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Those nice tories

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44 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

Tax cuts are traditional Tory fare.  We've effectively been having them for years though with the rise in income tax threshold.  That was just for the very poor, though, so to many leftwingers it doesn't seem to count!

Should a working man/woman be in the very poor bracket in 2019

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Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

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19 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

To me, raising the threshold has meant that more people at the lower end of the pay scale have been taken out of income tax completely, thus allowing more of their low wages to go towards what they want or need it to go towards rather than to HMRC.  I know that as a low earner myself I have really felt the benefit of those rises in income tax threshold so I speak from experience rather than ideology, as you appear to be doing (although you didn't really address the tax threshold thing; you seemed to be talking more about tax cuts and the rich).  That rise in tax threshold may mean little to yourself but to someone on a low wage it is hugely significant.

  

Then your gas, electric and other services go up, so you end up giving your little tax break to the rich and not really spending it on what you like.


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

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22 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Should a working man/woman be in the very poor bracket in 2019

There will always be very poor people.  That will never change.  There will always be relatively poor people (of which I am one) and that will never change.  It is naïve at best to think that everyone should be or ever will be rich or even well off.  The world just never works like that, regardless of the system in operation.  That doesn't mean opportunity to improve your position shouldn't exist, which is what real Tories believe in, but it is simply stating a fact: poverty will always exist because not everyone will have the ability or desire or opportunity or whatever to become well off.  Besides, there is more to life that having loads of dosh.

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19 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Then your gas, electric and other services go up, so you end up giving your little tax break to the rich and not really spending it on what you like.

Firstly, I said what is needed or wanted, not just what is wanted.  Services may well go up in price but at the very least, the tax threshold leaving more cash in the bank means a poorer person is no worse off if services do go up in price.  And services would go up in price whoever owned the companies.  We would do well to eliminate the 'green charges' that add to people's services bills.  They would go down then.

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1 minute ago, Saintslass said:

There will always be very poor people.  That will never change.  There will always be relatively poor people (of which I am one) and that will never change.  It is naïve at best to think that everyone should be or ever will be rich or even well off.  The world just never works like that, regardless of the system in operation.  That doesn't mean opportunity to improve your position shouldn't exist, which is what real Tories believe in, but it is simply stating a fact: poverty will always exist because not everyone will have the ability or desire or opportunity or whatever to become well off.  Besides, there is more to life that having loads of dosh.

And that’s where Labour (other parties with similar views are available) differs from the Tories.  I see there is a way to remove poverty, and it wouldn’t take too much beyond some progressive taxation, even a return to 2010’s rates would see us with a serious surplus of government revenue.  I have nothing against those who can make a good living earning lots of money, but when it gets into obscene territory while they’re still bleating about “tax burdens” then that’s when they need to learn to shut up.

I’m a solid believer in the universal minimum income policy that’s being experimented with in the more progressive countries. 

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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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1 minute ago, ckn said:

And that’s where Labour (other parties with similar views are available) differs from the Tories.  I see there is a way to remove poverty, and it wouldn’t take too much beyond some progressive taxation, even a return to 2010’s rates would see us with a serious surplus of government revenue.  I have nothing against those who can make a good living earning lots of money, but when it gets into obscene territory while they’re still bleating about “tax burdens” then that’s when they need to learn to shut up.

I’m a solid believer in the universal minimum income policy that’s being experimented with in the more progressive countries. 

For me, allowing people to become successful in business creates jobs that helps people find work and therefore impacts positively on their income.  Of course those entrepreneurs may then become rich.  Good luck to them I say.  Big business awarding massive pay outs to failed chairmen doesn't sit well with me but I'm not in favour of capping pay.  Doing that is surely the role of board members or shareholders.  That is too socialist for me.  

It is good that there are different ways of approaching tackling poverty (among other things).  That means the electorate have a choice.  Unfortunately the Tories of late have tried to become Labour lite, and have done so in an authoritarian manner, which is one reason why I have been unable to vote for them.  Until they return to core Tory principles I will find it hard to support the party but hopefully a real Tory will emerge from the growing group of no-hopers … sorry hopefuls  in this leadership campaign.

