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The Parksider

Mr. Davey now turns on the RFL

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Wigan's Ian Leneghan is next to put the boot into the system and Super 8s. It's all unfolding - probably after doing income and commercial evaluations.

 

http://www.loverugbyleague.com/news_23745-lenagan-laments-super-8s.html

Indeed.  As I said in my post above, the issue is not with the RFL but with the SL clubs.  

 

I Lenaghan gets his way, even LESS chance of any other club ever breaking into the SL closed shop, absent a very rich owner. And less and less people watching and playing the game, since they become increasing disheartened by the glass ceiling.  And even MORE reliance on rich guys pumping millions in.    Yet, in Lenaghan's place, I would probably say the same. What a wonderfully-appealing prospect the future holds, for most of the clubs outside of SL.

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Wigan's Ian Leneghan is next to put the boot into the system and Super 8s. It's all unfolding - probably after doing income and commercial evaluations.

http://www.loverugbyleague.com/news_23745-lenagan-laments-super-8s.html

So says Mr. Lenaghan

"I’ve nothing negative against the Championship, but they have spread the money among too many clubs.

“All we’ve done is dumb-down Super League, and you can see that by the fact some are losing to Championship clubs (in the Qualifiers).

"People are saying raise the cap in Super League... if we had more of the money that has gone into the Championship, we could raise the cap.

"Our focus should be on Super League, in that the money which comes in from broadcasting, should stay in Super League - and we would have a healthier game because of it.”

Had he been born 200 years ago we would still be starting work at 8 years old, all being made to fend for themselves and being put out to grass when we reach old age, so much for the haves and have nots, some folk are never happy. What a tosser.

Edited by GaryO

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I have been agreeing with you up to now Parky, but now you want to shackle the ambition of individual clubs and virtually put a ceiling on what they can spend, not all players want to be part-time, being that theoretically the better players have earned the full-time employment position, you will effectively reduce the overall quality of the league.

Sorry cannot agree with you there friend.

 

Gary,

 

What did Leigh or Featherstone spend on a team when they competed the Grand final 2014?

What did Batley or Sheffield spend when they competed the final 2013?

Or Halifax when they won it?? 

 

The more you put the salary cap up in the Championship the more you price the clubs out of the main prize of winning it.

 

How much did Cas, Widnes, Salford, Wakefield, Hull and Huddersfield spend to get promotion after which they stayed up.

 

Making the Championship semi pro again makes it a more inclusive competition, and then once someone wins it they will do what all clubs do - even your own club now - sack most of the players and buy in professionals hand over fist.

 

I'm not saying cut the Championship cap to what Rochdale can afford. I'm saying ensure those clubs with genuine and reasonable SL ambitions compete off a level playing field.

 

Whoever wins it is always going to sack off a load of players and bring in top professionals.

 

Your club could have gone up and stayed up 2014 easily enough, yet in this farce they were made to spend £Hundreds of thousands so they could have a chance against SL clubs. What a gigantic waste Gary. And what a shame other championship clubs could no longer compete like batley Fev, Fax, and Eagles used to do.....

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I read the full interview within the Wigan Post and he says a little more, if you follow the link, within the link. The LRL is actually dumbed down also!

Leneghan actually says - '.... we need to stick it out for three years'.

http://www.wigantoday.net/sport/wigan-warriors/exclusive-lenagan-talks-super-8s-super-league-and-shaun-wane-part-1-1-8164574

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Wigan's Ian Leneghan is next to put the boot into the system and Super 8s. It's all unfolding - probably after doing income and commercial evaluations.

 

http://www.loverugbyleague.com/news_23745-lenagan-laments-super-8s.html

 

Lenegan did his evaluations before this system ever came in. He condemned it in an open letter to the RFL January 2014 as leader of the six "rebel" clubs also vehemently against it.

 

I'm quite sure you are right scubby that this second tirade against the system is based on confirmation that it has been a "commercial disaster" as Davey states. Remember the Swiss said to the Scottish FA it would be a financial disaster, yet the RFL went ahead,

 

I really do hope that people will not take his comments completely the wrong way. (but sadly some will)......

