Lessons for other clubs from Hull KR's renaissance?

[JohnM]

To avoid diverting the Bradford thread, maybe we could here discuss the lessons that clubs might learn from how Hull KR have risen from the depths of despair all those years ago to become the mighty Championship powerhouse they are today.

"Along with their local rivals, Rovers pioneered the recruitment of overseas players, with the likes of Gary Prohm and Mark Broadhurst from New Zealand and John Dorahy from Australia illuminating sides coached for an astonishing 14 years by Roger Millward. Their move to a new Craven Park has been a particular failure. The inaccessible and uninviting nature of their windswept new stadium has been a factor in Rovers' declining crowds."

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby-league-hull-kr-finances-hit-rock-bottom-1282250.html

[The Parksider]

20 hours ago, JohnM said:

To avoid diverting the Bradford thread, maybe we could here discuss the lessons that clubs might learn from how Hull KR have risen from the depths of despair all those years ago to become the mighty Championship powerhouse they are today.

 

Well it's worth pointing out how HKR were one the mighty powerhouse of the First Division as RL Champions in 1979 and again in 1984 and 1985. Their average crowds got up as far as nearly 9,000.

At the time they were playing out of the crumbling high maintenance cost dump of Craven Park their old ground they had had since 1922. £100K was spent on safety work in one go.

They were going bust as they also had a deficit of £500,000 so they had to sell up and leave by 1989 by which time......       they had suffered relegation from the top flight.

This spectacular mismanagement of money, mismanagement of success and the ground problems they suffered echoes entirely/exactly the situation the Bradford Bulls got into and you are quite right to indicate that Hull.K.R. are no model for Bradford to follow, indeed Bradfords failures were the same failures HKR suffered.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

It's nowhere near the parallel it looks. Hull KR just went into administration, bloody painful those years were, but re-cut its cloth by hook or by crook and when a local white knight arrived then very slowly built itself back. Bradford have already been through that point, and instead of adjusting and doing some patient club rebuilding doubled down with money they didn't have ending in the death of the company.

 

It depresses me, and you can only feel sorry for their fans. We had plenty of idiots circling our near-carcass in those critical years too (usually with links across the river), and we were lucky to dodge the coup de grace to fight another day.

[deluded pom?]

7 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

It's nowhere near the parallel it looks. Hull KR just went into administration, bloody painful those years were, but re-cut its cloth by hook or by crook and when a local white knight arrived then very slowly built itself back. Bradford have already been through that point, and instead of adjusting and doing some patient club rebuilding doubled down with money they didn't have ending in the death of the company.

 

It depresses me, and you can only feel sorry for their fans. We had plenty of idiots circling our near-carcass in those critical years too (usually with links across the river), and we were lucky to dodge the coup de grace to fight another day.

Do you also remember the time our friends from east of the river gave us no help circa 1998 when your chairman Barry Lilley blocked Hull regrouping and dropping down a division? What goes around etc.

[Old Frightful]

8 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

We had plenty of idiots circling our near-carcass in those critical years too (usually with links across the river)

Care to elaborate on that?

[deluded pom?]

36 minutes ago, Old Frightful said:

Care to elaborate on that?

Just more hearsay OF. Lemon corkscrews the lot of 'em.

[The Parksider]

14 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

It's nowhere near the parallel it looks. Hull KR just went into administration, bloody painful those years were, but re-cut its cloth by hook or by crook and when a local white knight arrived then very slowly built itself back. Bradford have already been through that point, and instead of adjusting and doing some patient club rebuilding doubled down with money they didn't have ending in the death of the company.

Well with respect HKR fans would say that wouldn't they?

There's arguably a paralell in both clubs not having their own academy now

It's an exact parallel right through to going into administration, the only difference is Neil Hudgell had half a £Million a year to put in and nobody has come forward to do that for the Bulls.

At least Bulls crashed out of SL because they didn't have a rich investor, HKR crashed out with one. You have to ask had Rovers not dropped lucky on Neil where would they be now?

[geek]

11 hours ago, deluded pom? said:

Just more hearsay OF. Lemon corkscrews the lot of 'em.

No, Tim Wilby

http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/how-hull-kr-survived-administration-20-years-on/story-30034317-detail/story.html

[deluded pom?]

50 minutes ago, geek said:

No, Tim Wilby

http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/how-hull-kr-survived-administration-20-years-on/story-30034317-detail/story.html

So what was the "controversial offer from Black and Whites chairman Tim Wilby"? Until you can confirm what that offer was it's still hearsay.

[stevereed100]

15 hours ago, deluded pom? said:

Just more hearsay OF. Lemon corkscrews the lot of 'em.

