Saint Toppy

Our new position in the EU

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1 hour ago, Saintslass said:

Well, I thought May's speech was excellent 

She made it clear that we are exiting the single market, which is obvious to those of us with a brain in full working order given that EU leaders have consistently made it clear that we cannot remain a member of the single market without also retaining free movement of people.

She said she was open to some negotiation over the customs union, which is fair enough.

And the pound had its biggest one day rise since 2008! 

Sorry I've trimmed your post, but I've kept your main points.

"I thought May's speech was excellent". Get away! You didn't! Well, you could knock me down with a rugby union tackle!

"She made it clear that we are exiting the single market, which is obvious to those of us with a brain in full working order given that EU leaders have consistently made it clear that we cannot remain a member of the single market without also retaining free movement of people." The Leave mob didn't say that, though. That was one of the big lies! See the earlier posts by gj and Griff

"She said she was open to some negotiation over the customs union, which is fair enough." She has to be open to negotiation over just about everything, doesn't she? Including all those things she doesn't really want to negotiate about because she hopes the Europeans will just cave in and let her have her way.

"And the pound had its biggest one day rise since 2008!" Yes! From its lowest point in ages! Whoopee! I'm so excited.

 

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3 hours ago, Saintslass said:

Canada just completed one.  Yes, that took seven years, but we start from a different point: we have equivalence with the other 27 states.  So there is no haggling over product standards or what have you.

I think ignoring the fact it took Canada 7 years is quite dangerous, I view that as a warning.  The standards may be equivalent now but unless we are happy to be governed by EU rules in future there is no guarantee they will remain equivalent which is what will be required.  Also, a lot of these standards are the "pesky" EU rules that we are apparently trying to rid ourselves of.

 

International diplomacy and trade deals are hard and to assume otherwise feels naïve to me.

Edited by SE4Wire

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2 hours ago, tonyXIII said:

"And the pound had its biggest one day rise since 2008!" Yes! From its lowest point in ages! Whoopee! I'm so excited.

 

In fact from a 30 year low against the dollar. Talk about grasping at straws

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Like a lot of sensible people i'm excited  that your getting out.

Edited by frank

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14 hours ago, Futtocks said:

At least she's finally said something vaguely substantial on the subject.

Typical Remoaner wanting a running commentary and for Glorious Britannia to show our hand to the Hun before we even sit down at the negotiating table.

Have you never played poker before?

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9 hours ago, ckn said:

By your definitions, you've described someone who would happily watch the world burn just as long as she was still Prime Minister when it happened.  Has she actually looked at the opposition?  She can afford to take a decision that splits the party almost along 1992-97 lines and still comfortably win in a general election in 2020, in fact, she could probably stand up and announce 50% taxes on those earning under £25,000 and still win going by the state of the Labour party.  There is no immediate, mid-term or long-term need for her to overtly shore up the Tory party, she's blatantly put her internal party politics a very long way ahead of the country.

Gibbering moron may not be the right term but I think I'm getting to the position where I'd rather have Maggie Thatcher in power than her, and that's me quite comfortably saying this coming from a mining family that suffered greatly under her power.

 

8 hours ago, tonyXIII said:

She is the Prime Minister of the country. Your statement above is worrying. It may be true, but it is worrying that the Prime Minister puts her party above her nation.

 

Surely, in terms of interpreting her actions, it makes far more sense.  To put another gloss on it, she inherited chaos and is bringing stability.  Stabilizing the Government is an important part of that.

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10 hours ago, shrek said:

Touched on in the other now closed threads, I look forward to the legal challenge against the invoking of Article 127.  Of course, everyone knew the vote to leave the EU, was a vote to leave the Single Market, not once did anyone on the leave campaign ever suggest we could stay in the Single Market, no not once...............

 

Liar! It was very clear that this was a vote to control immigration, leave the single market etc despite that not being the ballot question.  There is no way* that Leave campaigned to minorities from former Commonwealth countries telling them that leaving the EU would make it easier for their families to join them here.