 

I do not believe for one minute his comments about how much money the Championship clubs got is in any way a sleight against them.

 

What he means is all that money could have gone to Superleague to pay players more, to keep the competition strong and the TV deal secure.

 

The Championship could have played a part time competition in 2015 and leigh could have been promoted and Wakefield relegated, and leigh could have then got £2,000,000 to establish themselves in SL.

 

Instead Mr. Beaumont has been forced to break and beat the system by forcing the RFL to up the cap, which they did, then Mr, Beaumont had to empty his pockets to get a chance to go up.

 

What an incredible waste the money that went to the championship to "make the system work" has been, It didn't work. The only thing that made it work was Mr, Beaumont having to waste £100,000's of his own money on players he's now getting shot of.

Edited by The Parksider

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Gary,

 

What did Leigh or Featherstone spend on a team when they competed the Grand final 2014?

What did Batley or Sheffield spend when they competed the final 2013?

Or Halifax when they won it?? 

 

The more you put the salary cap up in the Championship the more you price the clubs out of the main prize of winning it.

 

How much did Cas, Widnes, Salford, Wakefield, Hull and Huddersfield spend to get promotion after which they stayed up.

 

Making the Championship semi pro again makes it a more inclusive competition, and then once someone wins it they will do what all clubs do - even your own club now - sack most of the players and buy in professionals hand over fist.

 

I'm not saying cut the Championship cap to what Rochdale can afford. I'm saying ensure those clubs with genuine and reasonable SL ambitions compete off a level playing field.

 

Whoever wins it is always going to sack off a load of players and bring in top professionals.

 

Your club could have gone up and stayed up 2014 easily enough, yet in this farce they were made to spend £Hundreds of thousands so they could have a chance against SL clubs. What a gigantic waste Gary. And what a shame other championship clubs could no longer compete like batley Fev, Fax, and Eagles used to do.....

All valid points Parky, but for the life of me I can't see that how it would differ from the old P&R days, save for the one years relegation amnesty.

But as we discuss this, now that Chancellor Leneghan has got on board we are only missing Mien Fuhrer Hetherington voicing his dissatisfaction with the current system and the puppets at RL Headquarters will jump to the rally call, dark days ahead for the game.

So back to your original point, if the SL chairmen get their way, then I conceded, every club below SL will be part time.

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Had he been born 200 years ago we would still be starting work at 8 years old, all being made to fend for themselves and being put out to grass when we reach old age, so much for the haves and have nots, some folk are never happy. What a tosser.

 

Oh Gaz, you've taken it completely the wrong way.

 

If Lenegan had had his way you would have been promoted 2015 and given £2M to spend on a team and maybe another £2M next year  even if you had come bottom...... 

 

Mr, Beaumont would have saved a fortune this way mate. He could have spent his private money in Superleague rather than spending it getting over the ridiculous hurdle Mr, Lenegan did not want.

 

Perhaps consider an apology quick??

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So back to your original point, if the SL chairmen get their way, then I concede, every club below SL will be part time.

 

And if Lenegan gets his way most of them will be able to afford to win promotion and receive £2M per year for two years to stay there. All courtesy of Mr. Lenegan.

 

He said today that Leigh should have been promoted earlier 

 

Wrong man Gary.

Edited by The Parksider

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And if Lenegan gets his way most of them will be able to afford to win promotion and receive £2M per year for two years to stay there. All courtesy of Mr. Lenegan.

 

Wrong man Gary.

He also congratulates Mr. B for his input from his own pocket and probably persistence, but in that Mr. B also had the funding to bolster his contribution.

Mr Leneghan openly wants to cut that funding:

“But our focus should be on Super League, in that the money which comes in from broadcasting, should stay in Super League - and we would have a healthier game because of it.”