Cultured response and Roy Boy piles in!

Parkside ..Never heard of City of Hull Academy.......Already a great supply line for both Hull and Rovers and certainly the route to go in an area that shares a talent pool.

Since when were Neil and Rob Crosslands investors? Fans with no desire to make a profit.

Talk of Barry Lilley and Tim Wilby just a distraction to stir it, you Hull girls just cannot keep it shut.

[deluded pom?]

7 hours ago, stevereed100 said:

Cultured response and Roy Boy piles in!

Parkside ..Never heard of City of Hull Academy.......Already a great supply line for both Hull and Rovers and certainly the route to go in an area that shares a talent pool.

Since when were Neil and Rob Crosslands investors? Fans with no desire to make a profit.

Talk of Barry Lilley and Tim Wilby just a distraction to stir it, you Hull girls just cannot keep it shut.

You didn't get any irony for Christmas then steve?

[Lowdesert]

13 hours ago, geek said:

No, Tim Wilby

http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/how-hull-kr-survived-administration-20-years-on/story-30034317-detail/story.html

The less said about Wilby the better.

[The Parksider]

On 14/01/2017 at 11:21 PM, stevereed100 said:

1. Parkside ..Never heard of City of Hull Academy.......Already a great supply line for both Hull and Rovers and certainly the route to go in an area that shares a talent pool.

2. Since when were Neil and Rob Crosslands investors? .

1. The Hull City academy will now be a supply line for Hull FC who will offer the one or two lads who will shine each year Superleague Contracts. The best players will all go to Hull. Even if HKR go back up they and their dads know where they need to sign and that's with a top class club, who wins trophies. The last thing FC will do is "share". 

2. Since they came in and propped Hull KR up with their own money, had they not done so you may well need to ponder where you may be now? Look no further than Bradford.

The "Symbiotic" relationship Hull/HKR supposedly had didn't pump up the numbers of kids playing in Hull and the universes greatest Derby slowly lost it's appeal until HKR couldn't sell it out in a smaller ground. Go steady having a go at fellow clubs good sir.

[stevereed100]

Instead of spouting your party line have you analysed the outcomes of the City Academy in the first year? Rovers to date seem to have done OK in their pro signings. The pull of a SL team will always be there if Hull or Rovers spend time in the Championship but you ignore the loyalties of the local youth and the fact that some players prefer to be in a team offering more week to week playing opportunities. To date there is little evidence that Hull are the senior partner in the Academy....but that wouldn't suit would it?

You describe Hull as a top class club, that may be true but Rovers are not far behind and certainly offer a route into top class careers for local youngsters.

Then you want to slag off the Derby. Consider the fact that we have been playing each other 4 times a year and been a jewel in the Millennium weekend schedule. 

Even the recent Derby pulled in 8000 for a nonsense game in early January with Hull treating it as a chance to run out its Academy players hiding its stars from exposure.

I for one can see a full house if we draw each other in the Cup or middle sevens this year.

And you hate the fact that our supporters inc Neil and Rob did what supporters do and helped the club survive and build.

Parksider give up, your agenda of one club in Hull is further away than ever.

[The Parksider]

11 minutes ago, stevereed100 said:

Parksider give up, your agenda of one club in Hull is further away than ever.

I dropped that agenda some time ago Steve. 

My current agenda is one club in Bradford, not none.

What was your agenda with all the stuff you posted on the Bradford thread BTW?

 

 

[HKRBob]

The situation Rovers were in during the late 80s and 90s may draw some similarities with the Bradford situation. A once successful club went down and suffered some financial difficulties on the way, which got much worse as a result of relegation - mismanagement of the club and it's finances were a big factor for both. That said you could spend just as long detailing the differences.

If those similarities continue to bear out, then Bradford will have a lot more pain on the horizon, waiting for an investor with the clout to have a go at funding a promotion charge. Just as I don't believe that Rovers have the financial clout to be in the Championship for long without unfortunately going the same way.

The arguments about the respective academies are irrelevant as for all their flaws Bradford have always (at least in my view) had a worthwhile academy system.

The only salvation for both clubs is to get back into SL where the Sky money cures some of the woes. This will be tricky feat as I feel that the middle 8's system stacks the deck in favour of the SL clubs, which makes Leigh's promotion such an achievement for them and our relegation such a disaster for us. 

 

 

[Roy Boy]

On 14/01/2017 at 11:21 PM, stevereed100 said:

Cultured response and Roy Boy piles in!

Talk of Barry Lilley and Tim Wilby just a distraction to stir it, you Hull girls just cannot keep it shut.

I'd hardly call liking a post because it amused me "piling in"!

And don't get me started on those 2 !!!