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9 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

There will always be very poor people.  That will never change.  There will always be relatively poor people (of which I am one) and that will never change.  It is naïve at best to think that everyone should be or ever will be rich or even well off.  The world just never works like that, regardless of the system in operation.  That doesn't mean opportunity to improve your position shouldn't exist, which is what real Tories believe in, but it is simply stating a fact: poverty will always exist because not everyone will have the ability or desire or opportunity or whatever to become well off.  Besides, there is more to life that having loads of dosh.

 

12 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

Firstly, I said what is needed or wanted, not just what is wanted.  Services may well go up in price but at the very least, the tax threshold leaving more cash in the bank means a poorer person is no worse off if services do go up in price.  And services would go up in price whoever owned the companies.  We would do well to eliminate the 'green charges' that add to people's services bills.  They would go down then.

Of course they are worse off, you never see a new policy that takes a penny from the elite but the VERY poor are always being hit, the reason prices keep going up is greed as for a green charge, shouldn't the provider be delivering a cleaner service/product.


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

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1 hour ago, Steve May said:

True enough.    But also remember this this solution needs to operate safely and accurately in an area that the British Army had to fly in and out of in helicopters because they weren’t safe travelling on the ground, amongst locals who would really rather it wasn’t there at all - a significant proportion of whom will be motivated to sabotage it.

And it needs to work less than five months from now.

Given a decade, tens of billions of pounds, sympathetic locals, and a streak of good luck, it might work.

In the absence of all that, it’s just another unicorn   

 

Your 5 mths gives the incredibly high (impossibly high) budget that would be needed - I was saying if they were honest and said "we can leave in Oct but due to the GFA & Backstop it iwll be 10 years until we are in the correct place to be able to have a tech enable invisible border then it mght be possiible

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27 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 as for a green charge, shouldn't the provider be delivering a cleaner service/product.

They should but not at our expense.  

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I can't see why so many problems are being put in the way of leaving, how did countries like Poland, Latvia, & Croatia manage when they became self governed 

2 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

They should but not at our expense.  

 Can't see the greedy picking up the bill.


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

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8 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I can't see why so many problems are being put in the way of leaving, how did countries like Poland, Latvia, & Croatia manage when they became self governed 

 Can't see the greedy picking up the bill.

We are self-governed. 

One of the first things the self-governing countries you mention did was join the EU. Others such as Ukraine and Serbia did not. 


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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8 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

We are self-governed. 

One of the first things the self-governing countries you mention did was join the EU. Others such as Ukraine and Serbia did not. 

We shouldn't have a problem then.


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

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11 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I can't see why so many problems are being put in the way of leaving, how did countries like Poland, Latvia, & Croatia manage when they became self governed 

Poland was an independent nation, albeit a staggeringly badly run one trapped under the influence of the Soviet Union.  Nonetheless after the fall of communism its economy contracted by 15% in two years.  Poland joined the EU at the earliest opportunity in 2004. 

Latvia was inside the Soviet Union.  When it achieved independence from the Soviet Union, the life expectancy of Latvians very quickly fell by about six years.   Latvia joined the EU at the earliest opportunity in 2004 on the same day as Poland.

Croatia fought a bitter war for independence in which around 40,000 people were killed and half a million were displaced.   Croatia joined the EU at the earliest opportunity in 2013

I think you might want to find more encouraging examples of countries seeking independence.   Preferably ones that didn’t immediately join the EU as soon as they could. 


English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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Anyway.  Back on to the topic of the Tories ...

I really don't know who to vote for in the upcoming leader elections.  Obviously I won't have the options available at the moment as MPs will whittle the choice down to two candidates.  But at present not even one candidate stands out for me.  One thing I have decided though is I could not vote for Boris Johnson.  Two years ago I would have done; but not now.  There is something about him I don't trust anymore.  I think he will get into power and backtrack.  And I don't just mean on Brexit.

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20 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

We are self-governed. 

One of the first things the self-governing countries you mention did was join the EU. Others such as Ukraine and Serbia did not. 

Interestingly, though I dont know the detailed story behind it, from the same starting position in Yugoslavia, Croatia (in the EU) now has a GDP per capita roughly twice that of Serbia (not in the EU)

Serbia is trying to join the EU

 

Edited by Steve May

English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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2 minutes ago, Steve May said:

Poland was an independent nation, albeit a staggeringly badly run one trapped under the influence of the Soviet Union.  Nonetheless after the fall of communism its economy contracted by 15% in two years.  Poland joined the EU at the earliest opportunity in 2004. 

