Phil

Those nice tories

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Although I do know one guy who went deliberately homeless about 5 years ago and still is.  He had a rough divorce after leaving the army due to being injured and now lives way, way off track somewhere only a few of us know about.  He survives on his army medical discharge pension of about £450p/m in a reinforced tent and is quite happy.  He gets all the time he needs to read using his two electronic books (a Kindle and the KoBo) hooked up to the library's ebook system and is a very modern day hermit.  His food needs are quite low, usually under £20p/w as he helps himself to "ahem" free range food.  He has three brick sized solar charging batteries to power his USB kit and has his weekly shower at the local swimming pool about a 10 mile walk from where he lives at the same time as his clothes are in the launderette.  As he tends to spend under £200 a month he's got a few thousand saved away for if he does ever need emergency stuff or decides to come back to civilisation.  I spent a couple of nights with him two years ago just to see if he was really alright, he said two nights was about the most he could put up with human company these days, even with good friends.

 

That said, I'd doubt that more than a tiny, tiny percentage of homeless people are in that situation.  I'd guess way under 1%.  It certainly hasn't caused the rise in homelessness we see now.

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ESA benefit cuts forced through by Tories on ‘black day for disabled people’
 
"But Lords in the upper chamber ran out of options after the Speaker of the Commons attached a “financial privilege” to the Bill. The privilege can be used by the Commons as grounds for overruling any Lords proposal that has a cost implication.

"This is a black day for disabled people,” warned the independent crossbencher Lord Low of Dalston, during the debate on Monday evening.

He added: “The Commons have spoken decisively and we must now bow to their wishes, but we do so under protest.” Lord Low also accused the government whips of “working overtime last Wednesday night in the House of Commons, going round handing out bribes and blandishments like there was no tomorrow”.
Research by the Disability Benefits Consortium suggests the low level of benefit is already failing to meet disabled people's needs.

A survey of 500 people in the affected group found that 28 per cent of people had been unable to afford to eat while in receipt of the the benefit. Around 38 per cent of respondents said they had been unable to heat their homes and 52 per cent struggled to stay healthy."

 

 

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ESA benefit cuts forced through by Tories on ‘black day for disabled people’

 

"But Lords in the upper chamber ran out of options after the Speaker of the Commons attached a “financial privilege” to the Bill. The privilege can be used by the Commons as grounds for overruling any Lords proposal that has a cost implication.

"This is a black day for disabled people,” warned the independent crossbencher Lord Low of Dalston, during the debate on Monday evening.

He added: “The Commons have spoken decisively and we must now bow to their wishes, but we do so under protest.” Lord Low also accused the government whips of “working overtime last Wednesday night in the House of Commons, going round handing out bribes and blandishments like there was no tomorrow”.

Research by the Disability Benefits Consortium suggests the low level of benefit is already failing to meet disabled people's needs.

A survey of 500 people in the affected group found that 28 per cent of people had been unable to afford to eat while in receipt of the the benefit. Around 38 per cent of respondents said they had been unable to heat their homes and 52 per cent struggled to stay healthy."

I decided to look up on the government website what people in the WRAG group were entitled to as the last paper I'm going to take as reliable is the Independent, which for years now has just been a lobby group for the left.

 

According to the government's website, the WRAG group at present receive £102.00 and this will reduce to £73.00, which is the same figure all claimants receive when first being assessed anyway, ie the first 13 weeks of a claim.  So in other words, if a claimant is assessed as WRAG - ie they are capable of working - then they will receive the same level of benefit as everyone else who is capable of working.  However, if someone is assessed as being so ill or disabled that there isn't considered to be a possibility of that person obtaining work, then they move into the Support group and receive £109.00 a week. 

 

In other words, those who are the most vulnerable - ie those who will never be able to support themselves financially - are still able to claim the higher rate of benefits within the ESA framework. 

 

Is the controversy here that people think that all those who may have a disability or health condition (ie who submit a claim for ESA) should be assessed as incapable of working?  From what I gather, those in the WRAG group of ESA claimants will simply be getting what the rest of us get who are considered to be capable of work. 

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Maybe if the Govt wasn't so generous with my taxes to pay for public sector pensions, there's be more for the less well off. Like that's going to happen!

 

Hundreds of thousands of public sector workers due to retire over the next two-and-a-half years will receive a £17,000 state pension boost as part of a Government "bail-out" from which private sector workers are excluded

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/public-sector-workers-to-recieve-17k-pension-boost---but-private/

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I decided to look up on the government website what people in the WRAG group were entitled to as the last paper I'm going to take as reliable is the Independent, which for years now has just been a lobby group for the left.

