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walter sobchak

Middle east violence

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I can't believe that there isn't a thread for the worlds current #1 news story, are people fatigued? Not interested? Done with the whole issue?

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I know it sounds horrible ... but I'm starting to not care.

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I know it sounds horrible ... but I'm starting to not care.

I can see where you're comming from but it affects us(UK) as we along with the US give the Israelis political cover.

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No, not uninterested, just a bit world weary.  1400 non-combatants have died in Gaza in this conflict.  Over 100,000 non-combatants have died in Syria in the last year or so.  Around the same in Iraq.  There is a bit of a genocidal concentration in Iraq on anyone who is Christian to the point that there are very few left and no-one else wants them so they can't run.  The UN have almost given up counting the dead in the African wars.  The native tribes in Central and Southern America are now almost without protection and the combination of loggers and cocaine growers are rapidly making them extinct.  All the while, the disastrous PR around the 2003 Iraq invasion and the Afghanistan deaths and expense have made the west, the US especially but with notable UK support, reduced to nothing more than old busy-bodies sitting at home waggling their fingers in impotent pointlessness.

 

The Gaza conflict is just the most PR-worthy in the minds of the western media because it's the Jews versus the Muslims, each with a very entrenched mindset and absolutely no common ground that they'll concede.  It's also a very convenient front-line now that Afghanistan is winding down, far better for the UK and US's narrow internal view for their frothy-mouthed nutjobs to be shipping themselves out to Gaza, Iraq and Syria than staying at home where they might cause problems at home.

 

I remain a thorough interventionist, regardless of cost.  If anyone needs convincing otherwise then here's a good book to read.

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No, not uninterested, just a bit world weary.  1400 non-combatants have died in Gaza in this conflict.  Over 100,000 non-combatants have died in Syria in the last year or so.  Around the same in Iraq.  There is a bit of a genocidal concentration in Iraq on anyone who is Christian to the point that there are very few left and no-one else wants them so they can't run.  The UN have almost given up counting the dead in the African wars.  The native tribes in Central and Southern America are now almost without protection and the combination of loggers and cocaine growers are rapidly making them extinct.  All the while, the disastrous PR around the 2003 Iraq invasion and the Afghanistan deaths and expense have made the west, the US especially but with notable UK support, reduced to nothing more than old busy-bodies sitting at home waggling their fingers in impotent pointlessness.

 

The Gaza conflict is just the most PR-worthy in the minds of the western media because it's the Jews versus the Muslims, each with a very entrenched mindset and absolutely no common ground that they'll concede.  It's also a very convenient front-line now that Afghanistan is winding down, far better for the UK and US's narrow internal view for their frothy-mouthed nutjobs to be shipping themselves out to Gaza, Iraq and Syria than staying at home where they might cause problems at home.

 

I remain a thorough interventionist, regardless of cost.  If anyone needs convincing otherwise then here's a good book to read.

I wouldn't view it as "Jews v Muslims" but Palestinians v zionists. Also I couldn't disagree more on being "interventionist", Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, etc have proved this in recent times and Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia etc if you want to go back a few decades.

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I wouldn't view it as "Jews v Muslims" but Palestinians v zionists. Also I couldn't disagree more on being "interventionist", Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, etc have proved this in recent times and Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia etc if you want to go back a few decades.

I'm not talking about political interventionism as in the Iraq invasion or others you mention, I'm talking about humanitarian intervention.  For example, a UN declaration that Palestine/Gaza is a discrete territory then a very heavily armed UN force policing the border.  For me, as a bit of fluffy-cloud thinking, this would be a perfect scenario for China to show they're serious about becoming part of the world's elite and stand up to their UN Security Council seat responsibilities, I doubt either side could count China as an ally or friend.

 

At danger of repeating myself here but that book I linked above shows the disasters when a genuine humanitarian intervention is allowed to get bogged down in politics.  It's a massively difficult book to read if you have any sort of soul but it is definitely worth the effort.  Millions of people have died in the last 20 years or so because we've stood back and said "none of our business".  Well, it bloody well should be our business.

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With the capture of an Israeli soldier by Hamas this can go either way, either Israel will become serious about a lasting ceasefire in gaza or they will lash out and inflict severe pain on the people of gaza not yet seen in the conflict as of yet.

