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Rugby League's popularity riding high (Merged threads)

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this all looks great however SL crowds seem dire this year

 

They are disappointing and the new system will do nothing to inspire fans to buy a season ticket. If I were a Wakefield or Hull KR fan what would convince me to get a season ticket - over waiting and seeing - when I don't even have a full fixture list to look at during the start of the season? If I wait and see, you could well see me picking my games and attending just 3-4 home matches instead of a guaranteed 12-13. And I can't blame them. Uncertainty breeds hesitancy.

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Below follows a table of average attendances 2013 and 2014

for each of the 14 individual Super League clubs (unnamed)

followed by the calculated figure over all 14 clubs

and also over all 14 (rather than individual clubs) the percentage difference 2013 to 2014.

 

The individual Super League club figures listed were are given (with each club named)

in a recent posting on our Totalrl.com news-stream page (see link below)

 

http://www.totalrl.com/rugby-league-crowds-investigate/

 

COMPARISON   -   SUPER LEAGUE CLUB ATTENDANCES    2013  /  2014

 

 

Average attendance 2013 to 2014 comparison.pdf

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At last, I managed to find the way to put a table of figures out to forum members.

 

Attach it!

 

It's always easy when you know .............

 

:-)

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For

 

COMPARISON - SUPER LEAGUE CLUB ATTENDANCES 2013 / 2014

 

see attached file (if I can get the damned thing to attach!)

 

Nope!  (it is always easy when you know how - and I don't)

 

But OK .............

 

So if at first you don't succeed .................

 

The bottom 3 lines of the table read:

 

Total attendance overall 14 clubs therefore:  2013  =  118.616

                                                                       2014  = 103,189

 

Difference over all 14 clubs 2013 to 2014 therefore:    - 15,427

        
Average over all 14 clubs for 2014  therefore:    13% down on 2013

 

 

Bearing in mind, however, that these are just numbers and, in many possible ways, just the numbers doesn't always paint a full picture.

 

:bye:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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:blush:

:blush:

:blush:

 

Except it did work - the first time didn't it!

 

Sorry folks ..........

 

it just took an awful long time to upload and I'm not used to that because i don't normal upload anything.

 

:-)

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Totally agree with Lord Charles the RFL is all about spin from the senior figures in the game. The truth never gets in the way of self preservation when Nigel Wood speaks.

The game is a business that is being run by people who are out of their depth. Our competitors Rugby Union and the NRL have made massive strides in the last ten to fifteen years. Why? very simple ....... professional leadership.

We are going nowhere with Barwick, Wood and Rimmer. By the way what exactly does Brian Barwick doing on a daily basis?

Professional leadership maybe, maybe not. It really depends on the quality of who you are leading. Lions led by donkeys has the same outcome as donkeys led by lions.

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Could someone answer this questions if adult /youth  participation is up why are there are record number of games cancelled each week ?

 

Or is the increased participation in Touch rugby ?

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Just a thought. RLIF looks after the international game? The RFL looks after the national game?

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I'm sure Nigel is right with his statement about the numbers watching the game.  When you add all the number together, spectators + tv viewing figures, it is the tv figures that are going to dictate what the answer will be and with a series of world cup matches on terrestial tv last year this will mean that overall figures are higher. 

 

That can all be true at the same time that Super League attendances have fallen.  Nigel Wood has done exactly what a lot of business leaders do when presenting their results and emphasising the positive.  To be completely scientific about it he should split the numbers out, so we can compare like-for-like.

 

On one hand, you could say all the things that have gone well recently with sponsorship for Super League, the Championship and the Challenge Cup as well as the £200 million Sky deal and a succesfull world cup are all things under the RFL's control.  If SL attendances have been lower is that more an issue for the directors of the individual clubs?

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I really do despair. After nearly 60 years as a supporter of this game, I have seen the game save itself from the brink of disaster several times. It seems to me there are still fans who think it will all end in tears and who lose no opportunity to express that view.

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I really do despair. After nearly 60 years as a supporter of this game, I have seen the game save itself from the brink of disaster several times. It seems to me there are still fans who think it will all end in tears and who lose no opportunity to express that view.

 

 

You are right but for the best part of those 60 years we didn't have the internet and forums. All we had was the letters page of the Rugby Leaguer on which a much smaller number made the same claims - we're dooned I tell you!

