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Those nice tories

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2 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Well if the Ukraine can have a comedian as a leader why can't we go one better and have a clown ?

Why do we need a clown? We've already got muppets. 


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1 hour ago, 17 stone giant said:

Having read the above, I have three questions of my own:

1) Are you saying that the questions are unanswerable?

2) If the questions are unanswerable, does that mean it's impossible for the UK to leave the EU, or can the UK still leave the EU, without answering the questions?

3) If it's not possible for the UK to leave the EU without answering the questions, and if nobody on planet earth can answer them, what was the point of having a referendum?

Thanks.

 

1. Far from it. The question is simple and easy to answer but it requires an honest acknowledgment of the constraints the UK is working under.  I would expect every serious commenter who supported Brexit to be able to answer it easily.

2. No, the UK cannot leave the EU without answering the question because leaving the EU in any way - even “no deal” - forces a real answer to the question to happen.   

3. Fk knows.   Don’t blame me for this mess.  It wasn’t my idea. 

 

For clarity, and because it’s been a while since we’ve been through this, the “question” is

a. Leave the single market and customs union

b. Uphold the commitments made in the Good Friday Agreement 

c. Maintain the integrity of the union between GB and Northern Ireland

You can pick any two of the three and you get a Brexit.   A Brexit with consequences which may well be very bad indeed, but you get a Brexit. 

But you cannot have all three.   That doesn’t exist.  It is impossible.  

The only other option available is remaining in the EU.

If you want Brexit, you have to choose two from the three and live with the consequences, whatever they may be.

So to the question itself.  Which of the two from three do you want and why? What do you think the consequences will be, and why do you think they will be outweighed by the benefits?

Simple.

As for me, if we must leave the EU, then my preference is that we maintain the integrity of the United Kingdom, uphold the Good Friday Agreement and stay in the Customs Union and Single Market.

That is the Brexit with the least damaging consequences.  It fulfils the wishes of the British people as expressed in the referendum. It is the closest outcome to the one the Leavers campaigned for. And it is an outcome that most Remainers - including me - could live with.  

Had the Leavers understood and accepted this, the UK would not be a member of EU right now.  

There are, of course, other aspects of Brexit but this really is Brexit 101.  It is fundamental.   If you want Brexit and you do not understand this question you need to read and think until you do. 

If you think I’m wrong about this question then that’s great.  I’m not trying to be clever here, I’m not trying to score points, I’m not trying to belittle anybody.

If I’m wrong I would really love to know how and why so I can think about it. I might even change my mind on the whole question of Brexit itself. 

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English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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9 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

I'm genuinely not trying to appear awkward here, but saying that something "will be an issue" doesn't really mean very much.

You really need to explain in more detail how much of an issue it will be, and what the impact of it will be.

If eventually we don't come out the Brexiteers won't go away and if we do the Remainers won't go away. One side or the other will be agitating to reverse whatever the result turns out to be. This will be a running sore for the UK for the foreseeable future.

Edited by Tyrone Shoelaces

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2 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

If eventually we don't come out the Brexiteers won't go away and if we do the Remainers won't go away. One side or the other will be agitating to reverse whatever the result turns out to be. This will be a running sore for the UK for the foreseeable future.

I agree.  I suspect few people have an exact realistic view of what they want, so are unlikely to get it. 

That does not mean they are thick, it means Remain has a default scenario and deal whereas Leave does not.  Anyone who thinks that suggests Leavers are thick is being an idiot. 


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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29 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

I agree.  I suspect few people have an exact realistic view of what they want, so are unlikely to get it. 

That does not mean they are thick, it means Remain has a default scenario and deal whereas Leave does not.  Anyone who thinks that suggests Leavers are thick is being an idiot. 

Far be it for me to praise a Tory but David Gaulk has a good article on Brexit in today's " Sunday Observer ".

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With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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10 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Far be it for me to praise a Tory but David Gaulk has a good article on Brexit in today's " Sunday Observer ".

 


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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Raab is promising tax cuts.  To be paid for by savings from government departments.  Does anybody believe these savings are there anymore?


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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46 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

 

This is just utter bull.  

We have to move away from this kind of nonsense.  

We desperately need an honest assessment of what is and what is not possible.  

