Phil

Those nice tories

Recommended Posts

On 9/15/2018 at 12:07 PM, Saintslass said:

Oh, you mean Tories don't share your opinion or way of doing things?

 

"Different way of doing things".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Saint 1 said:

"Different way of doing things".

Ah right, so you weren't talking about the government, whereas I was.

As for Facebook: racists exist on there.  I doubt JRM knows how to get on Facebook much less see what garbage is being put on there but I would confidently assert that if that kind of BS was highlighted to him he'd be the first out of the blocks to condemn it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, shrek said:

 

Iain Dale used to be a member of the Tories.  I'm not sure whether he is still.  I debated his point on Twitter, though he didn't respond.  I make the same point I made when Saudi Arabia came up on here (as it invariably does every now and again) and indeed in relation to Trump: the British government should not be criticising or condemning the leader of another country.  We have diplomatic channels for that kind of thing.  It's easy to spout like Dale has done when you aren't in government.  It's a different matter when you actually have responsibility and what you say on TV actually has impact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

Iain Dale used to be a member of the Tories.  I'm not sure whether he is still.  I debated his point on Twitter, though he didn't respond.  I make the same point I made when Saudi Arabia came up on here (as it invariably does every now and again) and indeed in relation to Trump: the British government should not be criticising or condemning the leader of another country.  We have diplomatic channels for that kind of thing.  It's easy to spout like Dale has done when you aren't in government.  It's a different matter when you actually have responsibility and what you say on TV actually has impact.

He isn't, obviously still very much in the clique though given his ability to get interviews with many of the senior members of party including the PM.

I like Dale, I have to confess, whilst disagreeing with him on many things I tend to find his opinion to be considered and well made rather than "spouting".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, shrek said:

He isn't, obviously still very much in the clique though given his ability to get interviews with many of the senior members of party including the PM.

I like Dale, I have to confess, whilst disagreeing with him on many things I tend to find his opinion to be considered and well made rather than "spouting".

His opinion may well be considered but that doesn't mean he isn't spouting.  Just like ranting, spouting simply implies that he's free to say what he likes, which he is, because there are few consequences to him doing so.  When the government of a democratic nation like ours begins to call leaders out on TV then that can have serious ramifications, not least for our own people living in those countries, and especially when those leaders have been democratically elected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Saintslass said:

His opinion may well be considered but that doesn't mean he isn't spouting.  Just like ranting, spouting simply implies that he's free to say what he likes, which he is, because there are few consequences to him doing so.  When the government of a democratic nation like ours begins to call leaders out on TV then that can have serious ramifications, not least for our own people living in those countries, and especially when those leaders have been democratically elected.

You must be fuming at the relentless "spouting" heading towards Mrs May from her own mps!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Shadow said:

Remember those accurate “facts” you posted about Eastern European immigration.

that was an out and out lie

remember your claims about passport control? You were wrong again. 

Remind me....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, kiyan said:

Remind me....

I think a few people are alluding to the fact that you have recently made a number of cast iron statements of fact that have in turn been found to be mistaken/incorrect.  From the top of my head -

  • Prison populations
  • Immigrants numbers from Eastern EA
  • Polling in NI for reunification 
  • Amount of new money for NI health
  • Border controls

Now one on two you can say you were wrong but it didn't effect the thrust of your argument (I'm being generous) however, when someone pops up once or twice a week and needs to be fact checked on most statements, then some members might begin to discount everything one says.  

Or maybe Shadow and Bob8 have just got it wrong?

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

A thread -

Remember, we keep getting told we need to improve massively the skill levels of kids, especially as we leave the EU.

Look, if we invest in skills and education for young people what on earth will the dull old saps who like to tut at teenagers find to do all day?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

I think a few people are alluding to the fact that you have recently made a number of cast iron statements of fact that have in turn been found to be mistaken/incorrect.  From the top of my head -

  • Prison populations
  • Immigrants numbers from Eastern EA
  • Polling in NI for reunification 
  • Amount of new money for NI health
  • Border controls

Now one on two you can say you were wrong but it didn't effect the thrust of your argument (I'm being generous) however, when someone pops up once or twice a week and needs to be fact checked on most statements, then some members might begin to discount everything one says.  