 

According to the government's website, the WRAG group at present receive £102.00 and this will reduce to £73.00, which is the same figure all claimants receive when first being assessed anyway, ie the first 13 weeks of a claim.  So in other words, if a claimant is assessed as WRAG - ie they are capable of working - then they will receive the same level of benefit as everyone else who is capable of working.  However, if someone is assessed as being so ill or disabled that there isn't considered to be a possibility of that person obtaining work, then they move into the Support group and receive £109.00 a week. 

 

In other words, those who are the most vulnerable - ie those who will never be able to support themselves financially - are still able to claim the higher rate of benefits within the ESA framework. 

 

Is the controversy here that people think that all those who may have a disability or health condition (ie who submit a claim for ESA) should be assessed as incapable of working?  From what I gather, those in the WRAG group of ESA claimants will simply be getting what the rest of us get who are considered to be capable of work. 

Are you serious?  Really?  Someone classed as disabled but fit to work will often have extra costs for finding work that that extra money is there to cover.  For example, they may not be able to drive or may have social issues that mean they can't use public transport or on of many, many other conditions that marks them as capable of work but still disabled and with extra costs.

 

By making those classed as disabled but fit for work fit into the same category as fully able people then you automatically add a disadvantage for job hunting.  £30 per week isn't exactly a luxury amount to provide a level playing field.

 

If you can't see that then I really despair.

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Maybe if the Govt wasn't so generous with my taxes to pay for public sector pensions, there's be more for the less well off. Like that's going to happen!

Hundreds of thousands of public sector workers due to retire over the next two-and-a-half years will receive a £17,000 state pension boost as part of a Government "bail-out" from which private sector workers are excluded

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/public-sector-workers-to-recieve-17k-pension-boost---but-private/

Don't you normally refer to this sort of thing as "the politics of envy"?

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Are you serious?  Really?  Someone classed as disabled but fit to work will often have extra costs for finding work that that extra money is there to cover.  For example, they may not be able to drive or may have social issues that mean they can't use public transport or on of many, many other conditions that marks them as capable of work but still disabled and with extra costs.

 

By making those classed as disabled but fit for work fit into the same category as fully able people then you automatically add a disadvantage for job hunting.  £30 per week isn't exactly a luxury amount to provide a level playing field.

 

If you can't see that then I really despair.

 

Moreover, it's vital to consider the difference between JSA claimants and ESA WRAG recipients. Indeed, if there was no difference there would be no need for the WRAG. The ESA work-related activity group is for claimants who the DWP consider will be capable of work at some time in the future and who are capable of taking steps towards moving into work (work-related activities) immediately. i.e NOT capable of work at this point in time but should be able to undertake some learning or personal development that moves them closer to work or undertake some form of therapeutic employment.

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When does this start?

 

Who does it apply to?

 

The cuts in weekly support from £103 to £73, contained in the Welfare Reform and Work Bill, will apply to new ESA claimants in the work-related activity group, bringing the rate into line with Jobseeker's Allowance.

It will affect people who are deemed unable to work at the moment but capable of making some effort to find employment, including attending work-focused interviews and taking part in training.

Ministers argue that too few people in the category are moving into work and that while the lower benefit rate would save £55m in the first year, £60m would be spent on supporting claimants to take steps towards finding work.

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Don't you normally refer to this sort of thing as "the politics of envy"?

 

 

or rather, it's socialist " you jack...I'm all right" claptrap

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Moreover, it's vital to consider the difference between JSA claimants and ESA WRAG recipients. Indeed, if there was no difference there would be no need for the WRAG. The ESA work-related activity group is for claimants who the DWP consider will be capable of work at some time in the future and who are capable of taking steps towards moving into work (work-related activities) immediately. i.e NOT capable of work at this point in time but should be able to undertake some learning or personal development that moves them closer to work or undertake some form of therapeutic employment.

Taking someone who thought they were incapable of work and making them capable can often restore a huge amount of pride to someone but it rarely comes without a cost.  For me, I'm happy for my taxes to pay our share of that cost.  To most in the Treasury and to IDS, it's all about the money, cutting the welfare bill and if people get hurt, well, they're not likely to be Tory voters are they?

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Taking someone who thought they were incapable of work and making them capable can often restore a huge amount of pride to someone but it rarely comes without a cost.  For me, I'm happy for my taxes to pay our share of that cost.  To most in the Treasury and to IDS, it's all about the money, cutting the welfare bill and if people get hurt, well, they're not likely to be Tory voters are they?

