Market it and they will come

[The Parksider]

It's interesting to note that Gary Hetherington joined Leeds in 1996. From that date through to their first Superleague crown Hetherington doubled attendances from 8,500 to 17,000 by 2005. Sure Leeds had managed attendances of 12,000 before that as early as 1989, but this was an impressive performance nonetheless.

 

After that breakthrough SL win Leeds could not stop winning. Nine Superleague and Challenge cup wins in all up to a treble last year.

 

And yet the Crowds for 2015 were down on the 17,000 of 2005. Ten years of winning trophies and the result was less fans. Hetherington should have been sacked

 

But it is interesting to note his commercial department.

 

Mr. Oates is his commercial director,

 

Mr. Jenkinson heads commercial with his team messrs Linden, Yorke & Ramsdale

Mr. Bentley heads business development with his team Griffin, Wright, Barr & Thompson

Marketing is Ms. Furness in charge with Messrs Dunlop, Ward, Halliley & Adams

P & R is Mr. Daley with messrs Flynn & Phillis

Customer experience is Ms. Jones with the team Brock, Johnson, Ives and Grannan

 

So he has a 22 persons team beavering away to find the fans, sell them the club. and keep them happy and turning up.

 

I don't think they are all useless and should all be replaced despite Leeds crowds dropping by 12% against a general drop of under 3% over the last 10 years.

 

ANYWAY

 

What got you into the game? was it Family? Friends? Telly exposure? Other media like the national or local rag? The profile of the game in your community? a response to pure marketing? a visit on a company "do", a personal preference for the sport? Playing at School? your mates or family playing amateur, a local promotion from people at your local club? Your kids getting interested? or any other ways??

.

Why do you think Leeds crowds didn't just carry on rising on the graph in Hetherington's office?

[Dave T]

Of course had you started this in 2002 uou could have easily gone down the route of thinking 12.3k was the peak and dismiss marketing efforts to grow.

[GeordieSaint]

Why write a few words when you can use 1000... Clubs like Salford will always struggle for crowds until they start to win things and consistently.

[Oxford]

It's interesting to note that Gary Hetherington joined Leeds in 1996. From that date through to their first Superleague crown Hetherington doubled attendances from 8,500 to 17,000 by 2005. Sure Leeds had managed attendances of 12,000 before that as early as 1989, but this was an impressive performance nonetheless.

 

After that breakthrough SL win Leeds could not stop winning. Nine Superleague and Challenge cup wins in all up to a treble last year.

 

And yet the Crowds for 2015 were down on the 17,000 of 2005. Ten years of winning trophies and the result was less fans. Hetherington should have been sacked

 

But it is interesting to note his commercial department.

 

Mr. Oates is his commercial director,

 

Mr. Jenkinson heads commercial with his team messrs Linden, Yorke & Ramsdale

Mr. Bentley heads business development with his team Griffin, Wright, Barr & Thompson

Marketing is Ms. Furness in charge with Messrs Dunlop, Ward, Halliley & Adams

P & R is Mr. Daley with messrs Flynn & Phillis

Customer experience is Ms. Jones with the team Brock, Johnson, Ives and Grannan

 

So he has a 22 persons team beavering away to find the fans, sell them the club. and keep them happy and turning up.

 

I don't think they are all useless and should all be replaced despite Leeds crowds dropping by 12% against a general drop of under 3% over the last 10 years.

 

ANYWAY

 

What got you into the game? was it Family? Friends? Telly exposure? Other media like the national or local rag? The profile of the game in your community? a response to pure marketing? a visit on a company "do", a personal preference for the sport? Playing at School? your mates or family playing amateur, a local promotion from people at your local club? Your kids getting interested? or any other ways??

.

Why do you think Leeds crowds didn't just carry on rising on the graph in Hetherington's office?

That was a loong preamble to the questions Parky.

 

What got me into the game?Family, Telly exposure, school and the local rag. But mostly success. I also got the feeling that whoever we were playing we had a chance of winning! Whereas today, this funny season apart, I feel that there are a few teams that will win no matter what and some are doomed to languish.

 

Leeds experience shows that even loads of winning has a saturation level.

 

And anyway didn't you say marketing has little effect on another thread?

[DoubleD]

What is the point of this thread?

[GeordieSaint]

What is the point of this thread?

For Parky to write another essay...

[Oxford]

What is the point of this thread?

 

For Parky to write another essay...

Come on guys, what got you into the game?

 

It is still a legitimate question, even if it had come at the end of "War and Peace".

 

I also meant to say, not the game itself, because like any new sporting experience the initial few games are like a puzzle you have to sort out before you begin to enjoy, much like beer.

