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Bedford Roughyed

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I actually don't blame the Tories though, they've enough of a track record that only someone who is terminally stupid while earning below average wage would ever think they're going to be better off under them. 

You're wrong on this one. I earn less than £8 per hour but have never been eligible for a penny of tax credits in my life. £9 an hour minimum wage will make a real difference to me. Under Labour I was at one point earning £13,000 and then having to pay £2,000 out in taxes barely leaving me enough money to live off whilst people earning £50,000 with children were getting tax credits.

 

I do feel sorry for single parents and those with moderate disabilities who will be the biggest losers under the new system, but other working class people will benefit a lot

Edited by bowes

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Yet they can afford to buy all the councillors Ipads last year. Amazing really just what councils will waste precious resources on. I have worked for four different local authorities in my lifetime and not one of them was anything like as responsible with their money as any private enterprise I have worked for. One local Council bought everyone brand new computers just a year or so before I worked for them (which I did in 2010). That equated to 800 staff in one building alone. Meanwhile, a couple of years later I took a job with Sainsbury in St Helens and many staff were still using cruddy old cream coloured chunky PCs as they couldn't afford to buy new computers for everyone all at once - they were in profit in those days too. Sure, that is just computers, but multiply that by all the other incidentals and financial benefits attached to working for local authorities and there is still a lot of waste that can be cut to save money.

Were these iPads to replace a computer or to get them access when mobile working , its not 2005 tablets are replacing computers.

I doubt they bought everyone a pc how about binmen ?

Most councils budgets are spent on the vulnerable young and old. Any waste is probably about the same as a similar size private company.

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Clearly you don't live in St Helens.  St Helens Council has never stopped whinging and bleating about The Cuts since the first round of them was introduced.

 

Yet they can afford to buy all the councillors Ipads last year.  Amazing really just what councils will waste precious resources on.  I have worked for four different local authorities in my lifetime and not one of them was anything like as responsible with their money as any private enterprise I have worked for.  One local Council bought everyone brand new computers just a year or so before I worked for them (which I did in 2010).  That equated to 800 staff in one building alone.  Meanwhile, a couple of years later I took a job with Sainsbury in St Helens and many staff were still using cruddy old cream coloured chunky PCs as they couldn't afford to buy new computers for everyone all at once - they were in profit in those days too.  Sure, that is just computers, but multiply that by all the other incidentals and financial benefits attached to working for local authorities and there is still a lot of waste that can be cut to save money.

I work in the social housing sector the waste by councils is huge, way too many chiefs driving round all day with fancy titles on big salaries doing sweet FA.

My local council leader earns over £100k(expenses) :shout: and the mayor is drove around in a  chauffer driven Rolls

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You're wrong on this one. I earn less than £8 per hour but have never been eligible for a penny of tax credits in my life. £9 an hour minimum wage will make a real difference to me. Under Labour I was at one point earning £13,000 and then having to pay £2,000 out in taxes barely leaving me enough money to live off whilst people earning £50,000 with children were getting tax credits.

 

 

Well done sir you should be applauded but on here I doubt it

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I very much believe in the principle that we should break with the Labour driven benefit dependency culture and instead replace it with a culture that puts great value on work, regardless of the work. As someone who has been in and out of work for five years, unable to secure a permanent job (even though they are around) but typecast as a permanent temp, I know what it is like to have to live off benefits but I don't think it should be easy. It should be something that constantly drives me to look for work - any work. Within my field I have taken on jobs that are menial as well as those that suit my experience. I want to work and I want to earn my money, preferring lower taxes and higher wages to lower wages, higher taxes and a rebate in the form of benefits.

I do have sympathy with those who are struggling. I know how it feels to have to count the coppers in my purse. Change is painful but it doesn't mean that ultimately it isn't for the best. Time will tell.

Has it helped you to break your benefit dependency?

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Fair play to the lady getting the publicity after Question Time for having a crack at setting up her own business, I know only to well how hard that is and I'm currently walking in those shoes.

 

But, there's a few things that niggle me slightly about her situation, as has been covered before, she was happy to vote for a party who everyone knew were going after the benefit system, especially if they got an overall majority, so she's happy for others to bear the brunt who maybe in a worse position than her? 

 

If her business isn't making a profit, then perhaps she should shift it on, raising a few quid that way, or perhaps use the trade accounts she has to carry on buying stock, but instead of using it in a nail bar, set herself up trading on eBay and raise a few quid that way selling it on, freeing up time for her to get a part-time job around the kids and ultimately increase her take home pay.

 

Its not a nice situation for her and many in the same boat, but ultimately we have to make the best of the situation's we find ourselves in and at least this young lady appears to have skills and flair that may well help her earn her way around the cuts.  I'm sure there are many worse off.

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Were these iPads to replace a computer or to get them access when mobile working , its not 2005 tablets are replacing computers.

I doubt they bought everyone a pc how about binmen ?

Most councils budgets are spent on the vulnerable young and old. Any waste is probably about the same as a similar size private company.