 

Absolutely. 

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Are you serious? Really? Someone classed as disabled but fit to work will often have extra costs for finding work that that extra money is there to cover. For example, they may not be able to drive or may have social issues that mean they can't use public transport or on of many, many other conditions that marks them as capable of work but still disabled and with extra costs.

By making those classed as disabled but fit for work fit into the same category as fully able people then you automatically add a disadvantage for job hunting. £30 per week isn't exactly a luxury amount to provide a level playing field.

If you can't see that then I really despair.

A lot of those people will also be getting some level of DLA/PIP payment too which is meant to cover those extra costs. DLA can be up to ~£140 per week and is not means tested or taken into account as income when being assessed for other benefits.

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A lot of those people will also be getting some level of DLA/PIP payment too which is meant to cover those extra costs. DLA can be up to ~£140 per week and is not means tested or taken into account as income when being assessed for other benefits.

 

What nonsense. If you are assessed at an ESA Work Capability Assessment and placed in the WRAG you are highly unlikely to be assessed positively for PIP. Indeed, there are many in the ESA Support Group who are not awarded PIP.

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What nonsense. If you are assessed at an ESA Work Capability Assessment and placed in the WRAG you are highly unlikely to be assessed positively for PIP. Indeed, there are many in the ESA Support Group who are not awarded PIP.

CKN was talking about people who are disabled. You are talking about people who have an illness or are temporarily incapacitated. Not the same thing.

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CKN was talking about people who are disabled. You are talking about people who have an illness or are temporarily incapacitated. Not the same thing.

So someone who has an illness like Parkinson's isn't also disabled?

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CKN was talking about people who are disabled. You are talking about people who have an illness or are temporarily incapacitated. Not the same thing.

PIP is about helping you live with your disability whether you work or not. I was very deliberate in my wording above. The ESA WRAG is for those who need help returning to work. Two different things altogether.

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CKN was talking about people who are disabled. You are talking about people who have an illness or are temporarily incapacitated. Not the same thing.

 

Under the Equality Act 2010 an illness or condition is considered a disability if it has a long-term effect on your normal day-to-day activity.

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So someone who has an illness like Parkinson's isn't also disabled?

Someone with a truly debilitating condition like Parkinson's will undoubtedly get DLA or PIP as it is a permanent condition.

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So someone who has an illness like Parkinson's isn't also disabled?

They can be but Parkinson's is a disease that can remain very restrained.  My uncle has it in one hand, and it hasn't progressed further.  He still drives and if he were still of working age he would be considered fit for work even though he has a recognised disabling disease.

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Are you serious?  Really?  Someone classed as disabled but fit to work will often have extra costs for finding work that that extra money is there to cover.  For example, they may not be able to drive or may have social issues that mean they can't use public transport or on of many, many other conditions that marks them as capable of work but still disabled and with extra costs.

 

By making those classed as disabled but fit for work fit into the same category as fully able people then you automatically add a disadvantage for job hunting.  £30 per week isn't exactly a luxury amount to provide a level playing field.

 

If you can't see that then I really despair.

With respect, I think you need to be less melodramatic in your responses to me.  I asked a perfectly valid question.

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On a low or average income? Need help with a deposit to buy your first home? You need the Help to Buy scheme!

Just like Peter Bone MP!

No doubt he voted for the reduction of benefit payments to the sick and disabled yesterday on the grounds the government needs to save money. What a , but no doubt one of the forum's resident Tory cheer leaders will be along in a minute to defend him. :dry:

Story here

Edited by Griff9of13

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No doubt he voted for the reduction of benefit payments to the sick and disabled yesterday on the grounds the government needs to save money. What a ######, but no doubt one of the forum's resident Tory cheer leaders will be along in a minute to defend him. :dry:

Story here

"there's no suggestion him and his wife have done anything wrong"

Go on, start typing "morally....."

So this is what you want, you're access to certain things should depend on how you voted? What a fine idea. Now let's see, we know Labour said they'd be tougher on those on welfare than the Tories, the delightful Rachel Reeves told us and we know that 9,347,304 voted Labour what rights do you want removed from these heartless swine. How many of these "people" kicked the poor and suffering then stuck their snouts in the trough and gorged themselves?

Probably the same number of people who voted to cut the ringfence on money for homeless people and hand it over to the fat cat bankers in 2009 and then bleat about how sorry they feel for homeless people.

Should I copy and paste this to the "spineless hypocrisy" thread?

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