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walter sobchak

Middle east violence

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Can anyone explain how it all started, in the very beginning all those thousands of years ago? or point me in the right direction.  Was Israel originally Palestine and the Israeli tribe invaded, or was there just warring different tribes that 'evolved' into the Jews and Arabs?   Do the Jews  have an original homeland?  Any explanation much appreciated as it is hard going finding 'an idiots guide to the middle eastern conflict'.

Basically after going through various empires Israel was reformed by the Maccabees in the 2nd century BC (they were being swapped between two warring Macedonian kingdoms: Ptolemaic Egypt and the Seleucid Empire prior that). This split up into various kingdoms that became Roman protectorates but there were several wars and the Jewish population was expelled from Jerusalem (renamed Aelia Capitolina with the temple replaced by a temple to Jupiter). A large diaspora formed throughout the Roman Empire, in fact 1 in 7 of the population were Jewish at one point but mainly following forms of the religion with a Greek influence. As time went by most of the population of Syria Palestina (as the Romans renamed it) converted to Christianity and fell into Byzantine Empire when Rome split up. The Arabs took advantage of war between Persia and the Byzantine Empire to expand and gradually the majority of the population became Islamic and switched from speaking Greek and Aramaic to Arabic (with the Arabs replaced by Turks and for a time Norman Crusaders). A sizable number of Christians remained but have disproportionately moved to Lebanon and South America.

 

Now the more controversial bits: In the late 1800s under Ottoman rule Palestine and Jordan had a very low population (mainly Bedouin and Circassian and Armenian refugees) so the Turks encouraged Jews to settle and spread commerce. The economic boost saw many Arabs moving there, even more when they wanted to prevent a Jewish majority with talk of a Jewish state. Thus by 1948 Palestine had a much larger population (unlike Jordan which was tiny, with a village as capital. The majority of the population are from Palestine after 1948 (anything from 60-80% depending on who you believe), plus an elite imported from the Hejaz (area around Mecca and Medina) after the rulers were kicked out by Saudi Arabian conquest. Israel and Palestine were given half the land each roughly but the Arab states invaded Israel and in the end Palestine was divided between Israel, Jordan and Egypt. The Jewish populations were gradually expelled from or fled from the Arab world (fled in the case of Iraq, Yemen and Morocco, expelled in the case of Algeria, Libya and Egypt) In other wars Israel took all the original Palestine plus the Golan Heights from Syria and the Sinai peninsula from Egypt (but the latter was given back when Egypt and Israel signed a peace treaty). The biggest mistake Israel made is settling the West Bank as otherwise they could probably grant it independence or give it back to Jordan relatively peacefully (unlike Gaza)

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Cheers Bowes, that's definitely the bones that I can hang the meat on.

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Basically after going through various empires Israel was reformed by the Maccabees in the 2nd century BC (they were being swapped between two warring Macedonian kingdoms: Ptolemaic Egypt and the Seleucid Empire prior that). This split up into various kingdoms that became Roman protectorates but there were several wars and the Jewish population was expelled from Jerusalem (renamed Aelia Capitolina with the temple replaced by a temple to Jupiter). A large diaspora formed throughout the Roman Empire, in fact 1 in 7 of the population were Jewish at one point but mainly following forms of the religion with a Greek influence. As time went by most of the population of Syria Palestina (as the Romans renamed it) converted to Christianity and fell into Byzantine Empire when Rome split up. The Arabs took advantage of war between Persia and the Byzantine Empire to expand and gradually the majority of the population became Islamic and switched from speaking Greek and Aramaic to Arabic (with the Arabs replaced by Turks and for a time Norman Crusaders). A sizable number of Christians remained but have disproportionately moved to Lebanon and South America.

 

Now the more controversial bits: In the late 1800s under Ottoman rule Palestine and Jordan had a very low population (mainly Bedouin and Circassian and Armenian refugees) so the Turks encouraged Jews to settle and spread commerce. The economic boost saw many Arabs moving there, even more when they wanted to prevent a Jewish majority with talk of a Jewish state. Thus by 1948 Palestine had a much larger population (unlike Jordan which was tiny, with a village as capital. The majority of the population are from Palestine after 1948 (anything from 60-80% depending on who you believe), plus an elite imported from the Hejaz (area around Mecca and Medina) after the rulers were kicked out by Saudi Arabian conquest. Israel and Palestine were given half the land each roughly but the Arab states invaded Israel and in the end Palestine was divided between Israel, Jordan and Egypt. The Jewish populations were gradually expelled from or fled from the Arab world (fled in the case of Iraq, Yemen and Morocco, expelled in the case of Algeria, Libya and Egypt) In other wars Israel took all the original Palestine plus the Golan Heights from Syria and the Sinai peninsula from Egypt (but the latter was given back when Egypt and Israel signed a peace treaty). The biggest mistake Israel made is settling the West Bank as otherwise they could probably grant it independence or give it back to Jordan relatively peacefully (unlike Gaza)

The expulsion of the Jews by the Romans is now considered to be a myth. The Jews migrated to Europe looking for work.