[M j M]

Leeds might have a lot of people working in selling the club but they seem to specialise in preaching to the converted. For all the good work done running the place where is the marketing at new fans as opposed to the very good engagement with existing ones?

This is the difference between Hetherington-era Leeds and the step change seen at Bradford in 96/97. Leeds crowds drifted up as the club became more successful. Bradford leveraged on field success into a doubling or trebling of crowds within a couple of years. They were mostly new people engaged by the Bulls. That's the missing bit of magic that eludes almost every club in the game.

(BTW Parksider listing Leeds ticket office staff doesn't really help and if he'd selected 1994/95 as the starting point rather than 1996 for his comparison the impression given would have been utterly different and more of a reflection of the evolution of Leeds crowds).

[Blind side johnny]

What is the point of this thread?

 

 

Maybe to question the future viability of RL in this country.

 

I'm old enough to recall when RL supporters would chuckle at the spectacle of RU club games being watched by a few hundred with a couple of notable exceptions - kick and clap, two men and a dog etc. No one would ever watch that rubbish except the old school tie brigade and their chums. Now I look with dismay at the attendances for SL games and compare them with those for RU premiership matches and see that we are being left further and further behind. Their game hasn't improved but the concept of an occasion certainly has - they have marketed a concept, with the enthusiastic support of the media, and have done it exceptionally well. Our leadership and visionaries have consistently failed to grasp what will attract new followers to any sport in the 21st century and what strategy is required to achieve that. And before anyone starts, it is nothing to do with P&R, it is about the entire image and vision of the game.

 

Back to Parky's original post, read the article about Wasps in a recent copy of 40/20. They decided to move out of London where they had a decent following, but nothing special. They identified Coventry as having potential so moved to the Ricoh, which they later acquired. When they relocated they hoped to retain 1000 season ticket holders at best, so would need to market and promote the "package" of attending events at their stadium. They now have 20,000 season ticket holders. How can they achieve this and Leeds "fail" to grow? the answers are obvious, the solutions less so.

[Lobbygobbler]

Leeds might have a lot of people working in selling the club but they seem to specialise in preaching to the converted. For all the good work done running the place where is the marketing at new fans as opposed to the very good engagement with existing ones?

This is the difference between Hetherington-era Leeds and the step change seen at Bradford in 96/97. Leeds crowds drifted up as the club became more successful. Bradford leveraged on field success into a doubling or trebling of crowds within a couple of years. They were mostly new people engaged by the Bulls. That's the missing bit of magic that eludes almost every club in the game.

(BTW Parksider listing Leeds ticket office staff doesn't really help and if he'd selected 1994/95 as the starting point rather than 1996 for his comparison the impression given would have been utterly different and more of a reflection of the evolution of Leeds crowds).

Perhaps the Bulls crowds were built "on sand" whilst Leeds will be more concrete?

[DoubleD]

Maybe to question the future viability of RL in this country.

I'm old enough to recall when RL supporters would chuckle at the spectacle of RU club games being watched by a few hundred with a couple of notable exceptions - kick and clap, two men and a dog etc. No one would ever watch that rubbish except the old school tie brigade and their chums. Now I look with dismay at the attendances for SL games and compare them with those for RU premiership matches and see that we are being left further and further behind. Their game hasn't improved but the concept of an occasion certainly has - they have marketed a concept, with the enthusiastic support of the media, and have done it exceptionally well. Our leadership and visionaries have consistently failed to grasp what will attract new followers to any sport in the 21st century and what strategy is required to achieve that. And before anyone starts, it is nothing to do with P&R, it is about the entire image and vision of the game.

Back to Parky's original post, read the article about Wasps in a recent copy of 40/20. They decided to move out of London where they had a decent following, but nothing special. They identified Coventry as having potential so moved to the Ricoh, which they later acquired. When they relocated they hoped to retain 1000 season ticket holders at best, so would need to market and promote the "package" of attending events at their stadium. They now have 20,000 season ticket holders. How can they achieve this and Leeds "fail" to grow? the answers are obvious, the solutions less so.

Wasps have 20k season ticket holders my @rse. I'm guessing you work in the RFU media department coming out with figures like that?

[Oxford]

Maybe to question the future viability of RL in this country.

 

I'm old enough to recall ........... Our leadership and visionaries . And before anyone starts, it is nothing to do with P&R, it is about the entire image and vision of the game.

 

 read the article about Wasps in a recent copy of 40/20. ...................How can they achieve this and Leeds "fail" to grow? the answers are obvious, the solutions less so.

Maybe to question viability but the message is the same every time.