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English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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27 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

Raab is promising tax cuts.  To be paid for by savings from government departments.  Does anybody believe these savings are there anymore?

Only in the way that you can successfully lose weight by chopping off an arm.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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49 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

 

Excellent article.  A must read imo. 


English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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4 minutes ago, Steve May said:

We desperately need an honest assessment of what is and what is not possible.  

Pretty much what Gauke and Stewart have been saying.  Which is why neither will be in the cabinet much longer, and why Stewart is unlikely to win.  

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With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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4 minutes ago, Griff9of13 said:

Only in the way that you can successfully lose weight by chopping off an arm.

Hammond was on straight after and pretty much rubbished all Raab's plans.  Team leave hate Hammond though so it will have no impact.  


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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12 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

Hammond was on straight after and pretty much rubbished all Raab's plans.  Team leave hate Hammond though so it will have no impact.  

Yes, that's what being a realist gets you.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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1 hour ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

Raab is promising tax cuts.  To be paid for by savings from government departments.  Does anybody believe these savings are there anymore?

Tax cuts ! That's all they know. You and I get about £2 a week extra and the fat cats get £100's. When all you have is a hammer every problem is a nail.

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1 hour ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

Raab is promising tax cuts.  To be paid for by savings from government departments.  Does anybody believe these savings are there anymore?

Well they could cut the police some more and have more knife crime.  Perhaps the increase in demand for knives will save the steel industry too.  Win, win!

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“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

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1 hour ago, Steve May said:

This is just utter bull.  

We have to move away from this kind of nonsense.  

We desperately need an honest assessment of what is and what is not possible.  

Actually it is not impossible it just leads to another questions (choice of 2 from 3 again)

Time budget , £ budget or features

So if you are willing to have a very long transition with us ties to CU & SM in the meantime then given enough money it is possible

If you want it quicker then the money goes up explanentally as timescale shrinks

Or you leave out features - but as the main ones of these are set in stone if you want an "invisible border" this one is least moveable

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2 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Far be it for me to praise a Tory but David Gaulk has a good article on Brexit in today's " Sunday Observer ".

Says it all that he's writing for a left wing paper.

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1 hour ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Tax cuts ! That's all they know. You and I get about £2 a week extra and the fat cats get £100's. When all you have is a hammer every problem is a nail.

Tax cuts are traditional Tory fare.  We've effectively been having them for years though with the rise in income tax threshold.  That was just for the very poor, though, so to many leftwingers it doesn't seem to count!

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51 minutes ago, Trojan said:

Well they could cut the police some more and have more knife crime.  Perhaps the increase in demand for knives will save the steel industry too.  Win, win!

We could cut the fire brigade further, might help the house building and renovations industry as well!  (Damn, done this, can’t cut much further.)

We don’t really need a military, after all, we just need to remind the fuzzy-wuzzies that we’re GREAT Britain and they’ll back down.  And we’ve got two nice new carriers we can sell off to one of our mates.  (What do you mean we’ve done the first part already?)

If we cut disability care provision then we save two ways, first the cost of benefits and second they’ll die quicker so we don’t even have to care for them.  (Oh, right, we’ve already done most of this.)

We’ll cut social work to one guy called Dave covering all of the UK.  And he’ll be to blame if anything is missed that results in neglect.  (Are you sure? Dave was made redundant last year?)

The NHS? We can fix mental health by getting the local Women’s Institute to go round the wards telling people to snap out of it and “my Bert (born 1952) wouldn’t have put up with this in the Great War!”  Physical health? Turn it to insurance only, after all everyone can afford the typical US premium of £1200 per family per month, can’t they?  If they don’t then that’s their fault for being lazy.

It’s easy to cut costs in government if you just adopt the Hard-Brexiter scorched earth attitude. That’ll suit that loon Raab quite well then.

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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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1 minute ago, Saintslass said:

Tax cuts are traditional Tory fare.  We've effectively been having them for years though with the rise in income tax threshold.  That was just for the very poor, though, so to many leftwingers it doesn't seem to count!

No... you miss the point.

If I raise the lower threshold then that gives a tax cut to everyone under £100k (or so).  Then there’s the 40% tax bracket that kicks in at a higher income with that meaning people who earn more pay less (tax threshold tax cut plus reduced tax from the 40% bracket).