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With the capture of an Israeli soldier by Hamas this can go either way, either Israel will become serious about a lasting ceasefire in gaza or they will lash out and inflict severe pain on the people of gaza not yet seen in the conflict as of yet.

Israel have pulled the pin from the grenade and have thrown it down the drains, they're not going to step back now unless the US cuts off their support cold-turkey.  And that's about as likely to happen as me becoming the next Prime Minister.

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I'm not talking about political interventionism as in the Iraq invasion or others you mention, I'm talking about humanitarian intervention.  For example, a UN declaration that Palestine/Gaza is a discrete territory then a very heavily armed UN force policing the border.  For me, as a bit of fluffy-cloud thinking, this would be a perfect scenario for China to show they're serious about becoming part of the world's elite and stand up to their UN Security Council seat responsibilities, I doubt either side could count China as an ally or friend.

 

At danger of repeating myself here but that book I linked above shows the disasters when a genuine humanitarian intervention is allowed to get bogged down in politics.  It's a massively difficult book to read if you have any sort of soul but it is definitely worth the effort.  Millions of people have died in the last 20 years or so because we've stood back and said "none of our business".  Well, it bloody well should be our business.

I would argue that far more people have died because we have said "this is our business" but I agree with you on getting more involved on the political, diplomatic and humanitarian side rather than the failed military intervention side.

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I can't believe that there isn't a thread for the worlds current #1 news story, are people fatigued? Not interested? Done with the whole issue?

It is argued by one-eyed people on both sides.  

 

It seems that the Israelis are motivated by fear and are feel pushed ot taking measures which make people impossible.  This view will b ewidely considered anti-Semitic.  The term anti-semitism varies in meaning from benign anti-Jewish to not accepting Jewish people as racially superior.

 

It seems the Palestinian side is led by people who have an interest in violence and will not benefit from peace.  This is might be considered anti-Arab.

 

It is a mess and I cannot find it in me to be righteous about it.

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Israel have pulled the pin from the grenade and have thrown it down the drains, they're not going to step back now unless the US cuts off their support cold-turkey.  And that's about as likely to happen as me becoming the next Prime Minister.

Agreed. The US condemned the Israeli bombings of schools and hospitals while at the same time arming them to the teeth with yet more arms. Both the republicans and democrats in the congress stand "shoulder to shoulder" with the Israelis as does the Israeli public, I fear this will go on for some time until Israel suffers a catastrophic event of either a large loss of civilian life or large loss of military life.

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It is argued by one-eyed people on both sides.  

 

It seems that the Israelis are motivated by fear and are feel pushed ot taking measures which make people impossible.  This view will b ewidely considered anti-Semitic.  The term anti-semitism varies in meaning from benign anti-Jewish to not accepting Jewish people as racially superior.

 

It seems the Palestinian side is led by people who have an interest in violence and will not benefit from peace.  This is might be considered anti-Arab.

 

It is a mess and I cannot find it in me to be righteous about it.

When you study the history and facts of this conflict it becomes all to clear, the conflict started after WW1 with the Balfour declaration and came to ahead when the state of Israel was created thus wiping Palestine off the map. All the violence from then to today has flowed since then and will continue until a just settlement has been reached for the Palestinians.

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When you study the history and facts of this conflict it becomes all to clear, the conflict started after WW1 with the Balfour declaration and came to ahead when the state of Israel was created thus wiping Palestine off the map. All the violence from then to today has flowed since then and will continue until a just settlement has been reached for the Palestinians.

Perhaps, but only a tiny number of the population were alive for the six-day war, let alone WW1.  The problems now are the problems that are being created now.

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The state of Israel now needs to be removed from the map, the Zionists have lost all moral and political legitimacy. The Palestinian people should have their land restored to pre-1948 boundaries. I used to think a two state solution was the best way forward, albeit extremely difficult to actually achieve, but no longer.

 

Of course, it won't happen and Israel will continue to operate as an 'apartheid' regime.

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Perhaps, but only a tiny number of the population were alive for the six-day war, let alone WW1.  The problems now are the problems that are being created now.