Or maybe Shadow and Bob8 have just got it wrong?

Kiyan lies all the time and carries on lying even when the actual facts are not only pointed out but either linked to written out.

Hence: on ignore because they add nothing but shouting to any conversation.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 7:49 AM, Bedford Roughyed said:

I think a few people are alluding to the fact that you have recently made a number of cast iron statements of fact that have in turn been found to be mistaken/incorrect.  From the top of my head -

  • Prison populations
  • Immigrants numbers from Eastern EA
  • Polling in NI for reunification 
  • Amount of new money for NI health
  • Border controls

Now one on two you can say you were wrong but it didn't effect the thrust of your argument (I'm being generous) however, when someone pops up once or twice a week and needs to be fact checked on most statements, then some members might begin to discount everything one says.  

Or maybe Shadow and Bob8 have just got it wrong?

From the top of your head you believe I was mistaken/incorrect in those posts.

Please quote the posts you believe I was incorrect in and I will happily try and defend them - I may be incorrect and happy to be corrected, but shouting FAKE news with a lot of I "believe you said" hoping that the opinion sticks is Trumpism at its best.

Lets pick the middle one on your list - Polling for Irish reunification ( NI doesn't have to the reunited).  What have I said and what facts do you have to show I am incorrect?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 10:06 AM, gingerjon said:

Kiyan lies all the time and carries on lying even when the actual facts are not only pointed out but either linked to written out.

Hence: on ignore because they add nothing but shouting to any conversation.

Someone who knows he is wrong stops the discussion and blocks people - Donald Trump!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 9:37 AM, Shadow said:

Remember those accurate “facts” you posted about Eastern European immigration.

that was an out and out lie

remember your claims about passport control? You were wrong again. 

So when I said remind me of the lies, you didn't provide any quotes.  All you did was throw some more FAKE NEWS rants!

Defend your point and allow some scrutiny/discussion  or accept you are a parody of Donald Trump; shouting FAKE NEWS from behind a key board, hoping some will believe you!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, kiyan said:

 

Please quote the posts you believe I was incorrect in and I will happily try and defend them - I may be incorrect and happy to be corrected, but shouting FAKE news with a lot of I "believe you said" hoping that the opinion sticks is Trumpism at its best.

I don't bother reading most of Kiyan's posts. Not because I agree/disagree with his points but because sometimes I just can't be bothered. However I think he makes a fair point here. If you think he's wrong/lying on some point, show him where he's wrong/lying. 

You never know, you might change his mind. The problem is he might change yours.

Happy debating! 

Edited by Wiltshire Rhino
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, kiyan said:

Lets pick the middle one on your list - Polling for Irish reunification ( NI doesn't have to the reunited).  What have I said and what facts do you have to show I am incorrect?

I quoted you at the time.  See your notifications.

Page 217

Edited by Bedford Roughyed
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎9‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 8:05 AM, Bedford Roughyed said:

Lord Ashcrofts polling from June 2018 -

12-NI12-Irish-Unification-Ref-w-logo.jpg

And 

13-ROI11-practical-unification-w-logo.jp

 

 

3 hours ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

I quoted you at the time.  See your notifications.

Page 217

So you chose to call me a liar on polling done by Lord Ashcroft?

The Conservative peer who Labour have spent 4 years proclaiming his polling figures are statistically wrong and he is a Tory mouth piece - yet here I am being called a liar based on his poll! 

That said you have proven my comment correct!  65% of the poll you quote does not want a United Ireland in the next 5 years! ( 56 plus 9) and that is only the response in the Republic Of Ireland!

Polls are set up to make the result you want.