I think that statement should read "a healthier Super League because of it"

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a couple of questions from the other side of the world - why does money ultimately from sky tv deal go to Championship clubs when sky only covers the big bash weekend and some of championship teams super 8's games is this value for money? with a salary cap of 1.8 million pounds how are you ever going to compete in the WCC against NRL sides with 4.2 million pound salary caps? Not to mention compete to retain elite players from going to NRL or totally leaving the game for union or other codes. What about giving the same grant for all championship clubs say $250,000 pounds each & decent prize $ for League Leaders & Grand final winners to help with the cause to gain promotion & rest of $ then going to increase the Super League salary Cap? What about geographic location criteria? Currently what is stopping Heartland areas from becoming over/under represented in the Super League like Greater Manchester? Chesire? Lancashire? South Yorkshire? WestYorkshire? Humberside? Cumbria no longer represented in top two competitions at all? Under representation of teams in the top 2 comps from the south of England or Wales? How many non UK teams can a UK based Super League sustain without disenfranchising core support? Food for much needed thought!    

Edited by kiwis 13 6

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Do I?  Where do you divine that from? The RFL can only distribute the money they get.  Plenty wrong with the self-servers who run the RFL, for sure.  But if there is an issue with to whom the monies are distributed, blame rests predominantly with the SL clubs who understandably seek to secure as much as possible of a seriously inadequate pot for themselves.

 

But as for Championship clubs generating more money - and by this, I am talking about serious money, not just a few thousands here or there - what are YOUR suggestions?  Since you clearly feel they need help in coming up with ideas?

 

If a Championship club is to break into SL, and have realistic prospects of REMAINING there, then they will need to have an income and cost base that is close to certainly the weakest SL clubs.  But they are starting from a base of central funding £1m-£1.6m or more less than those SL clubs.  So they have to find at LEAST £1m more "income" to be able to compete effectively. Just where exactly are Championship clubs suposed to find that sort of money, over and above the income a SL club can raise?  What income streams are open to them, that are not open to SL clubs and so will give the Chgampionship clubs a way of overcoming the massive central funding disparity?

 

Attendances, sponsorship and most other corporate income streams will in general be far lower in the championship, same as they are in every other sport for the next level/s down. No rocket science there.  if you have a friendly council, or come up good on the ground redevelopment/cost paid by major retail development lottery, then that maybe gives you a chance. But otherwise, I ask you again: what specifically would you advise a Championship club to do that is different to what a SL club does, to plug the £1m+ central funding gap, plus the additional gap caused by lower opportunity for other income streams?

 

Comes back to what I keep saying: you need to find a rich owner fan prepared to pump millions in, for probably no realistic prospect of getting it back. Find one, and you have a chance. Ask Leigh. Otherwise, very low chances of getting anywhewre.

Its the people who own these championship clubs who should be coming up with ways of generating the income if they want to progress to SL.

We're no different to any other sport in that TV money will always be significantly less away from the top flight so it's down to the clubs to find ways to plug that gap in order to get themselves there. They also can't rely on the governing body to provide additional funding. Whether you like it or not its the SL clubs who attract the TV money into the sport and the sponsors so its inevitable that they will receive the largest share.

However admirable, any attempts to take money from the SL clubs in order to provide additional funding to the championship will probably result in some sort of breakaway by the SL clubs. If that happens then the Championship really is dead in the water as the SL clubs would then take all the money and sponsors with them.

One potential solution is for the RFL to allow the Championship to try and sell their TV rights themselves for the regular season (not the middle 8's as Sky already have that) to try and bring in additional money that way. Whether they could find a buyer or how much that would bring in, who knows. 

However one down side of this may be that the SL clubs would then have a stronger argument that they should keep an ever larger share of the Sky TV monies (as Leneghan seems to want), so there's a risk with going down this route.

Edited by Saint Toppy

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In other words, you have absolutely no idea how they are expected to find a way to bridge the massive funding gap?  Which, I submit, is probably far more than in most other sports?

 

You are in good company though, for neither have I.  But at least I admit it, rather than say "someone should do something about it". What makes you think that, all of a sudden, "the Championship Clubs" will miraculously come up with a new means of generating income, that has eluded them and their predecessors for many years? What amazing piece of financial wizardry is there just waiting to be discovered?  One that SL clubs a) have not already discovered and b)that SL clubs would not also be able to avail themselves of, so merely restoring - or worsening - the status quo ante?