 

Old enough to recall when we had visionaries?  What was it like in the George at that meeting?

 

And of course it has nothing to do with P- R nor the 3x8's the other theme in waiting.

 

40/20 had an article about Wasps? Do you think this might be part of the problem? Showing how well your neighbours are doing makes you feel wonderful doesn't it? Contrasting it with your own poorer prefomance really enhances your sense of morale. And do you imagine there are articles in "yawnion universe" praising RL? If wasps have managed to do this then right there is the solution about how to go about it, the model has been provided.There is an interesting contrast 40/20 can discuss ru and here on the forum well..........

 

Here's a game for everyone, You can do this with your favourite RL paper or magazine count the negative and positive articles and see what kind of numbers you come up with.

 

Or it could all just be a bit of name dropping by Parky after his night out with Russell Crowe!

[Dave T]

If we are not growing then we are not doing the right things, unless you genuinely believe this is the strongest RL will ever be. Personally I believe we are not at that ceiling. Nowhere near.

Its quite simple, we should always be aiming to grow, yet I see little real evidence of aggressive growth strategies from clubs or the governing body.

Possibly only the RLWC is the one that gives me hope.

[redjonn]

Actually believing we are the "greatest" game is part of the problem, me thinks.

[Dave T]

Actually believing we are the "greatest" game is part of the problem, me thinks.

believing that is enough to attract everyone most certainly is.

I strongly believe the quality if the sport is some way down the list of importance when selling out games and events.

[Tommygilf]

As for the OP, I was first introduced to the game through family, although I know my dad didn't go to watch rugby until his friend introduced him to it.

Interestingly as well (in terms of how to grow the game) I was introduced to other sports, such as RU and Cricket through school and I'd hope that the RFL is looking at ways to bring Rugby league into the curriculum (particularly as RL is far simpler than RU or cricket to explain to novices).

[DoubleD]

Maybe to question viability but the message is the same every time.

Or it could all just be a bit of name dropping by Parky after his night out with Russell Crowe!

I feel sorry for Russell Crowe if he had to endure that

[Oxford]

You can look at what someone else has done and see what can be taken from it without being worried about it or obsessed. In this case it shows that you can get crowds to a sports team, even if they have moved miles to get there. IF it is done right and the relevant groundwork done.

I think I made the same point Johnoco just a little bit further on........ and any time someone says something  about this they're accused of being obsessed. Yes they are obsessed, about TGG!

 

As for the OP, I was first introduced to the game through family, although I know my dad didn't go to watch rugby until his friend introduced him to it.

Interestingly as well (in terms of how to grow the game) I was introduced to other sports, such as RU and Cricket through school and I'd hope that the RFL is looking at ways to bring Rugby league into the curriculum (particularly as RL is far simpler than RU or cricket to explain to novices).

Concentraing on Primary Schools would be a step forward there!

 

The OP could be a red herring or it might be a "Look, no one got into the game because of marketing!"

 

In any event times change, image is not something it is the only thing and as far as I'm aware we don't have anyone dealing with this.

 

The case for the defence is Marketing teams work very hard, but marketing doesn't put bums on seats, and isn't the answer to all the ills of RL, in a nutshell.

 

It is unlikely that any sport has been so hidden, abused, derided or stereotyped as much as RL and that is the issue we need to answer, how to overcome all of this and the negativity within the game itself. We have friends and enemies alike who are all too willing to run the game down. As someone pointed out somewhere else a quick listen to RL Extra or a look at Backchat will confirm this, never mind RL journals.

[Tommygilf]

I think I made the same point Johnoco just a little bit further on........ and any time someone says something about this they're accused of being obsessed. Yes they are obsessed, about TGG!

Concentraing on Primary Schools would be a step forward there!

The OP could be a red herring or it might be a "Look, no one got into the game because of marketing!"

In any event times change, image is not something it is the only thing and as far as I'm aware we don't have anyone dealing with this.

The case for the defence is Marketing teams work very hard, but marketing doesn't put bums on seats, and isn't the answer to all the ills of RL, in a nutshell.

It is unlikely that any sport has been so hidden, abused, derided or stereotyped as much as RL and that is the issue we need to answer, how to overcome all of this and the negativity within the game itself. We have friends and enemies alike who are all to willing to run the game down. As someone pointed out somewhere else a quick listen to RL Extra or a look at Backchat will confirm this, never mind RL journals.

True, in which case I only got into the idea of the magic weekend, the grand final and even Wembley CC Final through marketing ploys and advertisement.

