of Bosworth ... hanging back while they decide which side it would be more advantageous to support.

An Inglis !  An Inglis a kingdom for my Inglis !...

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So eight clubs for your superleague? (BTW Bob, too late it's already been done). You've successfully isolated 29 clubs and condemned them to a steady decline to nothing with that post.

 

Your wrong on the list with Salford, they don't have resources to be a Superleague club only a rich man to pay for empty seats and buy the players they cannot produce. If Rich men make viable SL clubs then you should add in Widnes, HKR, and Fartown at least. Bradford have a rich man now too.

 

On the subject of contraction where a Superleague clubs competes well and starts to produce players and attracts fans that is actually expansion. Look how far Wigan attract players and fans from? That's expansion.

 

The loss of Bramley and Hunslet to Leeds would not be contraction - that's pins in maps, the success of Leeds against the decline of their neighbours has seen the game stronger in the region.Take the Calder region where there's three clubs. less people are watching, less are playing, now that's contraction.

 

Koucash's defeat was a victory for realism, but beware championing it Bob.

It is a limited claim, but I am probably your biggest fan on here.

 

Sports clubs have three sets of customers: sponsors (public and private), fans, and rich men looking looking for play things.  If a club as a large source of income from these they should be in.  Toulouse and Cats would have a large income from commune and private sponsorship, while Salford have a large income from being a rich man's play thing.  As for rich men making it viable for Hull KR, that is true, but it does make Hull FC less viable.

 

Widnes and Huddersfield were on my mind with the two extra.  My thoughts on Wakefield, Cas and Fev are close to yours.

 

However, what we are looking for is a flagship competition of viable clubs ready to seize a modest market niche and live within their means.  There are two other ideals.

 

One (which I have drifted away from) is to maximise the size of the competition.  We might see two non-viable clubs with crowds of 7000 being replaced by a viable one with 10,000 as making things more viabe, more people would just see it as 4,000 fans lost and they have a strong point.

 

The second vision is that the entire game should be run for the benefit of their local club because they have served their time.  That vision is nonsense and deserves no respect.

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Are these others in the long line of investors desperate to buy their clubs, or do you really mean just one man?

One man or forty, if he is right then he's right. And frankly he's right.

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One man or forty, if he is right then he's right. And frankly he's right.

 

He is right in so much it serves his own ends.

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If Koukash knows so much, how come his mega-expensive team is nearer relegation than it is to the playoffs and plays to crowds about the size of that at Featherstone?

 

 

Thats easy to answer.    BRIAN NOBLE   - Biggest mistake Marwan made - Brians days are gone as a coach.  No more 5 Drives and an Up & Under for Salford.

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Really? How greater is Koucash's wealth than: Davy, Caddick, Leneghan, McManus, Moran?

 

 

£600 million but his horses are having a bad season so maybe £580 million now.   ;)  - I dont think the others are in his League but would stand to be corrected.   All self made by the way so he knows how to run businesses.

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PARKY WROTE

 

Your wrong on the list with Salford, they don't have resources to be a Superleague club only a rich man to pay for empty seats and buy the players they cannot produce.


Koucash's defeat was a victory for realism, but beware championing it Bob.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Well what rot Parky.  If RL is to be sustainable long term then Salford has to work - there are 1 million NEW fans there.

 

Check out the number of Salford kids about currently doing well @ Salford, Warrington, Leeds etc - Koukash is investing thousands in the Youth set up superbly organised by Alan Hunte.

 

Dont facts get in the way of your thinking please.

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This is just Dr morecash spitting his dummy again and having a tantrum because he didn't get the vote to go his way.

 

McManus (and several of the other chairman) have said that they're not opposed to having a marquee player in the future, now isn't the right time for it as there's too many other more pressing issues in the game to sort out. All a marquee player rule will do is see large amounts of money disappear into the pocket of a few individual players (and their agents) instead of it being invested in other parts of the game.

