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Would You Like to See Licensing Back and What Are Your Opinions on It?

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Well now you have read how the Bunbesliga works would you like the same system in Rugby League in this country?

The main point for me would be the P & R system they adopt, the other contingencies i.e. the financials TV money etc are not glaringly different from the system in the RL.

So...........(Quote)

In the 2008–09 season, the Bundesliga reinstated an earlier German system of promotion and relegation, which had been in use from 1981 until 1991:

The bottom two finishers in the Bundesliga are automatically relegated to the Div2. Bundesliga, with the top two finishers in the Div2. Bundesliga taking their place.

The third-from-bottom club in the Bundesliga will play a two-legged match with the third-place team from the Div2. Bundesliga, with the winner taking up the final place in the following season's Bundesliga.

Are you suggesting we adopt this system TFIL?

As we are at the moment with the middle 8's, should a team from the Championship manage to get promoted they would have a better chance of staying in the SL the following season other than a straight finishing bottom and top switch of division's.

Parky, keeps telling us of the system voted for but rejected which had P&R but protected the promoted club for a season allowing them a season to consolidate (if capable) their position in the SL. I believe that while the disparity in funding between the two division's is in place, this would be the fairer method.

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The main point for me would be the P & R system they adopt, the other contingencies i.e. the financials TV money etc are not glaringly different from the system in the RL.

So...........(Quote)

In the 2008–09 season, the Bundesliga reinstated an earlier German system of promotion and relegation, which had been in use from 1981 until 1991:

The bottom two finishers in the Bundesliga are automatically relegated to the Div2. Bundesliga, with the top two finishers in the Div2. Bundesliga taking their place.

The third-from-bottom club in the Bundesliga will play a two-legged match with the third-place team from the Div2. Bundesliga, with the winner taking up the final place in the following season's Bundesliga.

Are you suggesting we adopt this system TFIL?

As we are at the moment with the middle 8's, should a team from the Championship manage to get promoted they would have a better chance of staying in the SL the following season other than a straight finishing bottom and top switch of division's.

Parky, keeps telling us of the system voted for but rejected which had P&R but protected the promoted club for a season allowing them a season to consolidate (if capable) their position in the SL. I believe that while the disparity in funding between the two division's is in place, this would be the fairer method.

One of the most appealing things to me about the Budesliga system is that clubs must make a profit and ex amount of their money has to b be spent on junior development.

2 of the biggest problems we have in British RL at the monent is debt ridden clubs and serious neglect of junior development by certain clubs.

The Bundesliga should be the future blueprint for British Rugby League

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widnes are a great advert for licensing, our first season we finished bottom but we were given the chance to consolidate and build for three years and are now a top 8 team plus off the pitch we are extremely well run and work within our financial means by not throwing money around like confetti just to stay up in super league

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Coming from an NRL background I was a big fan of licensing and have been underwhelmed by the super 8 system that has replaced it. I personally believe licensing is the best way to grow the sport going forward. I would like to see 3 year licensing opened up for all 3 divisions. The Super League and Championship will both run at 12 team comps with League 1 split into 2 8 team conferences. This gives the teams in the Championship there own competition with its own grand final. It also allows clubs to find there level. Licensing would help the right clubs be in the right competition and for Super League to really grow. It would be important for the system to be transparent and not be afraid to make the right changes. The Super League will be the elite level, the Championship a place for teams with super league aspirations to grow and improve, and league 1 for development and heritage clubs.

An example of a Super League with Licensing (that looks much better in my opinion) would be

Super League

Leeds, St Helens, Wigan, Hull FC, Catalans, Toulouse, Warrington, Huddersfield, Widnes, Salford, Leigh, Hull KR

Championship

Toronto, Castleford, Wakefield, London, Bradford, Halifax, Sheffield, Featherstone, Batley, Newcastle, Coventry, Doncaster

League 1

Remaining 16 teams, 2 Conferences of 8 teams

Would like to hear some opinions on whether you liked licensing and would like to see it back or would prefer to go in another direction

Love how you put Cas in championship even though we finished higher than Widnes Hull KR and Salford for the last 4 seasons get bigger crowds home and away and made more money ground work started on new ground which new ground means nothing any way if you get less 4 k every game. Edited by king street tiger

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widnes are a great advert for licensing, our first season we finished bottom but we were given the chance to consolidate and build for three years and are now a top 8 team plus off the pitch we are extremely well run and work within our financial means by not throwing money around like confetti just to stay up in super league

Of course you are VW, Widnes were in the right place at the right time and gained the 3 year cycle spot, Fev followed you and Leigh have followed Fev with their time of dominance in the Championship, it may have been still operating that system both may now be in SL, but 3 years is to long to have to wait to have the opportunity.