[damp squib]

Out of curiosity I attended the 2013 RLWC game between Ireland and Australia in a 3/4 empty Thomond Park in Limerick in a torrential downpour where we were trounced 50-0 and the stadium ran out of beer. Almost a year later I happened to switch over to the BBC where I watched Warrington hammer a dismal Bradford in a weird run down stadium with upward sloping corners.

 

Now I have nearly 1400 posts on a RL internet forum and will be flying out to Perpignan in a couple of weeks to watch Catalans. How I got here from being drenched, sober and miserable in Limerick I have no idea, but I guess that's Rugby League for you.

[Oxford]

Out of curiosity I attended the 2013 RLWC game between Ireland and Australia in a 3/4 empty Thomond Park in Limerick in a torrential downpour where we were trounced 50-0 and the stadium ran out of beer. Almost a year later I happened to switch over to the BBC where I watched Warrington hammer a dismal Bradford in a weird run down stadium with upward sloping corners.

 

Now I have nearly 1400 posts on a RL internet forum and will be flying out to Perpignan in a couple of weeks to watch Catalans. How I got here from being drenched, sober and miserable in Limerick I have no idea, but I guess that's Rugby League for you.

I think somewhere along the line we all get to what was I thinking when it comes to TGG. Great post ds which game are you going to see? I just don't get there enough but July is coming!

[Tommygilf]

Out of curiosity I attended the 2013 RLWC game between Ireland and Australia in a 3/4 empty Thomond Park in Limerick in a torrential downpour where we were trounced 50-0 and the stadium ran out of beer. Almost a year later I happened to switch over to the BBC where I watched Warrington hammer a dismal Bradford in a weird run down stadium with upward sloping corners.

Now I have nearly 1400 posts on a RL internet forum and will be flying out to Perpignan in a couple of weeks to watch Catalans. How I got here from being drenched, sober and miserable in Limerick I have no idea, but I guess that's Rugby League for you.

Suppose this highlights the power of international sport.

On marketing specifically, I think its one of those issues where standing still risks going backwards compared to everyone else on the market

[Oxford]

Suppose this highlights the power of international sport.

On marketing specifically, I think its one of those issues where standing still risks going backwards compared to everyone else on the market

Yes, this is the answer or part of it at least.

 

DaveT and you have hit the nail on the head and answered the subtext here "or will they?" very adequately indeed.

 

The appearance of going backwards is are own creation and we have no one else to blame for that.

[Oxford]

True, in which case I only got into the idea of the magic weekend, the grand final and even Wembley CC Final through marketing ploys and advertisement.

You mean they managed to put your bum on a seat?

 

Well that blows that theory out of the water then doesn't it?

[Lowdesert]

It's interesting to note that Gary Hetherington joined Leeds in 1996. From that date through to their first Superleague crown Hetherington doubled attendances from 8,500 to 17,000 by 2005. Sure Leeds had managed attendances of 12,000 before that as early as 1989, but this was an impressive performance nonetheless.

 

After that breakthrough SL win Leeds could not stop winning. Nine Superleague and Challenge cup wins in all up to a treble last year.

 

And yet the Crowds for 2015 were down on the 17,000 of 2005. Ten years of winning trophies and the result was less fans. Hetherington should have been sacked

 

But it is interesting to note his commercial department.

 

Mr. Oates is his commercial director,

 

Mr. Jenkinson heads commercial with his team messrs Linden, Yorke & Ramsdale

Mr. Bentley heads business development with his team Griffin, Wright, Barr & Thompson

Marketing is Ms. Furness in charge with Messrs Dunlop, Ward, Halliley & Adams

P & R is Mr. Daley with messrs Flynn & Phillis

Customer experience is Ms. Jones with the team Brock, Johnson, Ives and Grannan

 

So he has a 22 persons team beavering away to find the fans, sell them the club. and keep them happy and turning up.

 

I don't think they are all useless and should all be replaced despite Leeds crowds dropping by 12% against a general drop of under 3% over the last 10 years.

 

ANYWAY

 

What got you into the game? was it Family? Friends? Telly exposure? Other media like the national or local rag? The profile of the game in your community? a response to pure marketing? a visit on a company "do", a personal preference for the sport? Playing at School? your mates or family playing amateur, a local promotion from people at your local club? Your kids getting interested? or any other ways??

.

Why do you think Leeds crowds didn't just carry on rising on the graph in Hetherington's office?

I thought you were against more and more marketing threads? Obviously not.

If you passionately believe in something you will sell it. And if you don't sell it you will continue and continue until you do. Maybe the answer is to employ people on passion, rather than quals, because passion is nearly always constant.

RL doesn't aim high enough,IMO, and aim for the big hitting companies. It needs to, and it needs to bang at they're door and convince them with passion, not numbers or BS.