 

McManus has said he wants to see all clubs spending the full cap, all clubs at least breaking even each year, all clubs investing heavily in their youth teams and having them be top rated by the RFL, He also wants to see the reintroduction of an U21's / U23's competition and greater exemptions from the cap for 'home grown' players.

When some of these things have been achieved then he says he will consider voting for the marquee player suggestion.

 

Morecash just wants a quick fix instead of working hard to achieve results

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He is right in so much it serves his own ends.

And other club owners don't serve their own ends?

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This is just Dr morecash spitting his dummy again and having a tantrum because he didn't get the vote to go his way.

 

McManus (and several of the other chairman) have said that they're not opposed to having a marquee player in the future, now isn't the right time for it as there's too many other more pressing issues in the game to sort out. All a marquee player rule will do is see large amounts of money disappear into the pocket of a few individual players (and their agents) instead of it being invested in other parts of the game.

 

McManus has said he wants to see all clubs spending the full cap, all clubs at least breaking even each year, all clubs investing heavily in their youth teams and having them be top rated by the RFL, He also wants to see the reintroduction of an U21's / U23's competition and greater exemptions from the cap for 'home grown' players.

When some of these things have been achieved then he says he will consider voting for the marquee player suggestion.

 

Morecash just wants a quick fix instead of working hard to achieve results

This is the same chairman who bailed saints out for years in the old ground when they spent big on marquee players from all over to gain success, yet now he gets these morals from the position of having a new stadium that will help the club self finance.

He can give the good doctor tips on how to breach the cap as well?

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I think Koukash has made some good points which have been undermined by the dramatics he seems to enjoy.

 

The RFL seems to be an inward looking company, we need to broaden the board and attract the best business brains we can. We will not grow the sport without new blood and here is where Koukash could be a positive force but needs to temper his outbursts.

 

A marque player could be a huge benefit in selling the game but there needs to be some safe guards to stop abuse of process. Maybe some sort of scheme where the amount exempted has to be equalled in an academy which should grow the local game.

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we should let the clubs decide. They did so.

Fans are great at insisting owners spend loads of money, but then moan if tickets cost more than a tenner.

I trust that if the vote didnt go through then it was the right decision, surely voting rules are in place to stop individuals having too much say.

So you think those paying the wages should just be left to work together to enforce lower wages for those earning them?

Would you be happy if your employer cut your wages then worked with their competitors so that if you wanted to earn your worth you had to change profession. 

 

Doesnt seem fair to me and besides, we will only thrive when we are run by good businessmen, not subsidised by the players. 

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So eight clubs for your superleague? (BTW Bob, too late it's already been done). You've successfully isolated 29 clubs and condemned them to a steady decline to nothing with that post.

Your wrong on the list with Salford, they don't have resources to be a Superleague club only a rich man to pay for empty seats and buy the players they cannot produce. If Rich men make viable SL clubs then you should add in Widnes, HKR, and Fartown at least. Bradford have a rich man now too.

On the subject of contraction where a Superleague clubs competes well and starts to produce players and attracts fans that is actually expansion. Look how far Wigan attract players and fans from? That's expansion.

The loss of Bramley and Hunslet to Leeds would not be contraction - that's pins in maps, the success of Leeds against the decline of their neighbours has seen the game stronger in the region.Take the Calder region where there's three clubs. less people are watching, less are playing, now that's contraction.

Koucash's defeat was a victory for realism, but beware championing it Bob.

so... who claimed crowds have gone up. Prove you're not a troll. Should beveasy, lets see if you do it.

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So you think those paying the wages should just be left to work together to enforce lower wages for those earning them?

Would you be happy if your employer cut your wages then worked with their competitors so that if you wanted to earn your worth you had to change profession. 

 

Doesnt seem fair to me and besides, we will only thrive when we are run by good businessmen, not subsidised by the players. 

 

Not sure what your saying here? Should wages outstrip the clubs business incomes?

 

Those players are paid as much as the clubs can afford and more given the deficits they run up.

 

Which employers will go into debt to make sure their employees are paid as much as possible??