A major academic study published in the Irish Times  and repeated in the Belfast Telegraph last week predicts that the standard of living would reduce by 15% if a United Ireland  would happen, and may never recover to current levels.

The original Irish Times article ( based on an academic study by Trinity College Dublin and Dublin City University) is here

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/united-ireland-would-see-living-standards-in-republic-fall-by-15-1.3629748

which may be behind a paywall or an summary below on the Belfast Telegraph here:

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/united-ireland-would-permanently-reduce-living-standards-of-those-in-republic-37319447.html

Knowing that the GFA  (Good Friday Agreement - for those wanting a say but not sure what they are talking about)  requires a separate referendum  and a majority in both for a United Ireland  - having been told how much it would cost those in the Republic of Ireland, how do you think that would affect  the poll quoted above showing 9% in favour of reunification ( the academic piece showing a 15% drop in living standards came after that poll)?

Back to you using Lord Ashcroft polls to call me a liar:

I can show various polls and articles and academic studies to show where my figure came from:

eg https://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/brexitni/BrexitandtheBorder/Report/Filetoupload,820734,en.pdf

or recently

http://www.thejournal.ie/united-ireland-poll-3-4059433-Jun2018/

who omitted to ask those in Southern Ireland their opinion!

You use Lord Ashcroft who numerous people on this forum ( including some who liked your post)  decried as nothing more than a Tory Fake News Monger  as your evidence that I make stuff up and lie!

You need to catch a grip and stop believing the bumph some others on here are feeding you!

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't know which thread this was most appropriate for so I'll put it on both,

"Deal or no deal on Brexit, the Teflons aren't fit for office"

http://www.thenational.scot/news/16887017.deal-or-no-deal-on-brexit-the-tories-arent-fit-for-office/

I'm coming to regards Scotland as a nice place to live.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Wiltshire Rhino said:

I don't bother reading most of Kiyan's posts. Not because I agree/disagree with his points but because sometimes I just can't be bothered. However I think he makes a fair point here. If you think he's wrong/lying on some point, show him where he's wrong/lying. 

You never know, you might change his mind. The problem is he might change yours.

Happy debating! 

He is a little from the Parksider school. 

He makes a reasonable post, but then the facts he quotes turn out to be fabricated, links that are nothing like he says they are etc.  The points he refutes turn out not to have been made.

It is a shame, because, like Parksider, he has some reasonable points.  But, if I cannot trust what he writes as being genuine, I see little point in reading it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Wiltshire Rhino said:

I don't bother reading most of Kiyan's posts. Not because I agree/disagree with his points but because sometimes I just can't be bothered. However I think he makes a fair point here. If you think he's wrong/lying on some point, show him where he's wrong/lying. 

You never know, you might change his mind. The problem is he might change yours.

Happy debating! 

I quoted his lies and hypocrisy at the time, he refused to address the issue then and is refusing to address the issue now.

several people including me have called him out on his wrong "facts" his distortion, his hypocrisy and his outright lies.

his debating style of choice is just to ignore any points raised and do the online equivalent of shouting louder. I'll remind you of the proverb about empty vessels and comparative volume.

there is little point in engaging with him, he is a fool.

 

Edited by Shadow
Fat fingers
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Wiltshire Rhino said:

I don't bother reading most of Kiyan's posts. Not because I agree/disagree with his points but because sometimes I just can't be bothered. However I think he makes a fair point here. If you think he's wrong/lying on some point, show him where he's wrong/lying. 

You never know, you might change his mind. The problem is he might change yours.

Happy debating! 

I’m genuinely more than happy to debate with people who disagree with me. My position on a lot of things has moved as a result.

But that’s not the issue here. The issue is lies that have been repeatedly pointed out that then get used again and again and again.

His lies have been pointed out numerous times. If he’s now asking for evidence he should just read his replies going back over the past weeks and months.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

-snip-

Sigh.