 

Freedom to try and sell the TV rights is, I agree, maybe the only obvious one. But then I agree, so is the likely response of the SL clubs.  And to whom would they sell the rights? There is clearly appetite for watching SL.  But where is the appetite, outside of the dedicated fanbase and the heartlands, for watching the Championship?  Maybe, just maybe, such an appetite could be created - with a lot of money invested.  But where, in turn, is that investment to come from?  Those owners who could afford to invest will surely prefer to spend their dosh on trying to advance their OWN club, rather than for the good of the whole competition?  Just the same way as most SL club owners do.  Just the same way as you or I would, if we were sinking in millions?

 

So it seems, absent any better ideas, you agree with me that the only likely,means to close the income gap is to go find a rich fan prepared to sink a load of dosh?

Edited by Adeybull

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a couple of questions from the other side of the world - why does money ultimately from sky tv deal go to Championship clubs when sky only covers the big bash weekend and some of championship teams super 8's games is this value for money? with a salary cap of 1.8 million pounds how are you ever going to compete in the WCC against NRL sides with 4.2 million pound salary caps? Not to mention compete to retain elite players from going to NRL or totally leaving the game for union or other codes. What about giving the same grant for all championship clubs say $250,000 pounds each & decent prize $ for League Leaders & Grand final winners to help with the cause to gain promotion & rest of $ then going to increase the Super League salary Cap? What about geographic location criteria? Currently what is stopping Heartland areas from becoming over/under represented in the Super League like Greater Manchester? Chesire? Lancashire? South Yorkshire? WestYorkshire? Humberside? Cumbria no longer represented in top two competitions at all? Under representation of teams in the top 2 comps from the south of England or Wales? How many non UK teams can a predominately UK based Super have? Food for much needed thought!    

Even if ALL the funds paid to the Championship were paid out to SL clubs, it would not close the gap appreciably with the NRL. 

 

As I keep saying, the problem is that there is FAR TOO LITTLE MONEY in the British game. All we are doing is arguing over the size of the slices of the cake each club should get, when the essential reality is that the cake is far, far too small in the first place.

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In other words, you have absolutely no idea how they are expected to find a way to bridge the massive funding gap?  Which, I submit, is probably far more than in most other sports?

 

You are in good company though, for neither have I.  But at least I admit it, rather than say "someone should do something about it". What makes you think that, all of a sudden, "the Championship Clubs" will miraculously come up with a new means of generating income, that has eluded them and their predecessors for many years? What amazing piece of financial wizardry is there just waiting to be discovered?  One that SL clubs a) have not already discovered and b)that SL clubs would not also be able to avail themselves of, so merely restoring - or worsening - the status quo ante?

 

Freedom to try and sell the TV rights is, I agree, maybe the only obvious one. But then I agree, so is the likely response of the SL clubs.  And to whom would they sell the rights? There is clearly appetite for watching SL.  But where is the appetite, outside of the dedicated fanbase and the heartlands, for watching the Championship?  Maybe, just maybe, such an appetite could be created - with a lot of money invested.  But where, in turn, is that investment to come from?  Those owners who could afford to invest will surely prefer to spend their dosh on trying to advance their OWN club, rather than for the good of the whole competition?  Just the same way as most SL club owners do.  Just the same way as you or I would, if we were sinking in millions?

 

So it seems, absent any better ideas, you agree with me that the only likely,means to close the income gap is to go find a rich fan prepared to sink a load of dosh?

Your right that I don't have the answers, and that's why I don't own a rugby club at any level.

On another thread (the Ian Schubert one) I did however make reference as to how those clubs with rich owners could improve their income and be less reliant on central funding and TV money. They should look at the Australian Leagues club set-up and look to open something similar here bringing in revenue from cafe's, bars, restaurants. The only merchandise that clubs sell is their own branded stuff, and their whole income generation plans are based solely around the club & stadium.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think there are a lot of club owners who are doing a great job, but I also think they are very insular in the way they approach the clubs as a business. If they really want their clubs to grow then they should be looking beyond the purely 'rugby' side of things and looking at other longer term investments in their towns & communities.

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Incidentally, did the Sky deal not also include the TV rights to the Championship? And then they choose not to show any matches? If so, the Championship clubs are ENTITLED to a share of the funding. It is not their fault they are not on TV?