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The RFL seems to be an inward looking company, we need to broaden the board and attract the best business brains we can. We will not grow the sport without new blood and here is where Koukash could be a positive force but needs to temper his outbursts.

 

What's good business about wanting to spend £Millions of his personal money on wage inflation and overpaying players for what return? Who are these marquee players that will earn twice as much as the other lads on the pitch and attract thousands to go watch them?

 

I remember Wally Lewis putting a few thousand on the gates, so it can work to a point but is that a point at which the return is greater than the massive salary to get the star?

 

Who are we thinking of getting to Salford, how much for and how many to turn out to watch him and will he come??

 

Good business is taking the income the game makes and spending and investing it in the right places, but this can never happen as long as £Millions of that income is used to shore up deficits at stagnant clubs in poor grounds with low crowds. The only business RFL/SL do is an annual sky money share out. 

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McManus has said he wants to see all clubs spending the full cap, all clubs at least breaking even each year, all clubs investing heavily in their youth teams and having them be top rated by the RFL, He also wants to see the reintroduction of an U21's / U23's competition and greater exemptions from the cap for 'home grown' players.

When some of these things have been achieved then he says he will consider voting for the marquee player suggestion.

 

But what will he do to help his fellow SL clubs achieve this? Preside over a Superleague in which it is clear half the clubs in the league are stagnant and act as nurseries for the big clubs??

 

The rest of the speech will be about how everyone else need to aspire to his achievements "we have done it at Saints, other clubs must follow us" ?? He runs a club in a league that is now set up such that the big clubs will maintain their position pretty much forever more, more so now those at the bottom end of SL will get sent to play the second tier.

 

Far from affording Marquee players the Wakey's, Cas's and Widnes's and HKR's can barely afford who they have got now.

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Not sure what your saying here? Should wages outstrip the clubs business incomes?

 

Those players are paid as much as the clubs can afford and more given the deficits they run up.

 

Which employers will go into debt to make sure their employees are paid as much as possible??

If those players are paid as much as the can afford we have no need for the SC by sheer coincidence it seems many different businesses with different incomes and outgoings can all afford exactly the same amount and the salary cap is an irrelevance.  

 

If all clubs were paying what they can afford then should we scrap the cap then salaries wouldnt go up because clubs couldnt afford them to. As you say, What kind of business would g o into debt to ensure their employees are paid as much as possible?

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Saints ran at massive losses for years. building crowds and winning things withh big name players on big wages, they broke the SC numerous times and sit from a position of having done this. The call from McManus that clubs should have to jump through hoops before taking the route Saints did is hypocrisy of the highest degree. 

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The call from McManus that clubs should have to jump through hoops before taking the route Saints did is hypocrisy of the highest degree.

There is no doubt that McManus has saved the Saints club but I entirely agree with your statement and similarly with Red Willow earlier in the thread.

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And other club owners don't serve their own ends?

 

Absolutely. But in this instance McManus is looking beyond his own club and is putting the onus on the infrastructure of SL. As he stated, it was only a couple of years ago, that, with the exception of Saints and Warrington, SL Chairmen chose to scrap the U18s and U20s competition to save money.

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Absolutely. But in this instance McManus is looking beyond his own club and is putting the onus on the infrastructure of SL. As he stated, it was only a couple of years ago, that, with the exception of Saints and Warrington, SL Chairmen chose to scrap the U18s and U20s competition to save money.

 

Some chose to scrap it to save money, others invested in a different pathway.

 

Leeds for instance have worked not only with Hunslet but with junior clubs throughout the city to bring in a far better pathway than we had under the U18s and u20s. 

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If those players are paid as much as the can afford we have no need for the SC by sheer coincidence it seems many different businesses with different incomes and outgoings can all afford exactly the same amount and the salary cap is an irrelevance.  

 

Not sure of your point. Clubs have to find the £1.8M cap first to compete.

 

For some that's just about it, for others their businesses have a lot more money available for junior development, marketing, transfer fees and investment.

 

The salary cap is in place to stop Koukash buying the top 25 SL players and attracting all the top juniors.

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