 

For those who don't remember that far back Bill Fallowfield wasn't exactly everyone's cup of tea either. I can just imagine the internet storm that would emerge if Nigel wood suggested that we should merge with RU!

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I really do despair. After nearly 60 years as a supporter of this game, I have seen the game save itself from the brink of disaster several times. It seems to me there are still fans who think it will all end in tears and who lose no opportunity to express that view.

 

Yes but have you seen the game stick with anything for 10 years?

 

In my time watching RL (which is only from the early-mid 80s) I have seen:

 

Two divisions of 16 with 4 up and 4 down

One division of 14 and one of 20 (where not everyone played each other twice) with 2/3 up and 2/3 down

A 14-8-14 structure (remember that great idea from Mr Hetherington??) with the middle division playing each other 4 times :fie: with 2 up and 2 down

Then 12 in the SL with 12 and 10/11 (Div 3) with a one-up and one down

Then back to 14 clubs in the SL with no relegation (the Huddersfield and merger years)

Then back to 12 clubs with half of them playing each other 3 times with 1 up and one down

Then back to 14 clubs with places awarded on licensing

Then onto a 12-12-14 going into 3x8s - with a different play-off system for each division

 

A salary cap where you could only spend 50% of your income

Now a salary cap where you can spend nearly £2m or £1m (Championship) even if you will go bust.

 

Lets not get started on the play-offs. I wonder how strong the game could have been had it stuck to a system for a concerted period of time? It is not the naysayers destroying the game it is the game's irresistible temptation to keep tinkering things and thinking this will be the one.

 

A couple of years ago Saints moved into a brand new stadium, Hull KR were building a brand new stand complex, Wakefield were desperately trying to move to a new stadium and Featherstone were buying stands to upgrade their ground. This is because the game thought it was important that the whole club built towards a sustainable future. We now have a system where London and Wakefield can play SL in 5k capacity stadiums and a club like Dewsbury on an annual turnover over 450k can spend a £1m on the salary cap to try and get promoted via the Super 8s - with no-one policing them.

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I suspect that RL is around the 1 million mark.

Is say it's far far less than that......maybe 330,000. Sponsorship is a good indicator as to the value of a sport and SL seems bereft of any who pay up front at present. 200k watching on Sky are regulars but the million or so watching BBC coverage of CC are sports fans......Pay TV is where you get your real fans.......and it's the same people tunin in each week.

If you allow for no away fans then there are about 110,000 active attendees each week at the top level......to claim 10 times that as regular RL fans is insane......where were these fans during th rlwc?

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Yes but have you seen the game stick with anything for 10 years?

 

In my time watching RL (which is only from the early-mid 80s) I have seen:

 

Two divisions of 16 with 4 up and 4 down

One division of 14 and one of 20 (where not everyone played each other twice) with 2/3 up and 2/3 down

A 14-8-14 structure (remember that great idea from Mr Hetherington??) with the middle division playing each other 4 times :fie: with 2 up and 2 down

Then 12 in the SL with 12 and 10/11 (Div 3) with a one-up and one down

Then back to 14 clubs in the SL with no relegation (the Huddersfield and merger years)

Then back to 12 clubs with half of them playing each other 3 times with 1 up and one down

Then back to 14 clubs with places awarded on licensing

Then onto a 12-12-14 going into 3x8s - with a different play-off system for each division

 

A salary cap where you could only spend 50% of your income

Now a salary cap where you can spend nearly £2m or £1m (Championship) even if you will go bust.

 

Lets not get started on the play-offs. I wonder how strong the game could have been had it stuck to a system for a concerted period of time? It is not the naysayers destroying the game it is the game's irresistible temptation to keep tinkering things and thinking this will be the one.

 

A couple of years ago Saints moved into a brand new stadium, Hull KR were building a brand new stand complex, Wakefield were desperately trying to move to a new stadium and Featherstone were buying stands to upgrade their ground. This is because the game thought it was important that the whole club built towards a sustainable future. We now have a system where London and Wakefield can play SL in 5k capacity stadiums and a club like Dewsbury on an annual turnover over 450k can spend a £1m on the salary cap to try and get promoted via the Super 8s - with no-one policing them.