Latvia was inside the Soviet Union.  When it achieved independence from the Soviet Union, the life expectancy of Latvians very quickly fell by about six years.   Latvia joined the EU at the earliest opportunity in 2004 on the same day as Poland.

Croatia fought a bitter war for independence in which around 40,000 people were killed and half a million were displaced.   Croatia joined the EU at the earliest opportunity in 2013

I think you might want to find more encouraging examples of countries seeking independence.   Preferably ones that didn’t immediately join the EU as soon as they could. 

Look at the sh it they where in and survived, I'm sure we'll do ok in the big cold world.


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

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5 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Look at the sh it they where in and survived, I'm sure we'll do ok in the big cold world.

Indeed. 

Do you think most people talking about how tough and resilient they are actually are as tough and up for it as they say?

 I suspect you are, but it is rare. 

It might well be worth it. Specifically, and reality based, what would that gain be in your view?

 I will accept your emotional gratification as a valid answer. 

Edited by Bob8

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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1 hour ago, Saintslass said:

Does it work like that?  You are taxed on the money you earn above the threshold.  It isn't a tax saving scheme.  So yes, a person earning £50,000 (which to me makes them rich) will now have a smaller taxable income than they did before the threshold rose.  But someone earning £20,000 will also have a smaller taxable income, but because the gross income was not particularly big to start with, the reduction in taxable income has a greater impact for someone on £20,000 than it does on someone earning £50,000.

Yes, it does work like that. Your tax liability is reduced by the amount of the increase in tax-free allowance charged at the top rate of tax that you pay. If the increase in allowance is £1000, a person paying a top rate of 0% gets £1000x0%=£0.00. A person paying a top rate of 20% gets £1000x20%=£200.00. A person paying a top rate of 40% gets £1000x40%=£400.00.

It really does work like that and it really is simple.


Rethymno Rugby League Appreciation Society

Founder (and, so far, only) member.

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5 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Look at the sh it they where in and survived, I'm sure we'll do ok in the big cold world.

Assuming we follow your examples...

Best case scenario, we suffer a drop in life expectancy unlike any seen in this country for two hundred years and a recession twice as long and twice as deep as 2008.

And then we rejoin the EU.  

Sounds like a great plan.

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English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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8 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

Indeed. 

Do you think most people talking about how tough and resilient they are actually are as tough and up for it as they say?

 I suspect you are, but it is rare. 

 

I’ll be honest, I’m really, really not up for it.  

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English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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Bit of top trolling from Ed Milliband with his new Twitter handle.

Screenshot_20190526-173729.thumb.png.b83c58397be081851c218f4c62a9aeb5.png

:kolobok_biggrin:

Edited by Griff9of13
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"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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4 hours ago, Saintslass said:

Tax cuts are traditional Tory fare.  We've effectively been having them for years though with the rise in income tax threshold.  That was just for the very poor, though, so to many leftwingers it doesn't seem to count!

I don't want tax cuts, I want services worthy of the name. If I have to pay more in tax to finance them so be it. A civilised society doesn't come cheap.

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1 hour ago, Steve May said:

Assuming we follow your examples...

Best case scenario, we suffer a drop in life expectancy unlike any seen in this country for two hundred years and a recession twice as long and twice as deep as 2008.

And then we rejoin the EU.  

Sounds like a great plan.

And we'll be rejoining on worse terms than we have now.

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1 hour ago, Saintslass said:

Anyway.  Back on to the topic of the Tories ...

I really don't know who to vote for in the upcoming leader elections.  Obviously I won't have the options available at the moment as MPs will whittle the choice down to two candidates.  But at present not even one candidate stands out for me.  One thing I have decided though is I could not vote for Boris Johnson.  Two years ago I would have done; but not now.  There is something about him I don't trust anymore.  I think he will get into power and backtrack.  And I don't just mean on Brexit.

I think you're right regarding Boris back tracking. He's completely shameless so it wouldn't be a problem. I think we all know he only came out for " Leave " more or less on the toss of a coin.

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