gingerjon Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 This over representation of the poppy diminishes its power. The fetishisation of it by the militaristic morons who've never been near actual service in their life borders on parody. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 As many of you know my son served, and was badly wounded in Afghanistan. His view is, buy one if you want, wear one if you want but don't be dictated to. It's about choice, one of the things he was serving to defend. "Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 "buy one if you want, wear one if you want but don't be dictated to." Can I add, "donate if you wish to" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 No one is being denied any freedom. This is about broadcasters ensuring the correct protocols are observed during air time. What staff do when not on air and in their own time is entirely their choice. I disagree very strongly. What if your personal beliefs do not permit that? Its not up to ANY employer, ANY employer at all, to infringe one's personal liberty in this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 The BBC & other TV stations should ensure that ALL their broadcasters wear the poppy during screen time. What they then do when off air is down to them. That is rubbish of the highest order. Should they all be forced to wear a crucifix to fall in line with the nations official religion. Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE4Wire Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 it should be official policy to wear the poppy whilst on air. This is where your argument falls down. Why should it be? Back that statement up. I, personally don't think it should be but I admit that is a personal view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trojan Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 I always buy one, never wear it because I've nowhere to pin it. I buy one because my dad gave possibly the best 6 years of his life, the years when most of us were establishing ourselves and getting on in life, to defending his country and I believe I should recognise that. One thing puzzles me, some TV programmes are recorded weeks, even months ahead of schedule, but they've got their poppies on. Presumably there are special supplies for for broadcasters. Those who served in Iraq,Afghanistan, N Ireland were volunteers professionals who were doing their jobs, I'm a bit ambivalent about them. But many of those killed and injured in two world wars, in Korea, in Suez and Malaya were conscripts who had no choice at all. I find it a paradox that Tory governments who are sanctimonious about taking people's money in tax thought nothing of taking these same people's lives as conscripts. “Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.” Clement Attlee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 I find it a paradox that Tory governments who are sanctimonious about taking people's money in tax thought nothing of taking these same people's lives as conscripts. More detail might help, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckn Posted October 25, 2015 Author Share Posted October 25, 2015 I always buy one, never wear it because I've nowhere to pin it. I buy one because my dad gave possibly the best 6 years of his life, the years when most of us were establishing ourselves and getting on in life, to defending his country and I believe I should recognise that. One thing puzzles me, some TV programmes are recorded weeks, even months ahead of schedule, but they've got their poppies on. Presumably there are special supplies for for broadcasters. Those who served in Iraq,Afghanistan, N Ireland were volunteers professionals who were doing their jobs, I'm a bit ambivalent about them. But many of those killed and injured in two world wars, in Korea, in Suez and Malaya were conscripts who had no choice at all. I find it a paradox that Tory governments who are sanctimonious about taking people's money in tax thought nothing of taking these same people's lives as conscripts. Modern volunteers are not exactly getting a huge reward in return for risking their lives though. I joined the army voluntarily because I saw no other option available to me. When I left school we were living in Fife in Scotland. Rosyth dockyard's apprentice scheme was being closed down. The pits had just been closed leaving one opencast, largely mechanised pit. What was a very productive little village turned into a village full of unemployed people. I hadn't done well enough in school meaning university was out. There were no other jobs I could reasonably see that would allow me to do anything other than general labour work. I joined the army. I risked my life in two wars/combat arenas and then the lovely time spent relaxing in Northern Ireland. From that time, I saw from my relatively small unit four people discharged with PTSD, one with an amputated leg, more than a few with serious and debilitating lifelong physical and mental injuries. From that, the government gives you a pat on the head,"thank you for your service, now f*** off" and discharges you. But for the charity sector and the advocacy of the groups like RBL injured ex-servicemen would be left to rot. I know two people (two of those with PTSD I mentioned earlier) who put their continued lives down to the support they received from RBL and the charities who worked with them. I know one widow (one of the other PTSD friends) who still gets help from RBL years later. I know another who had their house redesigned to assist with his disabilities after the government and council essentially said "tough, suck it up". Donating to RBL through the Poppy Appeal is 100% voluntary. If you're not convinced, don't give. I genuinely won't judge you for that. I certainly won't judge anyone who doesn't or chooses not to wear the Poppy. But please remember those of the living generation who have put their lives on the line for the state, regardless of the rights or wrongs of that, and have effectively been left to rot except for the charitable sector. That's where the money goes. Here's a very petty example of government bureaucracy towards injured veterans. When I was discharged I was given a certificate that showed I was allowed free prescriptions for any medication around certain conditions. A simple bit of green paper (A4 width but about 1/4 the height). After nearly 20 years it was getting a bit ragged and hard to read, plus it was at least four agencies out of date. I called up asking for a replacement. A replacement bit of paper. You'd think I was asking permission to move into