You made this cast iron statement - 

On 9/10/2018 at 2:52 AM, kiyan said:

The issue is remaining part of  the UK or uniting Ireland.  Every poll in NI shows over 65% of people in NI want to stay in the UK and 15% for a united Ireland  - which means the majority of those who vote nationalist parties would not vote  for an united Ireland.

Widen those polls to the Republic of Ireland, ( which as per the Good Friday Agreement) are also required to vote for a united Ireland  and it is less than 10% in favour.

I posted 2 polls from 2018, Ashcroft poll and Delta poll, which both showed your statement of 'every poll in NI shows over 65%' was not correct.  I could of posted 3 other polls (NILT, Yougov and ICM) that also showed less than 65% being in favour.   

Your additional statement was about widening the polls to the RoI, and again the recent polls don't support your statement.

Quote

The Conservative peer who Labour have spent 4 years proclaiming his polling figures are statistically wrong and he is a Tory mouth piece - yet here I am being called a liar based on his poll! 

That said you have proven my comment correct!  65% of the poll you quote does not want a United Ireland in the next 5 years! ( 56 plus 9) and that is only the response in the Republic Of Ireland!

Lord Ashcrofts polling is considered to be pretty good, even if the man himself isn't.

As for proving you correct that 65% of people in NI want to stay in the UK?  Well if you add on a 5 year caveat, use a poll from the Republic of Ireland and then add people who support a united Ireland in principle to your percentage... 

Quote

I can show various polls and articles and academic studies to show where my figure came from:

eg https://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/brexitni/BrexitandtheBorder/Report/Filetoupload,820734,en.pdf

or recently

http://www.thejournal.ie/united-ireland-poll-3-4059433-Jun2018/

Yet both the study and article you quote show less than 65% support?  

The headline of The Journal article was -

42% of people in the North want a united Ireland - poll

And used the poll I quoted on page 217!

The study you quoted says this -

Quote

Our attitude survey reveals that 21% of the entire population would vote in favour of a united Ireland in a referendum, and 50% would vote to remain in the UK (othersare ‘don’t knows’ or would not vote).

50% is less than 65%.

Now if your cast iron definitive statement was 'polls show a majority want to stay part of the UK' then you would be correct.  But you didn't, you said  'Every poll in NI shows over 65% of people in NI want to stay in the UK'.

Your defence of that statement by using data which shows you was wrong will only further the feeling that you use 'facts and figures' disingenuously.

Good day Sir. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

Sigh.

You made this cast iron statement - 

I posted 2 polls from 2018, Ashcroft poll and Delta poll, which both showed your statement of 'every poll in NI shows over 65%' was not correct.  I could of posted 3 other polls (NILT, Yougov and ICM) that also showed less than 65% being in favour.   

Your additional statement was about widening the polls to the RoI, and again the recent polls don't support your statement.

Lord Ashcrofts polling is considered to be pretty good, even if the man himself isn't.

As for proving you correct that 65% of people in NI want to stay in the UK?  Well if you add on a 5 year caveat, use a poll from the Republic of Ireland and then add people who support a united Ireland in principle to your percentage... 

Yet both the study and article you quote show less than 65% support?  

The headline of The Journal article was -

42% of people in the North want a united Ireland - poll

And used the poll I quoted on page 217!

The study you quoted says this -

50% is less than 65%.

Now if your cast iron definitive statement was 'polls show a majority want to stay part of the UK' then you would be correct.  But you didn't, you said  'Every poll in NI shows over 65% of people in NI want to stay in the UK'.

Your defence of that statement by using data which shows you was wrong will only further the feeling that you use 'facts and figures' disingenuously.

Good day Sir. 

 

073DEDAA-FF73-4CFD-A9BB-21A04BBABBC5.jpeg

Edited by Shadow
  • Like 1
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


League Express - Online Now

League Express - Every Monday



Rugby League World - Sept 2018

Rugby League World - Sept 2018

Rugby League Books On Sale Here