Licencing fits those who are part of it, and offers little for those who are not.

Yipyee has a possible solution see #47 of this thread, but who would police it, given the rules of the document Framing the Future which was conveniently thrown away.

Edited by GaryO

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but 3 years is to long to have to wait to have the opportunity.

 

Even if someone gets promoted this season, which IMO they won't, it will still be 3 years since the 2014 season. How come this is OK?

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I enjoy the new system much better than licensing which only worked for people who got the vote.

 

Yes the one sided scorelines were a bit disappointing but not as disappointing as when licensing gave promotion to a team finishing half way down the championship or allowing some clubs to continue in SL despite awful stadiums and those clubs telling lies time and time again about new stadiums.

 

I pray we don't go back to Sky Sports showing live coverage of licensing announcements live inside a clubhouse, that made the sport a laughing stock in my opinion.

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widnes are a great advert for licensing, our first season we finished bottom but we were given the chance to consolidate and build for three years and are now a top 8 team plus off the pitch we are extremely well run and work within our financial means by not throwing money around like confetti just to stay up in super league

Replace the word Widnes with Catalan and you have another team who shows licensing was a successfull method to build and develop clubs...

Now replace widnes fans with Leigh fans to explain how if it's not your team benefiting how it seems an unfair system.

There will always be winners and loosers... its just as a fan it's easier to swallow loosing if your can blame the blokes on the pitch/coach/chairman/ceo (Bradford a good example).

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The problem is there is no single magic silver bullet. You want teams in Super League to be competitive and to have facilities at a certain standard but at the same time you need to provide opportunity for those teams that currently fall short of those criteria to progress and develop to that standard.

For licensing to work, The RFL need to drastically improve the prize money awarded to Championship teams. SKY or another TV company needs to realise that there are actually some good entertaining games in the Championship, especially involving the top end teams. Look at Bulls V Leigh this year - A great comeback by the bulls at Odsal, scoring 26 points in the last 15 mins to earn a draw, followed by two enthralling games at Blackpool and LSV where Leigh just pipped us at the death on both occasions.

Until championship clubs are more greatly rewarded for their endeavours, licensing will not work. The only way a championship club can gain access to higher cash injections at present is to be promoted to super league. Even if that results in 60 point mullerings every week, they would at least benefit from extra crowds, TV coverage, and would return to the championship financially better off, giving them a chance to build. The other option would be having a rich billionaire backer. But my opinion is that you shouldn't be able to buy your way into super league, you should have to earn your place there through performances on the field - that is what sport is all about. Without that, it's not sport.

I agree with you that licensing doesn't work unless championship and league 1 clubs get more funding. This in my opinion is an issue that can easily be addressed. The RFL also needs to have more guts when it comes to make the tough decisions.

I'm of the opinion that if the Championship had its own competition it would be more appealing for broadcasters to invest in. The championship needs to be more marketable and made to be a competition clubs are proud to be in. This cannot be achieved if it does not have its own competiton with finals and a grand final. That way if a championship club such as Bradford wins the championship two years in a row you can make a safe better that under licensing they would get back (if the system is being run correctly)

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I find it funny some people love to compare us with football but forget to think about the NRL.

You know, the closed competition in Australia without a Challenge Cup, without P&R.

With my background in the NRL this was the basis for my proposal. As strong as the NRL is if a club like Brisbane, Melbourne got relegated the NRL would struggle immensely. I wonder if say a Leeds had a few more injuries and were relegated this year the damage that would cause the Super League would be immense.

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widnes are a great advert for licensing, our first season we finished bottom but we were given the chance to consolidate and build for three years and are now a top 8 team plus off the pitch we are extremely well run and work within our financial means by not throwing money around like confetti just to stay up in super league

I agree with this and would also add licensing is a great way for Championship teams to consolidate themselves instead of spending all there money chasing an unlikely promotion. Instead they can invest in there facilities or junior development and grow there team over a 3 year period

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Love how you put Cas in championship even though we finished higher than Widnes Hull KR and Salford for the last 4 seasons get bigger crowds home and away and made more money ground work started on new ground which new ground means nothing any way if you get less 4 k every game.