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That's true in a wider sense, plus there was widespread conversion in those days (at least to an outer circle if they didn't fancy circumcision). But the banning of Jews from Jerusalem itself seems to have a basis.

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How else can I put into words the "people like you" comment? There were people who said whites and blacks living together in one state was fantasy just like you said with the Palestinians and Israelis living together is fantasy but it happened in south Africa. My question to you is if the one state solution is fantasy, what is your solution? A two state solution? Or nothing but the continuation of the illegal occupation and settlements and the siege on gaza?

The difference is that the leaders of the ANC wanted reconciliation with South African whites. Hamas does not want reconciliation with Israelis.

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The expulsion of the Jews by the Romans is now considered to be a myth. The Jews migrated to Europe looking for work.

Whatever the truth the expulsion had nothing to do with the Palestinians nor did the holocaust, anti-Jewish pogroms in the Russian empire and anti-semetic attacks in Europe or North America.

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Agreed. The US condemned the Israeli bombings of schools and hospitals while at the same time arming them to the teeth with yet more arms. Both the republicans and democrats in the congress stand "shoulder to shoulder" with the Israelis as does the Israeli public, I fear this will go on for some time until Israel suffers a catastrophic event of either a large loss of civilian life or large loss of military life.

Hamas uses schools and hospitals as a place to fire weapons from. Israel returns fire and the world is shocked. Israel and Hamas agree a ceasefire and Hamas breaks it (according to the UN), Israel returns fire and the world is horrified again.

 

It will go on as long as Hamas wish it to. They simply refuse to stop attacking Israel.

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Whatever the truth the expulsion had nothing to do with the Palestinians nor did the holocaust, anti-Jewish pogroms in the Russian empire and anti-semetic attacks in Europe or North America.

I don't recall saying that it did. 

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It's best that you do your own research into the whole conflict and do it with an open mind, as people on both sides of the conflict will try and influence you one way or the other. I've no dog in the fight and I only support the truth and the facts, modern day Israel was prior to 1948 known as Palestine, the people of gaza are refugees driven from their homes in 1948 from Palestine that is now modern day Israel.

Largely untrue.

 

During the conflict in 1948, the Palestinian propaganda of time exaggerated Israeli atrocities and hyped up their military making out that their own victory was inevitable. Based on that most Palestinians simply fled the fighting assuming that they would be able to return to their homes in a couple of weeks.

 

There were killings and there was ethnic cleansing but it was small scale and most refugees simply fled before the Israelis even got to their village.

 

Ironically most Israelis are descendants of Jews who lived in the Muslim world e.g. Iran, Iraq, Egypt. Very many had their property seized and they were thrown out.

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Whatever the truth the expulsion had nothing to do with the Palestinians nor did the holocaust, anti-Jewish pogroms in the Russian empire and anti-semetic attacks in Europe or North America.

On the contrary Christian anti-Semitism largely had its roots in that of the Roman Empire. Islamic anti-Semitism pre dates Israel with Iraq having its own genocidal Nazi aligned regime plus similar in Vichy France's north African colonies alongside earlier pogroms. Mostly Jews were treated no worse than Christians historically in the Arab world though

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On the contrary Christian anti-Semitism largely had its roots in that of the Roman Empire. Islamic anti-Semitism pre dates Israel with Iraq having its own genocidal Nazi aligned regime plus similar in Vichy France's north African colonies alongside earlier pogroms. Mostly Jews were treated no worse than Christians historically in the Arab world though

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a key ally of Hitler as well.

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The difference is that the leaders of the ANC wanted reconciliation with South African whites. Hamas does not want reconciliation with Israelis.

 

The Israelis are not showing too many signs of wanting a reconciliation either.

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I don't recall saying that it did.

Never said you did but a lot of israels supporters try to justify the creation of the colonialist state with the suffering of Jews in Europe and elsewhere.

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It also must be noted that there are members of the Israeli cabinet who oppose a Palestinian state.

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It also must be noted that there are members of the Israeli cabinet who oppose a Palestinian state.

 

Israel's current stated aim is to destroy tunnels and find a missing soldier.

