rlno1 Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Recently I watched a couple of matches featuring Harry Pinner from the mid 1980's what a magnificent player he was always scheming and distributing the ball creating openings in the defence and putting his supports away. He made the game so interesting to watch. Has today's game really developed to a point that it is better than what it once was? Here in Australia I find it a little tedious like a basketball game where only the end is exciting. To hear Craig Bellamy talk of the game as a process just about sums it up. Compare the exquisite skill and variation of a Harry Pinner to any of today's thoughtless forwards who have more power and speed than Harry but nowhere near the deft ballwork, is this really what we want from the game. I watched the NRL grand final this year and lamented that Cronulla had David Fifita playing at five eighth from scrums and his "skill" was to run straight and hard every time. Compare this to the 1986 grand final when we had the supreme skill of Brett Kenny, again has the game moved forward when the five eighth role has evolved into a battering ram. Oh to see these two players weave their magic again or even two who possess the same skill and thought with the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindblower46 Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Harry was a very good player and kicker....better than today's robots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henage Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 At some point a team/coach will drift away from how the game is played today (at the top level) change things a little , try a few things not in the coaches manual . Until the amount of subs allowed is reduced I cant see much changing . I like to see big vforwards knocking ten bells out of each other , but also like to see smaller/skillful players find a little room to show there skills . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnyia Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 I'm on a rl coaching course in France and one of the guys on the course left league at 20 and went to play union and the international 7s circuit and then coached union 15 and 7s,and a little handball. now he's back in league he has some great ideas that surprise the rest of us as we're all set in the league(aussie) way of playing. The people running the course think he's crazy and has no idea! but he's just got a different vision of our game as almost an outsider, he sees things we don't like kick off position weaknesses and positioning weaknesses that we don't think about as we take it as the norm to kick long unless we're losing. He is a little mad especially after a beer but if people opened their minds a little surely we could move away from the same old same old way of playing, Harry pinner was great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sentoffagain2 Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Like most good players Harry always seemed to have time for the correct offload .It's a shame today's game does not encourage ball playing loose forwards.they could create space through the tightest defences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnyia Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Would Andy Gregory have been so good if he played today? I couldn't imagine him looping round the back behind of a prop to pass to either a second row on the lead and a full back looping around. Bring back the 3 man wall set play or the triangle arrow head formation or the first dummy half letting the ball roll between his legs and running off pretending he had the ball and the winger running the opposite way with the ball! Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audois Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Alan - I think I read somewhere that the famous Puig Aubert believed in avoiding PTBs at all costs! The French side I first saw at St Helens in 1958 was a complete revelation with ball movement extraordinary. Is it at all possible that the real, old 'French Flair' of yesteryear will ever see the light of day again? At least Alberola is trying to give it a go at the ASC! "It involves matters much greater than drafting the new rules...the original and existing games have their own powerful appeal to their players and public and have the sentiments which history inspires" - Harold 'Jersey' Flegg 1933 "Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart." - Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959 Si tu( Remi Casty) devais envoyer un fax au Président Guasch? " Un grand bravo pour ce que vous avez fait,et merci de m 'avoir embarqué dans cette aventure" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnyia Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Patrick's team is very structured but do do 2 set plays in every set and play the same from in their own 20 as they do in their opponents, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobbygobbler Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Derek Pyke had similar ball handling skills to Pinner. Too many subs and the 10m rule are the problem and add no value IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryO Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Recently I watched a couple of matches featuring Harry Pinner from the mid 1980's what a magnificent player he was always scheming and distributing the ball creating openings in the defence and putting his supports away. He made the game so interesting to watch. Has today's game really developed to a point that it is better than what it once was? Here in Australia I find it a little tedious like a basketball game where only the end is exciting. To hear Craig Bellamy talk of the game as a process just about sums it up. Compare the exquisite skill and variation of a Harry Pinner to any of today's thoughtless forwards who have more power and speed than Harry but nowhere near the deft ballwork, is this really what we want from the game. I watched the NRL grand final this year and lamented that Cronulla had David Fifita playing at five eighth from scrums and his "skill" was to run straight and hard every time. Compare