On further reflection perhaps I should have put Castleford over a Hull KR or Salford but I didn't really put that much time into an example. Your missing the point of the topic and I would like to hear your opinion on it

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Of course you are VW, Widnes were in the right place at the right time and gained the 3 year cycle spot, Fev followed you and Leigh have followed Fev with their time of dominance in the Championship, it may have been still operating that system both may now be in SL, but 3 years is to long to have to wait to have the opportunity.

Licencing fits those who are part of it, and offers little for those who are not.

Yipyee has a possible solution see #47 of this thread, but who would police it, given the rules of the document Framing the Future which was conveniently thrown away.

As someone said below 3 years might be considered a long time to wait but teams are waiting that long now under this system. I have little doubt if licensing was maintained for 2015-17 Leigh would be in Super League. If licensing is to be successful we need to make sure that the Championship maintains importance so clubs like Batley who realistically aren't at Super League level ATM in playing strength, facilities and fans can compete for the championship and build there club

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Even if someone gets promoted this season, which IMO they won't, it will still be 3 years since the 2014 season. How come this is OK?

C'mon John, your not that thick to be asking this question.

In any walk of life people require something tangible to strive for, this system offers that thread, no matter how fragile that thread is there is a clear pathway to journey down to try to acheive your goal.

Licencing did not offer that, originally there was a set of criteria that had to had to be accomplished and an allotted pass rate for each of those criterion to be achieved to gain an invitation to the SL. It was at the discretion of some individuals who analysed how the club's obtained their status, and we are all aware that there was some artistic analysis offered to keep some clubs in SL.

So, as you say three years if anyone does acheive promotion this year, the first year was the year of transition leaving Licencing to prepare for the Eights, and we are in tbe second year of competition, to answer your question no it is not OK, but however hard it would be to acheive promotion, it is something club's can actually see and touch as the Bulls so very nearly did last year and not a decision made behind closed doors.

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What's wrong with the simple and straight forward system of promotion and relegation??

 

Nothing but......

 

There is nothing wrong with it when teams in both divisions are on a levelish playing field finance wise ie central funding full time squads etc.

 

what was hapening pre licencing was the team that won promotion had 3 months to go full time and put a team together to compete, and generally ended up signing many of the players from the team that had just gone down, and struggled to compete.

 

Six top Superleague clubs proposed in 2014 that we go back to P & R and we promote clubs for a two year license to help them overcome two issues.

 

Firstly they would receive full salary cap money from the SKY TV money so they could buy a team at the same basic value as their competitors.

 

Secondly they would get two years to ensure they didn't go straight back down,

 

So a solution to the problems above was proposed, but it lost by one vote, so it remains the best alternative to what we have

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There is nothing wrong with it when teams in both divisions are on a levelish playing field finance wise ie central funding full time squads etc.

what was hapening pre licencing was the team that won promotion had 3 months to go full time and put a team together to compete, and generally ended up signing many of the players from the team that had just gone down, and struggled to compete.

This is why I think the new system is a better system of p and r as even though promotion is much harder to achieve at least the promoted team will be more ready for SL than under the old system

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C'mon John, your not that thick to be asking this question.

In any walk of life people require something tangible to strive for, this system offers that thread, no matter how fragile that thread is there is a clear pathway to journey down to try to acheive your goal.

Licencing did not offer that, originally there was a set of criteria that had to had to be accomplished and an allotted pass rate for each of those criterion to be achieved to gain an invitation to the SL. It was at the discretion of some individuals who analysed how the club's obtained their status, and we are all aware that there was some artistic analysis offered to keep some clubs in SL.

So, as you say three years if anyone does acheive promotion this year, the first year was the year of transition leaving Licencing to prepare for the Eights, and we are in tbe second year of competition, to answer your question no it is not OK, but however hard it would be to acheive promotion, it is something club's can actually see and touch as the Bulls so very nearly did last year and not a decision made behind closed doors.

I think Leigh have an extremely good chance this season of achieving SL.  I think 2/3 years ago the then Fev side under Darryl could have done it.  the problem with licencing was that a team like Fev who were winning all before them even knocking SL Cas our of the CC couldn't get promoted because of licencing and the "old pals act."  Hopefully Leigh who have now replaced Fev as the best in the Championship will benefit from the new system.