The iPads in the case of St Helens Council were in addition to all the other expensive gadgetry in the place.  There was absolutely no need to buy them.  None whatsoever.  They have phones provided too so they can use those if they need 'mobile working' although they have no need for mobile working in the first place.  They aren't working for a multinational company just a local council for heaven's sake.

 

I was talking about waste not about size of budgets.

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The iPads in the case of St Helens Council were in addition to all the other expensive gadgetry in the place. There was absolutely no need to buy them. None whatsoever. They have phones provided too so they can use those if they need 'mobile working' although they have no need for mobile working in the first place. They aren't working for a multinational company just a local council for heaven's sake.

I was talking about waste not about size of budgets.

What other expensive gadgets do they have ? Did you see the business case ? How do you know there was no need? It's easy to be an armchair expert in what councils do\spend. They have phones as well ! Clearly a luxury item. If you think you only need a phone for mobile working then you don't know what it means. Plenty of councils with 6\7k+ staff so yes it is comparable. St helens have about 8.5k employees, Halfords have about 11k to give you some idea.

What about those pc's did the binmen get one aswell ?

Edited by Ramite

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I didn't have one to start with.

So you don't claim benefits when out of work? Or perhaps you do but see yourself as somehow different to all the others who claim benefits; they're benefit dependent but you somehow aren't. And there in lies the problem, from there own point of view they make use of benefits as a last resort to see them through until they can find work, it's all the others who have a "benefits dependency". Truth is it's the other way round, the vast majority of people claiming benefits are just like you. They're no more "benefit dependent" than you are and will be just as desperate for permanent, full time employment. Those who feature in the benefit porn we see on TV and in the papers are the exception rather than the rule.

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What other expensive gadgets do they have ? Did you see the business case ? How do you know there was no need? It's easy to be an armchair expert in what councils do\spend. They have phones as well ! Clearly a luxury item. If you think you only need a phone for mobile working then you don't know what it means. Plenty of councils with 6\7k+ staff so yes it is comparable. St helens have about 8.5k employees, Halfords have about 11k to give you some idea.

What about those pc's did the binmen get one aswell ?

To back up your point, we provided each of our graduate trainees with an iPad to use during their 12 week training programme. They paid for themselves in the first intake on the saved cost of printing alone. It may look like an extravagance, but unless you know all the facts you don't know.

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To back up your point, we provided each of our graduate trainees with an iPad to use during their 12 week training programme. They paid for themselves in the first intake on the saved cost of printing alone. It may look like an extravagance, but unless you know all the facts you don't know.

I know one NHS trust that has bought 100 iPads for their community and District Nurses.  1/3rd the price of the laptops they previously needed for going into the community and far easier to connect to a phone network for the data they need.  Also, support is far cheaper as well given that iPads have far lower support needs than laptops, it's almost 70% cheaper to support an iPad than laptop.  It is the way forward although it has a way to go.  For example, SystmOne Mobile requires a minimum desktop size bigger than the old iPad therefore we may need to go for the nice new shiny iPad Pro to achieve the savings while having productivity increases despite some know-nothings thinking they're just wastes of money.

 

On mobile working, I was going to put a long explanation of the benefits and cost saving of all of this but it'd just be wasted.  In short, imagine if you're at a place other than your core office, have a half hour sitting around but can actually get on with doing some other work because your kind employer has provided you with mobile working capable equipment.  Properly instituted mobile working saves substantial amounts of money for organisations in recovering lost productivity.

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Clearly you don't live in St Helens.  St Helens Council has never stopped whinging and bleating about The Cuts since the first round of them was introduced.

 

Yet they can afford to buy all the councillors Ipads last year.  Amazing really just what councils will waste precious resources on.  I have worked for four different local authorities in my lifetime and not one of them was anything like as responsible with their money as any private enterprise I have worked for.  One local Council bought everyone brand new computers just a year or so before I worked for them (which I did in 2010).  That equated to 800 staff in one building alone.  Meanwhile, a couple of years later I took a job with Sainsbury in St Helens and many staff were still using cruddy old cream coloured chunky PCs as they couldn't afford to buy new computers for everyone all at once - they were in profit in those days too.  Sure, that is just computers, but multiply that by all the other incidentals and financial benefits attached to working for local authorities and there is still a lot of waste that can be cut to save money.

 

Do you know how more efficient is to work from an electronic device rather than work from pen and paper, sending pieces of paper to every member of the council etc. etc.

Edited by ckn

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Do you know how more efficient is to work from an electronic device rather than work from pen and paper, sending pieces of paper to every member of the council etc. etc.

I wasn't aware electronic devices were donated to local authorities for free?  Since when has that been the case? 

Edited by ckn

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I wasn't aware electronic devices were donated to local authorities for free?  Since when has that been the case? 

I'll give you an example from the NHS.  A District Nurse visits a patient at home, they have immediate access to the patient's full medical record split by GP notes, care notes from other DNs, hospital notes and so on.  The DN then checks the care record that has been set by other people who have visited the patient including notes.  They also get immediate access to safeguarding stuff such as any concerns listed about their treatment, potential abuse and so on, that's stuffed in their face the second it's on the record.  Anything they add goes onto the record so any GP doing work with the patient gets access to it immediately, same with if they go into hospital.