Effectively, if you’re a higher rate taxpayer then your marginal tax cut is 40% of the amount the tax allowance is increased, if you’re a basic rate taxpayer then it’s 20%.  Not quite so fair now is it?

Then you get the government’s plans to 2023/24 of increasing the allowance by £2200 and the basic rate by £6000.  For someone on, say, £20,000/year, that’s a tax cut of 20% of that £2200 (£440).  For someone on £60,000, that’s 40% of £2200 (£880) and 20% of £6000 (£1200) for a total tax cut of £2080.  

Y’see how it’s all smoke and mirrors to get people like you happy but give overwhelmingly disproportionate tax cuts for those who least need them.

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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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11 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

Tax cuts are traditional Tory fare.  We've effectively been having them for years though with the rise in income tax threshold.  That was just for the very poor, though, so to many leftwingers it doesn't seem to count!

It wasn't just for the very poor, it was for everybody. In fact, the rich gain more.

Assume the tax-free allowance is increased by £1000. Someone earning, say £15000, gains 20% of £1000. Someone on £100000 gains 40% of £1000. These are rough figures, the rich guy gains twice as much as the poor guy.

PS. ckn beat me to it.


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12 minutes ago, ckn said:

No... you miss the point.

If I raise the lower threshold then that gives a tax cut to everyone under £100k (or so).  Then there’s the 40% tax bracket that kicks in at a higher income with that meaning people who earn more pay less (tax threshold tax cut plus reduced tax from the 40% bracket).

Effectively, if you’re a higher rate taxpayer then your marginal tax cut is 40% of the amount the tax allowance is increased, if you’re a basic rate taxpayer then it’s 20%.  Not quite so fair now is it?

Then you get the government’s plans to 2023/24 of increasing the allowance by £2200 and the basic rate by £6000.  For someone on, say, £20,000/year, that’s a tax cut of 20% of that £2200 (£440).  For someone on £60,000, that’s 40% of £2200 (£880) and 20% of £6000 (£1200) for a total tax cut of £2080.  

Y’see how it’s all smoke and mirrors to get people like you happy but give overwhelmingly disproportionate tax cuts for those who least need them.

To me, raising the threshold has meant that more people at the lower end of the pay scale have been taken out of income tax completely, thus allowing more of their low wages to go towards what they want or need it to go towards rather than to HMRC.  I know that as a low earner myself I have really felt the benefit of those rises in income tax threshold so I speak from experience rather than ideology, as you appear to be doing (although you didn't really address the tax threshold thing; you seemed to be talking more about tax cuts and the rich).  That rise in tax threshold may mean little to yourself but to someone on a low wage it is hugely significant.

  

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16 minutes ago, tonyXIII said:

It wasn't just for the very poor, it was for everybody. In fact, the rich gain more.

Assume the tax-free allowance is increased by £1000. Someone earning, say £15000, gains 20% of £1000. Someone on £100000 gains 40% of £1000. These are rough figures, the rich guy gains twice as much as the poor guy.

PS. ckn beat me to it.

Does it work like that?  You are taxed on the money you earn above the threshold.  It isn't a tax saving scheme.  So yes, a person earning £50,000 (which to me makes them rich) will now have a smaller taxable income than they did before the threshold rose.  But someone earning £20,000 will also have a smaller taxable income, but because the gross income was not particularly big to start with, the reduction in taxable income has a greater impact for someone on £20,000 than it does on someone earning £50,000.

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54 minutes ago, SSoutherner said:

Actually it is not impossible it just leads to another questions (choice of 2 from 3 again)

Time budget , £ budget or features

So if you are willing to have a very long transition with us ties to CU & SM in the meantime then given enough money it is possible

If you want it quicker then the money goes up explanentally as timescale shrinks

Or you leave out features - but as the main ones of these are set in stone if you want an "invisible border" this one is least moveable

True enough.    But also remember this this solution needs to operate safely and accurately in an area that the British Army had to fly in and out of in helicopters because they weren’t safe travelling on the ground, amongst locals who would really rather it wasn’t there at all - a significant proportion of whom will be motivated to sabotage it.

And it needs to work less than five months from now.

Given a decade, tens of billions of pounds, sympathetic locals, and a streak of good luck, it might work.

In the absence of all that, it’s just another unicorn   

 


English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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