this to the 1986 grand final when we had the supreme skill of Brett Kenny, again has the game moved forward when the five eighth role has evolved into a battering ram. Oh to see these two players weave their magic again or even two who possess the same skill and thought with the ball. Looking at your profile Rino I see you have been a member of these pages since 2007, I would have thought that maybe you would have picked up that you should not be highlighting the silky skills of the players from yesteryear with today's robotic culture, after all it was far easier for player's back then as the fastest of them were slower than today's 18 stone props by comparison, we are told.RL is like a drug to to me and I will defend it to the hilt against all the detractors of my sport, but for me it is nowhere near as as exciting or gives as much pleasure to watch as it once use to, for me the players could be every bit as fluent as those greats that preceeded them, but the rules and the number of substitutes will not allow spontaneity and imagination of the creative players to be expressed as it once was. "If Rugby League had never been Invented, today we would only have Rugby League" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnyia Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 The French president wants French flair back but the Catalans are looking mainly for young athletes to give skill too rather than smaller skillful players, Gordon I think it's the miloudi at carcassonne that give them a little more flair too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celtic Rooster Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 I am certainly not a St. Helens fan and yet Harry Pinner is one of my all time favourites. When I first fell in love with Rugby League in the mid 70's I couldn't get enough and I would watch any games - anywhere. I didn't really take a lot of notice of individual players but as I learned the game some players started to stand out. I remember watching Saints play a Challenge cup tie at Bradford (Late 70's/early 80's) and I think it was a draw, then I went to Knowsley road for a night match, again in the Challenge cup .v. Hull. I remember it being a tight game which Saints won. If I am remembering correctly Harry Pinner scored 3 or 4 drop goals that night. I didn't understand the game too well in those early days but I can remember Harry Pinner playing the game with a big smile on his face. He clearly loved playing the game and was one of the reasons I fell in love with it too. So sad Super League came along and ruined it for me. Still, mention of Harry Pinner brings back happy memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Recently I watched a couple of matches featuring Harry Pinner from the mid 1980's what a magnificent player he was always scheming and distributing the ball creating openings in the defence and putting his supports away. He made the game so interesting to watch. Has today's game really developed to a point that it is better than what it once was? Here in Australia I find it a little tedious like a basketball game where only the end is exciting. To hear Craig Bellamy talk of the game as a process just about sums it up. Compare the exquisite skill and variation of a Harry Pinner to any of today's thoughtless forwards who have more power and speed than Harry but nowhere near the deft ballwork, is this really what we want from the game. I watched the NRL grand final this year and lamented that Cronulla had David Fifita playing at five eighth from scrums and his "skill" was to run straight and hard every time. Compare this to the 1986 grand final when we had the supreme skill of Brett Kenny, again has the game moved forward when the five eighth role has evolved into a battering ram. Oh to see these two players weave their magic again or even two who possess the same skill and thought with the ball. The two scenarios you mention are very different. Saying that you see Fifita standing at first receive from the scrum indicates that the likes of Kenny are gone from our game is not a convincing argument. Yes, the current coaching trend is for a big forward to take the first play from the #### but this doesn't mean that skilful and creative half backs have gone from the game. Bret Kenny was one of my favourite ever players but the likes of Johnson and Thurston are just as skilful and entertaining. Harry Pinner is a different argument and that is because the ball playing loose forward has gone from our game. I guess this is just an evolution of the sport but in Pinner's time the skilful loose forward was a key role while now we see more creativity coming from the dummy half role (think Smith and Hodgson). Anyway, it is not as though we don't have creative and skilful players in our game anymore - James Graham is as good a ball handling prop as you will ever find while Sean O'Loughlin is a very skilful player. I enjoyed watching both Pinner and Kenny play our game but I think it is actually the evolution of better defences that has changed the game the most since the 1980's rather than the lack of skilful players, "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Yes, the current coaching trend is for a big forward to take the first play from the #### I thought I typed scrum! is that a swear word in Rugby League now! "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlno1 Posted December 17, 2016 Author Share Posted December 17, 2016 I was comparing the play or style of the five eighth in today's game compared to the skilful style of the 80's where you had Kenny, Tony Myler, Gary Schofield etc. It seems sad that the game seems to have lost this aspect and yes you probably are right that the well organised structured defence along with the 10 metre rule has contributed greatly to this. Also the demise of the specialist position with coaches today's obsessing over one size fits all. Give me 10 Kevin Ward's over James Graham any day. Another aspect of play from today compared to the past is in games from the 80's running one out from acting half was considered dumb unimaginative football whereas today it is the norm. Again, has the game really improved as a spectacle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blind side johnny Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 When I recall watching such as Harry Pinner in the flesh I also recall being surrounded by a load of old gimmers claiming that the game had gone downhill since their day. That sort of thing doesn't happen today, thankfully. Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Give me 10 Kevin Ward's over James Graham any day. I don't really understand this point. In your first post you say "Compare the exquisite skill and variation of a Harry Pinner to any of today's thoughtless forwards who have more power and speed than Harry but nowhere near the deft ballwork" Now, I loved Kevin Ward, he is one of my favourite ever players, but he was nowhere near as skilful as Graham who is one of the most complete props to ever play the game. So why would you say you want 10 Kevin Wards and no James Grahams when James Graham is one of the modern players who displays the skills that you so badly miss? I am beginning to think you just hate everything about the modern game and will not accept anything positive about it. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Looking at your profile Rino I see you have been a member of these pages since 2007, I would have thought that maybe you would have picked up that you should not be highlighting the silky skills of the players from yesteryear with today's robotic culture, after all it was far easier for player's back then as the fastest of them were slower than today's 18 stone props by comparison, we are told. RL is like a drug to to me and I will defend it to the hilt against all the detractors of my sport, but for me it is nowhere near as as exciting or gives as much pleasure to watch as it once use to, for me the players could be every bit as fluent as those greats that preceeded them, but the rules and the number of substitutes will not allow spontaneity and imagination of the creative players to be expressed as it once was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronicler of Chiswick Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Game's never been the same since Huddersfield signed that foreigner Rosenwhareverhisbloodyname were. And as for the new clubs, what have teams like Castleford given to the game that Tyldesley and Liversedge couldn't if they'd had the same special treatment and secret funding? Has thee an answer to that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowdesert Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 I don't really understand this point. In your first post you say "Compare the exquisite skill and variation of a Harry Pinner to any of today's thoughtless forwards who have more power and speed than Harry but nowhere near the deft ballwork" Now, I loved Kevin Ward, he is one of my favourite ever players, but he was nowhere near as skilful as Graham who is one of the most complete props to ever play the game. So why would you say you want 10 Kevin Wards and no James Grahams when James Graham is one of the modern players who displays the skills that you so badly miss? I am beginning to think you just hate everything about the modern game and will not accept anything positive about it. Oooo, I don't know about that. Both different types of props. Wards started off as a centre and had a bit more pace than Graham, but Grahams ball passing skills are better. Graham doesn't do so much of that commit the line and pass moves nowadays. More of a tackle and metre maker. Wardy was a bust the line and offload guy. He never stopped doing that either. To hit just right (not bludgeon) and offload is a special skill. Grahams been good, but Wardy by a fraction for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Oooo, I don't know about that. Both different types of props. Wards started off as a centre and had a bit more pace than Graham, but Grahams ball passing skills are better. Graham doesn't do so much of that commit the line and pass moves nowadays. More of a tackle and metre maker. Wardy was a bust the line and offload guy. He never stopped doing that either. To hit just right (not bludgeon) and offload is a special skill. Grahams been good, but Wardy by a fraction for me. Ward is the best prop I have seen play for GB/England. But I was just saying that Graham's passing game is better and probably more rounded. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agbrigg Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Forget James Graham and Harry Pinner, as good as they are/where I think Don Fox could out play them both as a prop with exceptional skills. He also had a great kicking game far better than many half backs of today. Having said all that for a player to start as a scrum half, move to the back row and finish as a prop takes some doing, and it could never happen in todays game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fairfolly Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 I will throw in a conundrum for you.How does anybody think Mal Reilly would have gone in todays game By the way I am not a Cas.Fan and have watched and played the game since 1950.I am interested to know your comments.My opinion for what it is worth ,the best all round forward I have seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Frightful Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Harry Pinner was so good he used to be allowed to tie Steve Norton's bootlaces occasionally. Hull FC....The Sons of God... (Well, we are about to be crucified on Good Friday) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wollo Wollo Wayoo Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Harry Pinner was so good he used to be allowed to tie Steve Norton's bootlaces occasionally. But Harry never deemed Knocker fit enough to return the compliment and always had to lace his own This world was never meant for one as beautiful as me. Wakefield Trinity RLFC 2012 - 2014 "The wasted years" 2013, 2014 & 2015 Official Magic Weekend "Whipping Boys" 2017 - The year the dream disappeared under Grix's left foot. 2018 - The FinniChezz Bromance 2019 - The Return of the Prodigal Son Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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