I agree with all of that and don't like the proposed system, either. I long for stability in structure. ..maybe one day, maybe. As for the naysayers, long may they say nay....so we can do the opposite

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Is say it's far far less than that......maybe 330,000. Sponsorship is a good indicator as to the value of a sport and SL seems bereft of any who pay up front at present. 200k watching on Sky are regulars but the million or so watching BBC coverage of CC are sports fans......Pay TV is where you get your real fans.......and it's the same people tunin in each week.

If you allow for no away fans then there are about 110,000 active attendees each week at the top level......to claim 10 times that as regular RL fans is insane......where were these fans during th rlwc?

 

I'm not convinced its the same 200k that are watching each week. A good majority of fans don't tend to watch neutral games with any great frequency. 

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Yes but have you seen the game stick with anything for 10 years?

 

In my time watching RL (which is only from the early-mid 80s) I have seen:

 

Two divisions of 16 with 4 up and 4 down

One division of 14 and one of 20 (where not everyone played each other twice) with 2/3 up and 2/3 down

A 14-8-14 structure (remember that great idea from Mr Hetherington??) with the middle division playing each other 4 times :fie: with 2 up and 2 down

Then 12 in the SL with 12 and 10/11 (Div 3) with a one-up and one down

Then back to 14 clubs in the SL with no relegation (the Huddersfield and merger years)

Then back to 12 clubs with half of them playing each other 3 times with 1 up and one down

Then back to 14 clubs with places awarded on licensing

Then onto a 12-12-14 going into 3x8s - with a different play-off system for each division

 

A salary cap where you could only spend 50% of your income

Now a salary cap where you can spend nearly £2m or £1m (Championship) even if you will go bust.

 

Lets not get started on the play-offs. I wonder how strong the game could have been had it stuck to a system for a concerted period of time? It is not the naysayers destroying the game it is the game's irresistible temptation to keep tinkering things and thinking this will be the one.

 

A couple of years ago Saints moved into a brand new stadium, Hull KR were building a brand new stand complex, Wakefield were desperately trying to move to a new stadium and Featherstone were buying stands to upgrade their ground. This is because the game thought it was important that the whole club built towards a sustainable future. We now have a system where London and Wakefield can play SL in 5k capacity stadiums and a club like Dewsbury on an annual turnover over 450k can spend a £1m on the salary cap to try and get promoted via the Super 8s - with no-one policing them.

TBH I think the stability point is somewhat overstated.

 

There does seem to be a view that all will be good in the world of RL if we just stuck with something, yet we see other sports making changes all the time. Most sports have made tweaks to their structure during the past 10 years with different results.

 

Rugby Union has made loads of changes:

English National League restructures

Welsh restructure

Scottish restructure

Celtic League restructure

Salary caps introduced

English restructure of Cup comps

Launch and subsequent restructure of playoffs

'Gimmicks' like the Zurich Wildcard

European Cup restructure

 

There have also been plenty of changes over in the NRL over the years, but because the NRL is deemed succesful this isn't raised as an issue.

 

Change needn't be seen as a bad thing, the quality of the decisions and how they are implemented is far more important. I think it is too easy to say we have struggled because of change, I don't think that is the case at all. We usually make a change because something is struggling.

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TBH I think the stability point is somewhat overstated.

 

There does seem to be a view that all will be good in the world of RL if we just stuck with something, yet we see other sports making changes all the time. Most sports have made tweaks to their structure during the past 10 years with different results.

 

Rugby Union has made loads of changes:

English National League restructures

Welsh restructure

Scottish restructure

Celtic League restructure

Salary caps introduced

English restructure of Cup comps

Launch and subsequent restructure of playoffs

'Gimmicks' like the Zurich Wildcard

European Cup restructure

 

There have also been plenty of changes over in the NRL over the years, but because the NRL is deemed succesful this isn't raised as an issue.

 

Change needn't be seen as a bad thing, the quality of the decisions and how they are implemented is far more important. I think it is too easy to say we have struggled because of change, I don't think that is the case at all. We usually make a change because something is struggling.

 

Interesting point and maybe some merit in that. However, I can't really stomach a change where it now doesn't matter if you play in SL in a run down 5k stadium or are a part-time club allowed to spend more than twice your turnover in a salary cap (un-policed). It's like we have respected few of the good things which came out of the last 5 years.

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Interesting point and maybe some merit in that. However, I can't really stomach a change where it now doesn't matter if you play in SL in a run down 5k stadium or are a part-time club allowed to spend more than twice your turnover in a salary cap (un-policed). It's like we have respected few of the good things which came out of the last 5 years.