[stevereed100]

Easily amused.....What was the joke, or funny?

 

 

[stevereed100]

2 hours ago, The Parksider said:

 

What was your agenda with all the stuff you posted on the Bradford thread BTW?

 

My agenda was purely frustration at 80 odd pages with no urgency to bring it to a solution.

I would not like to see any club go out of existence, no particular preference for a side blind to the need to cut its cloth. Odsal is an awful ground totally unsuitable to a modern game and unsustainable.

Hopefully Bradford will start afresh with a realistic plan recognising the need to build from small beginnings powered by a commited fan base.

[Roy Boy]

9 minutes ago, stevereed100 said:

Easily amused.....What was the joke, or funny?

 

 

I found the term Lemon Corkscrew amusing :-)

You are rather tetchy, I can see this being a long season!

[deluded pom?]

1 hour ago, Roy Boy said:

I found the term Lemon Corkscrew amusing :-)

You are rather tetchy, I can see this being a long season!

As Miss Karen Carpenter once said "We've only just begun".

[super major]

4 hours ago, stevereed100 said:

My agenda was purely frustration at 80 odd pages with no urgency to bring it to a solution.

I would not like to see any club go out of existence, no particular preference for a side blind to the need to cut its cloth. Odsal is an awful ground totally unsuitable to a modern game and unsustainable.

Hopefully Bradford will start afresh with a realistic plan recognising the need to build from small beginnings powered by a commited fan base.

The 80 pages are over a very short time when you consider the complexities involved. I would imagine the RFL and  potential investors would have preffered a quick solution.

You stated that Bradford should be demoted as a matter of course. You forgot to mention that when your lot did the dirty on a lot of local business's they did not get relegated. And you forgot to mention the questionable help received from Hull council which Bradford could have done with from theirs. This was all before the marvellous Neil and don't forget it was on his watch you got relegated again. Whose fault was that?

 

How do you know Odsal is unsustainable?

[stevereed100]

It was definitely not Neils fault we got relegated. Seem to remember at least 2 drop goals in successive matches that beat us......We were relegated because we lost games, how do you blame Neil for that?

Odsal is unsustainable! It is big and ugly, too big for crowds in Super League never mind the lower leagues.

Just look at the grounds that have been brought in in recent years, manageable and affordable.

Would any club choose to play there?

When did the RFL last choose to stage a big game there? 

[HKRBob]

1 hour ago, super major said:

The 80 pages are over a very short time when you consider the complexities involved. I would imagine the RFL and  potential investors would have preffered a quick solution.

You stated that Bradford should be demoted as a matter of course. You forgot to mention that when your lot did the dirty on a lot of local business's they did not get relegated. And you forgot to mention the questionable help received from Hull council which Bradford could have done with from theirs. This was all before the marvellous Neil and don't forget it was on his watch you got relegated again. Whose fault was that?

How do you know Odsal is unsustainable?

I can't recall this questionable help from the council you speak of during our administration, which is not to say they haven't aided us before or since.

We were in administration for over 3 years. During this time no one wanted to buy us and with no prospect of creditors being paid there was no point in liquidation either. We received no help whatsoever from the RFL, the local council or any other club.

Hull KR went into a CVA rather than liquidate and paid an agreed amount to creditors - a small amount (most were 'club sympathetic' or pragmatic enough to assist in this). That's what we did and so after long years of administration we had long years of repayments, CVA and all the restrictions that imposes.

I don't agree with any plan to demote Bradford, as the 12 point deduction paired with the lack of time and resources leaves Bradford with plenty of penalty for what has occurred. But to say we got off with ours scot-free is patently wrong.

 

[super major]

22 hours ago, HKRBob said:

I can't recall this questionable help from the council you speak of during our administration, which is not to say they haven't aided us before or since.

We were in administration for over 3 years. During this time no one wanted to buy us and with no prospect of creditors being paid there was no point in liquidation either. We received no help whatsoever from the RFL, the local council or any other club.

Hull KR went into a CVA rather than liquidate and paid an agreed amount to creditors - a small amount (most were 'club sympathetic' or pragmatic enough to assist in this). That's what we did and so after long years of administration we had long years of repayments, CVA and all the restrictions that imposes.

I don't agree with any plan to demote Bradford, as the 12 point deduction paired with the lack of time and resources leaves Bradford with plenty of penalty for what has occurred. But to say we got off with ours scot-free is patently wrong.

 

I was not referring to help you got from the council during administration but highlighting the help you did get over the selling of the old CP and the building of the new CP.

That help such as this was not available to Northern

I am glad HKR survived the horrible process of administration/CVA  but Rovers did not get relegated as Stevereed seemed to want