Buckingham Palace going by the effort they went to to persuade me I neither needed nor was "qualified" to get a replacement. I did get one but it required a signed certificate (at my cost) from my GP that I still had the same issues that I then had to send by recorded delivery for them to then take four months to send me a replacement. Oh, yes, they also sent me a little lapel badge. "When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derwent Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 I have never bought or worn a poppy, not least because I think they are naff. Instead I donate to a few ex services charities such as Help for Heroes, BLESMA and SSAFA who do some wonderful work. I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trojan Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 Modern volunteers are not exactly getting a huge reward in return for risking their lives though. I joined the army voluntarily because I saw no other option available to me. When I left school we were living in Fife in Scotland. Rosyth dockyard's apprentice scheme was being closed down. The pits had just been closed leaving one opencast, largely mechanised pit. What was a very productive little village turned into a village full of unemployed people. I hadn't done well enough in school meaning university was out. There were no other jobs I could reasonably see that would allow me to do anything other than general labour work. I joined the army. I risked my life in two wars/combat arenas and then the lovely time spent relaxing in Northern Ireland. From that time, I saw from my relatively small unit four people discharged with PTSD, one with an amputated leg, more than a few with serious and debilitating lifelong physical and mental injuries. From that, the government gives you a pat on the head,"thank you for your service, now f*** off" and discharges you. But for the charity sector and the advocacy of the groups like RBL injured ex-servicemen would be left to rot. I know two people (two of those with PTSD I mentioned earlier) who put their continued lives down to the support they received from RBL and the charities who worked with them. I know one widow (one of the other PTSD friends) who still gets help from RBL years later. I know another who had their house redesigned to assist with his disabilities after the government and council essentially said "tough, suck it up". Donating to RBL through the Poppy Appeal is 100% voluntary. If you're not convinced, don't give. I genuinely won't judge you for that. I certainly won't judge anyone who doesn't or chooses not to wear the Poppy. But please remember those of the living generation who have put their lives on the line for the state, regardless of the rights or wrongs of that, and have effectively been left to rot except for the charitable sector. That's where the money goes. Here's a very petty example of government bureaucracy towards injured veterans. When I was discharged I was given a certificate that showed I was allowed free prescriptions for any medication around certain conditions. A simple bit of green paper (A4 width but about 1/4 the height). After nearly 20 years it was getting a bit ragged and hard to read, plus it was at least four agencies out of date. I called up asking for a replacement. A replacement bit of paper. You'd think I was asking permission to move into Buckingham Palace going by the effort they went to to persuade me I neither needed nor was "qualified" to get a replacement. I did get one but it required a signed certificate (at my cost) from my GP that I still had the same issues that I then had to send by recorded delivery for them to then take four months to send me a replacement. Oh, yes, they also sent me a little lapel badge. I thought I'd explained why I buy one. As for those servicemen who are injured or killed, they have my sympathy, but they were volunteers. Those who were killed down the pits were volunteers, merchant seamen, volunteers. Construction and quarrying are dangerous industries and there are casualties. But they get no parades at memorials, no wearing of special insignia, no two minutes silence, no "Help for Heroes." They were doing it for the money just like the servicemen. My son in law was a soldier. He enlisted because under Thatcher there were no jobs. Not out of patriotism but out of need. I think we have a distorted view of the services in our country. “Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.” Clement Attlee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trojan Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 I find it a paradox that Tory governments who are sanctimonious about taking people's money in tax thought nothing of taking these same people's lives as conscripts. More detail might help, please. The Tories led us into WWII which involved conscription. They were in charge during the period of the various colonial wars of the fifties, in Suez, in Cyprus, in Malaya, in Korea, in Kenya. In all these places conscripts lost their lives. Or lost two years of their lives doing something about which they had no choice. And let's face it the Tories were all for it. Some of them are all for it now and have said so. But when it comes to tax, money well they believe people should be allowed to keep as much as possible. Indeed the more they've got the more they believe they should be allowed to keep it. It hypocritical. But then what else would you expect from Tories who value property more than life. “Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.” Clement Attlee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Futtocks Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 My dad did national service as a Scots Guards band player without seeing action. My grandparents on my dad's side were Salvation Army and made their own non-combatant contributions during wartime. My grandparents on my mum's side - I don't know. The most recent ancestor I know of who actually saw combat was in the American Civil War. I buy a poppy every year because I feel it is a worthwhile charity, without having any direct connection to anyone who served or fell. If you ever find me dictating who should and shouldn't display the badge of a charity, shoot me and shoot straight! Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. Ralph Waldo Emerson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenilworth Tiger Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 I buy one or two every year. I don't overthink the situation regarding should I or shouldn't I or whether I'll upset anyone - I do it because it just feels right to me Now then, it's a race between Sandie....and Fairburn....and the little man is in........yeees he's in. I, just like those Castleford supporters felt that the ball should have gone to David Plange but he put the bit betwen his teeth...and it was a try Kevin Ward - best player I have ever seen The real Mick Gledhill is what you see on here, a Bradford fan ........, but deep down knows that Bradford are just not good enough to challenge the likes of Leeds & St Helens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeW Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 The Tories led us into WWII which involved conscription. They were in charge during the period of the various colonial wars of the fifties, in Suez, in Cyprus, in Malaya, in Korea, in Kenya. In all these places conscripts lost their lives. Or lost two years of their lives doing something about which they had no choice. And let's face it the Tories were all for it. Some of them are all for it now and have said so. But when it comes to tax, money well they believe people should be allowed to keep as much as possible. Indeed the more they've got the more they believe they should be allowed to keep it. It hypocritical. But then what else would you expect from Tories who value property more than life. Are you actually blaming the Tories for World War 2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrywebbisgod Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 One word "respect" Thank you for your valuable contribution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trojan Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Are you actually blaming the Tories for World War 2? No I'm saying they were in charge when it started. They (in coalition) introduced conscription, and they expected the citizens of this country to be prepared if necessary to die for it. “Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.” Clement Attlee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Thhis topic is about the Poppy, rather than an opporunity to air flawed, outdated and discredited political nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amber Avenger Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 One thing puzzles me, some TV programmes are recorded weeks, even months ahead of schedule, but they've got their poppies on. Presumably there are special supplies for for broadcasters. A few years back when I was living a rock and roll student lifestyle, I went to go see Countdown being filmed. They film an entire week’s worth in a single day and I went in September for episodes going out in November. Halfway through the first episode – which I think was going out on the 10th November – they realised they had totally forgotten it’d be broadcast during the remembrance period. Some runner was dispatched to go and find some, and was back pretty quick sharp for the show going out on the 11th. Doubtless, there will be someone in the costume department of various TV production companies who keeps an emergency supply outside of “peak period”, before the relevant donations are made and supplies are topped up at this time of year. SQL Honours Play off mini league winner - 2002. Bronze Medalist - 2003. Big Split Group Winner - 2006. Minor Stupidship - 2005, 2006. Cup Silver Medalist - 2008, 2009 CHAMPION - 2005, 2009, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff9of13 Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 A few years back when I was living a rock and roll student lifestyle, I went to go see Countdown being filmed. They film an entire week’s worth in a single day and I went in September for episodes going out in November. Halfway through the first episode – which I think was going out on the 10th November – they realised they had totally forgotten it’d be broadcast during the remembrance period. Some runner was dispatched to go and find some, and was back pretty quick sharp for the show going out on the 11th. Doubtless, there will be someone in the costume department of various TV production companies who keeps an emergency supply outside of “peak period”, before the relevant donations are made and supplies are topped up at this time of year. If public figures are wearing them on TV without making a donation then what's the point? "it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amber Avenger Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 If public figures are wearing them on TV without making a donation then what's the point? I have some sympathy with the production staff here, because they just can't win if they are filming something out of season. I have no doubt the poppies had been paid for the previous year and another donation would be forthcoming in the upcoming year. It's damned if you do and damned if you don't - I doubt most people are bothered by the actual admin of when it's paid for, and if they weren't making a donation at all then I'm sure there would be a public outcry from the usual suspects in the press. SQL Honours Play off mini league winner - 2002. Bronze Medalist - 2003. Big Split Group Winner - 2006. Minor Stupidship - 2005, 2006. Cup Silver Medalist - 2008, 2009 CHAMPION - 2005, 2009, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfie Taylor Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Nothing to do with personal choice. The newscasters are in work and it should be official policy to wear the poppy whilst on air. What they do when off air and at any other time IS entirely their choice. Should the footballer James McClean be forced to wear one when playing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCarter Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 This is where your argument falls down. Why should it be? Back that statement up. I, personally don't think it should be but I admit that is a personal view. Public service broadcasters are obliged to follow certain codes as part of their licence. I find it bizarre that there is a watershed for 'moral' reasons, but that any suggestion that public service broadcasters should ensure staff wear a poppy when on air is met with such opprobrium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCarter Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Should the footballer James McClean be forced to wear one when playing? Is his employer a public service broadcaster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckn Posted October 29, 2015 Author Share Posted October 29, 2015 You really have no comprehension why it MUST. be voluntary, do you? "When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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