As a result of 1948. You have to go backwards before you can go forwards in this conflict or it will go on forever.

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The state of Israel now needs to be removed from the map, the Zionists have lost all moral and political legitimacy. The Palestinian people should have their land restored to pre-1948 boundaries. I used to think a two state solution was the best way forward, albeit extremely difficult to actually achieve, but no longer.

 

Of course, it won't happen and Israel will continue to operate as an 'apartheid' regime.

I couldn't agree more. The two state solution is dead and the only solution left is a one state solution, a democratic state where Jews, Muslims and Christians live side by side with 1 woman 1 man 1 vote, a bit like post apartheid south Africa.

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As a result of 1948. You have to go backwards before you can go forwards in this conflict or it will go on forever.

No, people have to stop going backwards.

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Every time you shop on the high street, you contribute to the Israeli murder machine.

 

Every time you fill up with petrol, you contribute to the Hamas murder machine.

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I couldn't agree more. The two state solution is dead and the only solution left is a one state solution, a democratic state where Jews, Muslims and Christians live side by side with 1 woman 1 man 1 vote, a bit like post apartheid south Africa.

 

in which case, all is lost. 

 

"Please sir, he hit me"

 

" only because he hit me first"

 

" no I didn't" 

 

"Yes you did"

 

Problem is, there is no "sir" able to sort it, no one with respect, means, authority, will, power, motivation etc etc"..certainly not America any more, nor the UN. 

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I couldn't agree more. The two state solution is dead and the only solution left is a one state solution, a democratic state where Jews, Muslims and Christians live side by side with 1 woman 1 man 1 vote, a bit like post apartheid south Africa.

 

That's not a solution, it's a fantasy.

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No, people have to stop going backwards.

Its because of the corrupt corporate medias refusal to look backwards that a large section of the British population and more importantly the US population don't understand the conflict and the facts on the ground and what all the fighting is about.

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That's not a solution, it's a fantasy.

It's more of a solution than the so called "two state solution." I'm sure there were people like you who said the same thing about whites and blacks living as equals in south Africa with a democratic vote.

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I think things are complicated by the wider Middle Eastern conflict now. Egypt opened the border with Gaza and the Sinai got overrun with Islamist militants as a thank you, that they still haven't defeated. Hence the border went back up.

 

Many Arab countries are unofficially sympathetic to Israel this time round due to not wanting Islamism to spread, very difficult one though as Israel are hardly going to let rockets hit them without responding but a conflict in Gaza comes at a high cost and risks replacing Hamas with worse groups.

 

One state solution is just an excuse to see Islamic militants massacring the Jewish population a few years down the line.

 

It would help if 3rd and 4th generation people born in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan weren't falsely labelled refugees. They're in many cases treated worse than actual Israeli Arabs who stayed put. After that a 2 state solution is my preference but a 3 state solution is looking more likely

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When you study the history and facts of this conflict it becomes all to clear, the conflict started after WW1 with the Balfour declaration and came to ahead when the state of Israel was created thus wiping Palestine off the map. All the violence from then to today has flowed since then and will continue until a just settlement has been reached for the Palestinians.

 

Can anyone explain how it all started, in the very beginning all those thousands of years ago? or point me in the right direction.  Was Israel originally Palestine and the Israeli tribe invaded, or was there just warring different tribes that 'evolved' into the Jews and Arabs?   Do the Jews  have an original homeland?  Any explanation much appreciated as it is hard going finding 'an idiots guide to the middle eastern conflict'.

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Can anyone explain how it all started, in the very beginning all those thousands of years ago? or point me in the right direction.  Was Israel originally Palestine and the Israeli tribe invaded, or was there just warring different tribes that 'evolved' into the Jews and Arabs?   Do the Jews  have an original homeland?  Any explanation much appreciated as it is hard going finding 'an idiots guide to the middle eastern conflict'.

It's best that you do your own research into the whole conflict and do it with an open mind, as people on both sides of the conflict will try and influence you one way or the other. I've no dog in the fight and I only support the truth and the facts, modern day Israel was prior to 1948 known as Palestine, the people of gaza are refugees driven from their homes in 1948 from Palestine that is now modern day Israel.

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