Licencing was a disaster, you could even argue it was a disaster for the Bulls, because it allowed them to decline to where they are now.  Had they been challenged earlier perhaps they'd have got their act together and not been relegated at all.

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C'mon John, your not that thick to be asking this question.

In any walk of life people require something tangible to strive for, this system offers that thread, no matter how fragile that thread is there is a clear pathway to journey down to try to acheive your goal.

Licencing did not offer that, originally there was a set of criteria that had to had to be accomplished and an allotted pass rate for each of those criterion to be achieved to gain an invitation to the SL. It was at the discretion of some individuals who analysed how the club's obtained their status, and we are all aware that there was some artistic analysis offered to keep some clubs in SL.

So, as you say three years if anyone does acheive promotion this year, the first year was the year of transition leaving Licencing to prepare for the Eights, and we are in tbe second year of competition, to answer your question no it is not OK, but however hard it would be to acheive promotion, it is something club's can actually see and touch as the Bulls so very nearly did last year and not a decision made behind closed doors.

 

This was the thing for me. The fact that the criteria were set, but you could just promise something would happen and you were in made it all seem pretty dodgy...

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I think Leigh have an extremely good chance this season of achieving SL.  I think 2/3 years ago the then Fev side under Darryl could have done it.  the problem with licencing was that a team like Fev who were winning all before them even knocking SL Cas our of the CC couldn't get promoted because of licencing and the "old pals act."  Hopefully Leigh who have now replaced Fev as the best in the Championship will benefit from the new system.

Licencing was a disaster, you could even argue it was a disaster for the Bulls, because it allowed them to decline to where they are now.  Had they been challenged earlier perhaps they'd have got their act together and not been relegated at all.

 

Trojan, clubs will decline under any system, particularly if they get the finance side wrong; there are other factors of course. In those last two sentences you really are kite flying.

 

The issue of whether licensing, p and r, or playoffs are the right systems, ignores one of the the most important issues, viz the marked lack of money in RL. The reorganisation of the structures of the game doesn't in itself address how to get more money into the sport. Nor does reorganisation in itself present a way forward which involves getting more children and young people playing and staying with the game, which is a major and growing challenge for RL, as well as other team sports. 

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I think Leigh have an extremely good chance this season of achieving SL. I think 2/3 years ago the then Fev side under Darryl could have done it. the problem with licencing was that a team like Fev who were winning all before them even knocking SL Cas our of the CC couldn't get promoted because of licencing and the "old pals act." Hopefully Leigh who have now replaced Fev as the best in the Championship will benefit from the new system.

Licencing was a disaster, you could even argue it was a disaster for the Bulls, because it allowed them to decline to where they are now. Had they been challenged earlier perhaps they'd have got their act together and not been relegated at all.

Precisely, licensing offered a false sense of security to clubs and arguably led to the near financial collapses of Wakefield, Salford and Bradford.

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......it gets harder still when the RFL penalise a top 8 team with a points deduction turning them into a bottom 4 team and putting them in the qualifiers. I think Wakefield would have been in otherwise who just conceded 60 points in their first super 8 game. While I think Leigh will show up well against Huddersfield and HKR, having Wakey in there instead of Salford would have given them an even better chance.

Of course I could take all this back should we beat Salford on Saturday :)

Edited by DemonUK

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Precisely, licensing offered a false sense of security to clubs and arguably led to the near financial collapses of Wakefield, Salford and Bradford.

We're straight into the 8s and Bradford is still in trouble about finances.

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We're straight into the 8s and Bradford is still in trouble about finances.

But that is because their on field performances have made it that they face a financial shortfall, not because the management have been given a free rein because there was no risk of them going down.

Now its entirely their own fault, the system hasn't artificially supported them, or given them a harder time through halving the money available to them; they played, they weren't good enough, they're outside the middle 8s.

On a side note Bradford could become RLs Leeds United, inspiring the RFL to give parachute payments to relegated teams.

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As far as I can see, the 8s concept has breathed new life into the game and in particular the championship, which is arguably the more interesting competition now.

 

It needs a few tweaks to improve the show, but I think we're on the right track.

 

As for licensing, I hope that word and Rugby League are never again uttered in the same context.  A truly awful and divisive system that produced a snorefest Super League and a meaningless Championship.

 

It's been a year a half of the new system.  How can you possibly judge whether it's a success or not.

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