 

Obviously the best way to do this is to shell every building in sight.

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In what way?

In more ore less most of your posts, and in your offensive "people like you" comment, that's all. Over and out.

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.

Israel's current stated aim is to destroy tunnels and find a missing soldier.

Obviously the best way to do this is to shell every building in sight.

And this will help the captured soldier will it? And make Israel safer?

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It also must be noted that there are members of the Israeli cabinet who oppose a Palestinian state.

As do a lot of israels supporters.

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The Israelis are not showing too many signs of wanting a reconciliation either.

Agreed.

 

They can hardly expect peace if they keep building settlements.

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Israel's current stated aim is to destroy tunnels and find a missing soldier.

 

Obviously the best way to do this is to shell every building in sight.

No, their stated aim is to prevent Hamas from firing rockets into Israel.

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Hamas does not want reconciliation with Israelis.

That point you have made is the biggest stumbling block to peace between the Israelis and Palestinians. Until Hamas and the wider MENA states actually recognise that Israel exists, there will never be peace. They are the only ones who can break this awful vicious circle of violence.

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Basically after going through various empires Israel was reformed by the Maccabees in the 2nd century BC (they were being swapped between two warring Macedonian kingdoms: Ptolemaic Egypt and the Seleucid Empire prior that). This split up into various kingdoms that became Roman protectorates but there were several wars and the Jewish population was expelled from Jerusalem (renamed Aelia Capitolina with the temple replaced by a temple to Jupiter). A large diaspora formed throughout the Roman Empire, in fact 1 in 7 of the population were Jewish at one point but mainly following forms of the religion with a Greek influence. As time went by most of the population of Syria Palestina (as the Romans renamed it) converted to Christianity and fell into Byzantine Empire when Rome split up. The Arabs took advantage of war between Persia and the Byzantine Empire to expand and gradually the majority of the population became Islamic and switched from speaking Greek and Aramaic to Arabic (with the Arabs replaced by Turks and for a time Norman Crusaders). A sizable number of Christians remained but have disproportionately moved to Lebanon and South America.

 

Now the more controversial bits: In the late 1800s under Ottoman rule Palestine and Jordan had a very low population (mainly Bedouin and Circassian and Armenian refugees) so the Turks encouraged Jews to settle and spread commerce. The economic boost saw many Arabs moving there, even more when they wanted to prevent a Jewish majority with talk of a Jewish state. Thus by 1948 Palestine had a much larger population (unlike Jordan which was tiny, with a village as capital. The majority of the population are from Palestine after 1948 (anything from 60-80% depending on who you believe), plus an elite imported from the Hejaz (area around Mecca and Medina) after the rulers were kicked out by Saudi Arabian conquest. Israel and Palestine were given half the land each roughly but the Arab states invaded Israel and in the end Palestine was divided between Israel, Jordan and Egypt. The Jewish populations were gradually expelled from or fled from the Arab world (fled in the case of Iraq, Yemen and Morocco, expelled in the case of Algeria, Libya and Egypt) In other wars Israel took all the original Palestine plus the Golan Heights from Syria and the Sinai peninsula from Egypt (but the latter was given back when Egypt and Israel signed a peace treaty). The biggest mistake Israel made is settling the West Bank as otherwise they could probably grant it independence or give it back to Jordan relatively peacefully (unlike Gaza)

Read 'The General's Son' for an interesting (and Jewish) view of Israel's behaviour sice the 1940s.

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.

 

And this will help the captured soldier will it? And make Israel safer?

 

 

Of course it won't.

 

The Israelis seem to enjoy their live version of shooting fish in a barrel to actually stop though so they'll think of a new reason later.

 

There is absolutely no justification for the current Israeli action.  All nations have a right to defend themselves.  They do not have a right to indiscriminately slaughter civilians.

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Of course it won't.

 

The Israelis seem to enjoy their live version of shooting fish in a barrel to actually stop though so they'll think of a new reason later.

 

There is absolutely no justification for the current Israeli action.  All nations have a right to defend themselves.  They do not have a right to indiscriminately slaughter civilians.

I enjoyed hearing the US spokesman describe the capture of the soldier as 'barbaric'. Meanwhile, the slaughter of Palestinians "weighs on our conscience".

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I enjoyed hearing the US spokesman describe the capture of the soldier as 'barbaric'. Meanwhile, the slaughter of Palestinians "weighs on our conscience".

Exactly, they condemn Israel for the mass slaughter of women and children then rush through a bill in congress to in order to send more deadly weapons to the Israelis. If it wasn't so tragic it would be hilarious.

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