 

Remove that access, the DN has to hope that they have a paper record somewhere, they have no clue what the GP has done and so on, the GP has no clue what they're doing.  Also, if the DN is asked to go see someone at very short notice then they're hoping the patient is well enough to be able to tell them things.

 

On to the point raised about councillors.  If you give them an iPad then they have immediate access to their emails and documents regardless of where they go.  It's also far more secure than any other data source.  IT can wipe it at a single command if it's lost or stolen.  Harder to do that than with anything else and it also stops idiot data losses like have happened with other data formats.

 

The public sector going paperless would save many millions each year.  There's the paper cost.  Then the cost of printers, toner, support, repair bills, floorspace for them, postage and so on.

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I wasn't aware electronic devices were donated to local authorities for free?  Since when has that been the case? 

 

With that thinking no council would have a computer anywhere, in fact no business would. You can't by a computer, they cost money don't you know.

 

Its called pay back, or basic economics.

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I live in St Helens as well, and you know what they have wasted my council tax on motorised vehicles to collect the rubbish, what was wrong with the horse and carts.

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I live in St Helens as well, and you know what they have wasted my council tax on motorised vehicles to collect the rubbish, what was wrong with the horse and carts.

 

Probably paid for them to do Moving & Handling and Health & Safety training too, as if that's needed for grunts.

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The public sector going paperless would save many millions each year.  There's the paper cost.  Then the cost of printers, toner, support, repair bills, floorspace for them, postage and so on.

Before we had computers we had to go to the post office or a stationers to buy a writing pad.

With the advent of computers we were able to do without the need to buy a "Basildon Bond" ( remember them?) writing pad ( unlined if you were posh).

Now in this bright new paperless world every supermarket has an area that sells paper by the ream. Ironic isn't it?

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The charity I work for has saved a few thousand every year by adopting an attitude of not printing.  We used to, for example, print out a copy of the agenda and 'papers' for each of the trustees and staff at their meeting.  Now we only print out on request and only one trustee now requests that.  The others use their laptops or tablets - on which they also make notes.  The staff also use laptops, decent ones that can also handle cloud access, video processing and all manner of modern-world things, bought by the charity (with the trustees permission) and have still saved money against our previous expenses.

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Before we had computers we had to go to the post office or a stationers to buy a writing pad.

With the advent of computers we were able to do without the need to buy a "Basildon Bond" ( remember them?) writing pad ( unlined if you were posh).

Now in this bright new paperless world every supermarket has an area that sells paper by the ream. Ironic isn't it?

 

Well not really, a lot of businesses have merely moved the cost of printing to the end user.

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What other expensive gadgets do they have ? Did you see the business case ? How do you know there was no need? It's easy to be an armchair expert in what councils do\spend. They have phones as well ! Clearly a luxury item. If you think you only need a phone for mobile working then you don't know what it means. Plenty of councils with 6\7k+ staff so yes it is comparable. St helens have about 8.5k employees, Halfords have about 11k to give you some idea.

What about those pc's did the binmen get one aswell ?

First of all, I'm not an 'armchair expert'.  I have worked for four different councils.  Secondly, in the case of St Helens they have been loudly whinging about The Cuts since the first round of cuts, as I said in my initial post.  Therefore, if they are so broke, where is the money coming from to buy the IPads in the first place?  IPads may or may not be financially more efficient in the long term but when you have a council which moans about the cuts but then pays money up front for technology it could actually do without - there are plenty of laptops around already - to a group of individuals who are not frontline care staff or indeed in any real need of them to increase their productivity or effectiveness (how does an IPad increase the productivity or effectiveness of a councillor when they already have laptops?) - I am calling it as wasted money, money that could either be saved or be spent on frontline services.

 

Either that or St Helens Council is lying through its collective teeth and it has far more money than its whinging would suggest.

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First of all, I'm not an 'armchair expert'.  I have worked for four different councils.  Secondly, in the case of St Helens they have been loudly whinging about The Cuts since the first round of cuts, as I said in my initial post.  Therefore, if they are so broke, where is the money coming from to buy the IPads in the first place?  IPads may or may not be financially more efficient in the long term but when you have a council which moans about the cuts but then pays money up front for technology it could actually do without - there are plenty of laptops around already - to a group of individuals who are not frontline care staff or indeed in any real need of them to increase their productivity or effectiveness (how does an IPad increase the productivity or effectiveness of a councillor when they already have laptops?) - I am calling it as wasted money, money that could either be saved or be spent on frontline services.

 

Either that or St Helens Council is lying through its collective teeth and it has far more money than its whinging would suggest.

 

The idea that public money can be spent to save money in the long term and invested for the future is completely alien to Tories like yourself isn't it? It's what lies (sic!) behind the whole austerity agenda and the ludicrous idea that public finance is like a household budget. It is, simply put, economic illiteracy.

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