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The sooner S League breaks away from the RFL the sooner it will become stronger. Sky is the main source of funds, next come the 7/8 ? rich club owners, does anyone seriously expect them to keep pumping in their millions and be happy to be outmaneuvered by the RFL indefinitely and be forced  to use a  system / format that they don't like.

 

I'm not saying any of them will ever get any money back , or even want any back, but they are going sooner or later, to want to have a much bigger say.

 

How many times do you see on these boards people saying ( if they do that I'm done with the game ) Right that's another £200 quid gone then , that will bankrupt the game. Yet people putting in vast amounts of money are expected to just keep on and stop moaning, while the RFL sit there dreaming up the next system that they think will justify their cushy little numbers. Dream on.

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How are these wealthy club owners being outmanouvered by the RFL. I would have thought if the owners are concerned about relegation or being in the middle 8's, that they look closer to home, because it seems to me, the players those clubs signed weren't good enough , therefore money wasted. Now who's door does that lie at ?

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I understand the reasoning for p and r every 2 years but how could the Championship be made interesting in the first year with no promotion? Could the first year count somehow?

Giving all championship clubs equal money with more in SL isn't too bad an idea if the money in SL is spent wisely and not just on inflated wages.

The shortfall in money in the Championship may mean clubs have to be part time so they can't sign loads of players on big contracts but it might encourage clubs to develop their own players and pick up Academy players who get released from SL clubs so they stay in the game.

If less money is given to Championship clubs could SL be 14 teams again?

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How are these wealthy club owners being outmanouvered by the RFL. I would have thought if the owners are concerned about relegation or being in the middle 8's, that they look closer to home, because it seems to me, the players those clubs signed weren't good enough , therefore money wasted. Now who's door does that lie at ?

 

They were outmaneuvered by the RFL in exactly the  way  Parky has explained. They were concerned about it but were outvoted, If i were putting in money in big amounts i would be wanting a bit more say in things as well. League needs to get into the real world.

S League can not afford to fund another two leagues as well, not if it is to provide top quality games across the league.

I am not championing Huddersfields cause in any way, they could so easily have been relegated, if they ever do ,or Mr Davy pulls out , then so be it they will also be then holding the game back if they are getting funded by S League.

League is just like any other walk of life , It's only the few League fans who think it isn't.

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Rich clubs want all of the money shocker. Yet we seem so anti-rfl as fans we support the rich who want to shaft the poor. Im surprised a Northern game has fans so passionately in favour of the big uns.

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Giantstrides, I appreciate your opinion,but it still doesn't answer who is responsible for spending vasts amounts of money on players. Plus if you just have S/L where are the next generation of players coming from, not every S/L player is brought through the ranks of S/L clubs. With a shrinking Pro  game do you think there'll be as many youngsters playing the game, and what about the outposts of the game, there are people involved in those areas trying to spread the game and yet the flagship competition is shrinking. I take it from your post there'd be no place for Toulouse or hypothetically Canada getting into S/L, or even a resurgent Welsh team or god forbid a Championship side.

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He also congratulates Mr. B for his input from his own pocket and probably persistence, but in that Mr. B also had the funding to bolster his contribution.

Mr Leneghan openly wants to cut that funding:

“But our focus should be on Super League, in that the money which comes in from broadcasting, should stay in Super League - and we would have a healthier game because of it.”

I think that statement should read "a healthier Super League because of it"

 

Lenegan thanks Beaumont for digging deep, because many other Championship owners would and did look at the giant money hurdle this system puts in front of them and say "I won't invest a £Million when even if you come top there is no guarantee of promotion, your team has to then overcome teams on £1,8M wages"

 

Lenegan wanted the Championship to continue on the lower level of central funding, not take all their money away Gary. Prior to this increase in funding Championship clubs used to get promotion and stay up, Hull did it, Salford did it, Widnes did it, Wakey did it - how many times? .

 

And during the wilderness years of licensing, but for licensing  Halifax could have gone up, Fev could have gone up, Sheffield could have gone up as semi pro clubs because they won the semi pro Championship..........