So Einstein how would Dewsbury spend money they don't have at the end of every month on wages?

I am yet to meet a player who asks for his salary to be paid annually in arrears

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So Einstein how would Dewsbury spend money they don't have at the end of every month on wages?

I am yet to meet a player who asks for his salary to be paid annually in arrears

 

How do you think clubs go bust? Overdrafts, deferring bills, not paying VAT/HMRC, Loans, 90-day credit with suppliers, Director's loans, advance on TV money and sponsorships, season ticket money up front et al.

 

I think Bradford, Widnes, Crusaders, London, Wakefield, Halifax and plenty more will tell you how it has been successfully done. It's only when the HMRC started the winding up orders that the full extent came out for some clubs. Then the monthly wage bill comes around and you can't pay it.

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I'm not convinced its the same 200k that are watching each week. A good majority of fans don't tend to watch neutral games with any great frequency. 

 

Maybe, but I'd say at least 50% of the TV audience SKY get are the same people......maybe even 75%. I watch every game of League going.......did the same in the UK too........there is not a snowballs chance in hell that there are 1,000,000 RL fans in England......if there were, then the RFL would be filling Wembley with the frequency that the other lot fill Twickenham, with no double headers and charging more than a fiver a game.

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Rugby Union has made loads of changes:

English National League restructures

Welsh restructure

Scottish restructure

Celtic League restructure

Salary caps introduced

English restructure of Cup comps

Launch and subsequent restructure of playoffs

'Gimmicks' like the Zurich Wildcard

European Cup restructure

 

Once they started paying "all" their players, they needed to worry about things like attendances, sponsorship etc etc....they tweak where there are issues (Wales/Scotland/Ireland RFU's all turn over more than the RFL individually BTW) and they are having to learn about "professionalism" the hard way. Before they went openly professional, their English cup comp was the #1 thing......now the Aviva Division and a fully blown European comp is the King.....what I'd give to see the RFL have 10% of the ability or commitment to the game's growth.

 

Their adjustments could be considered "growing pains".....the RFL yet again messing with the system is more akin to adjusting ones truss.

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Interesting point and maybe some merit in that. However, I can't really stomach a change where it now doesn't matter if you play in SL in a run down 5k stadium or are a part-time club allowed to spend more than twice your turnover in a salary cap (un-policed). It's like we have respected few of the good things which came out of the last 5 years.

im a supporter of the salary cap and liked the 50% ruling, so you wont get me disagreeing with that.

Not saying all the changes have been good, I just dont believe making changes is the main issue. The lack of effective plan to deliver some of the changes is the issue imho.

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Once they started paying "all" their players, they needed to worry about things like attendances, sponsorship etc etc....they tweak where there are issues (Wales/Scotland/Ireland RFU's all turn over more than the RFL individually BTW) and they are having to learn about "professionalism" the hard way. Before they went openly professional, their English cup comp was the #1 thing......now the Aviva Division and a fully blown European comp is the King.....what I'd give to see the RFL have 10% of the ability or commitment to the game's growth.

Their adjustments could be considered "growing pains".....the RFL yet again messing with the system is more akin to adjusting ones truss.

we could do the same exercise with cricket

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im a supporter of the salary cap and liked the 50% ruling, so you wont get me disagreeing with that.

Not saying all the changes have been good, I just dont believe making changes is the main issue. The lack of effective plan to deliver some of the changes is the issue imho.

 

I have heard a whisper that they are looking to bring the 50% (turnover) cap back into SL. Really hope so. Apparently all but 3 of the current SL clubs would still be able to pay the full cap. However, I would imagine barely a third of Championship clubs turnover anywhere near £1m - never mind £2m. Only one attendance in the Championship this week actually scraped over the 1,000 mark - that is not a recipe for increasing the current cap by 150%.

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Interesting point and maybe some merit in that. However, I can't really stomach a change where it now doesn't matter if you play in SL in a run down 5k stadium or are a part-time club allowed to spend more than twice your turnover in a salary cap (un-policed). It's like we have respected few of the good things which came out of the last 5 years.

Stability not stagnation, though. It seems as if a new idea does not bring instant benefits, it gets kicked out rather than refined. In my view licensing has not been given anywhere near enough time and no meaningful adjustments have been made to address any shortcomings. Any bets wit the new system, after a few years, it'll be all change.

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