 

and in 2014  LEIGH COULD HAVE GONE UP

 

There is not enough money in the game to professionalise the Championship. The fact is if you badly underfund a project you make a pigs ear of it and in the end someone has to put money in to rescue it. To be honest with you it would have been good if Mr, Beaumont had kept his money in his pocket.

 

Then we could have clearly seen what the RFL did was predictable and disgraceful.

 

Mr. Lenegan simply wanted to go back to straight P & R which would have seen leigh go up, AND as a birthday and Xmas present to you Gary give you two years to build and £4,000,000 to build it where Mr, Beaumont could THEN spend his money thus saving £hundreds of thousands of his money wasted on players now being sacked off, that he could now be spending in SL.

 

On this issue you really do owe Mr. Lenegan an apology and you really do have the wrong man.

 

On the issue of not generally wanting to fund the championship more, Mr. Lenegan has it right, but that's another point.

 

As far as his stance on P & R goes he was your friend, the RFL was your enemy, you didn't see Beaumont scrapping with Lenegan, it was the RFL Beaumont openly and angrily threatened at the end of 2015.

Edited by The Parksider

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I am good sir and I hope you are well too.

 

I still do not get it Ian.

 

I see no hope for Rovers with Toulouse spending big 2017, Toronto's $$$ coming through 2018, Neil Hudgell able to outspend you at HKR, David Hughes able to outspend you at Broncos.

 

In 2011 Fev should have gone up and Crusaders out.

 

You lost to Fax, Leigh and Sheffield in other finals, you topped the league several times.

 

You should have had your chance, they should make the Championship a competitive league again by making it all semi pro with champions promoted, so that you can compete with these clubs for a place in SL, and if you get it have a chance to survive there.

 

What we have now gives you no chance - how can Fev fans not see this?

I'm good thanks mate.

 

I don't agree with making the Championship semi-pro because it will hold clubs back who have a backer and it's not fair to do that.  The hope for Fev is the what makes our club (in my opinion) unique and that's the hope of punching above our weight and delivering the best we can given our resource.  

 

My grand final last season was watching us beat a fully professional Bradford team in front of a massive crowd at Post Office Road to make top 4.  The feeling and buzz I got after this game was the same feeling I've had when my little club has achieved something massive against the odds in the past.  The excitement and feeling never changes and the new system gives us more opportunity to have these big games.  Next year I look forward to having the same crack at Hull KR.

 

So for me as a Fev fan the new system gives us big games and guarentees some big crowds but at the same time it gives those big clubs or clubs with backers a fair chance of making SL.  Can't wait to have a crack next year at these full time clubs, you never know we might make top 4 again, we've shocked the game time and time again in the past. 

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Your right that I don't have the answers, and that's why I don't own a rugby club at any level.

On another thread (the Ian Schubert one) I did however make reference as to how those clubs with rich owners could improve their income and be less reliant on central funding and TV money. They should look at the Australian Leagues club set-up and look to open something similar here bringing in revenue from cafe's, bars, restaurants. The only merchandise that clubs sell is their own branded stuff, and their whole income generation plans are based solely around the club & stadium.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think there are a lot of club owners who are doing a great job, but I also think they are very insular in the way they approach the clubs as a business. If they really want their clubs to grow then they should be looking beyond the purely 'rugby' side of things and looking at other longer term investments in their towns & communities.

 

I would not tar the owners in this way.

 

They have all been the guests of Mr. Caddick and Mr. Hetherington at Headingley many times where the Leeds club explore and invest in every avenue they can to boost the Leeds club. 

 

They are all sound top top businessmen otherwise they would not be owners of the clubs, and I would be confident that if any of the 12 found an idea to boost income they would share it across the board.

 

With the deepest respect to everyone on here I'd be 100% confident that the clubs do their best to maximise income and that if they do not do something it's not because they have not considered it but because the business plan won't work.

 

As an example "cafe's bars and restaurants" are businesses in a tight sector with high levels of competition that need to be in town centres to make any real money. Many are a labour of love.

As another example I'm sure they invest in "marketing" but will stop at the point when they add another member of staff to the marketing team at £16,000 and another £4,000 for them to spend and they don't bring in £21,000.

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