* They did. But it doesn't matter because remoaners or something.

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15 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Ah another 'expert' with an apocalyptic rant in a desperate attempt to flog a few more copies of his book that's gathering dust on bookstore shelves

Except he's not predicting apocalypse, not really.  Just stating that the hard work is still to come.  Some of it quite basic - for example within two years we need to know what is to happen to the EU nationals here, how that is to be done (and to have implemented that) and the ongoing legal framework for it - and a lot of it very complex, some of which is now out of Britain's control as to how it will pan it.

If you shriek Project Fear in reaction to that then there's a serious problem with reality amongst the Brexit cheer squad.

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A few more years of pointless guesswork on how things will turn out based on nothing more than personal prejudices. A deal will be reached, the Remainers will deem it to be catastrophic, the Leavers will hail it as majestic. 

The only thing of any certainty is the Labour party will continue to have no coherent position on the whole thing.

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1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

this was a vote to control immigration

Lets see how that works with a soft Irish border!  The good people of Calais must be delighted!

 

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11 hours ago, Saintslass said:

I think she is putting Scotland firmly in its place. 

And this is why many English are hated in Scotland.

Just like when you didnt like the UK being put in ita place by the EU.

Appalling sentiment.

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In certain ways it was a good speech. We did get some clarity on what the Government wants, giving the lie to the notion that you don't give away your 'negotiating mandate'. We now know what we are aiming for, and if it all comes together there is a coherence with the result of the referendum (we didn't vote on any particular manifesto, so why not just be out of everything).

It doesn't take a genius to know the real test now comes in the delivery. It will take incredible manpower to do all of the proper research, the negotiations, work through all of the decisions, and check the legal, political and operational coherence of the whole package. I'm heartened that the Brexiteers on here have such confidence in our civil servants, because of they pull it off it will be the greatest administrative achievement in this country's history.

In 2013, Cameron gave a well-received speech at the Bloomberg offices in London in which he set out a list of moderately ambitious reforms he wanted to negotiate within the EU, with a referendum at the end. As it was, he succeeded in holding the referendum - not much else.

Yesterday, May set out how she would reset the legislative framework of our country, deliver a Customs deal with no precedent, negotiate a whole series of trade deals with trade blocs around the world, and negotiate the UK's exit from the European Union. All in two years.

Well, she is going to be busy.

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9 hours ago, SE4Wire said:

I think ignoring the fact it took Canada 7 years is quite dangerous, I view that as a warning.  The standards may be equivalent now but unless we are happy to be governed by EU rules in future there is no guarantee they will remain equivalent which is what will be required.  Also, a lot of these standards are the "pesky" EU rules that we are apparently trying to rid ourselves of.

 

International diplomacy and trade deals are hard and to assume otherwise feels naïve to me.

I don't see why people are getting so worked up about standards. Some of our national standards across several areas are now aligned to those on the continent but certainly not all of them. If the EU change their standards in the future we don't have to change to British ones to match. Companies that trade or work overseas will just work to the standards of that particular country just as we do now with countries like the US.

Almost the entire construction industry in the UK work to British Standards not European standards (with the exception of some elements of structures who now use Eurocodes) because the British standards are far better than those used across Europe (only really the US has equivalent standards to ours). When British companies work overseas they just work to those countries standards and when foreign companies work over here they work to British standards. That's always been the way and us leaving the EU will make no difference. Likewise with Health & Safety, Britain has very much lead the way in this area to the point where many EU countries have adopted our standards and incorporated them into their own systems.

Companies will just work to the standards & rules of the country or region they are working in. A company who exports a product globally will already either make numerous versions to meet the standards of each of the countries or just make 1 version that complies with every standard in every country they export to.

What the EU currently has the power to do is to decide minimum requirements and force every country and company within the EU to adhere to them. They don't have to adopt a European standard just make sure that their own standards meet the minimum requirements. Leaving the EU will remove this requirement and allow individual companies the option to choose whether their products meet the minimum EU standards or not based on their target market. If a British company makes a product purely for the UK market and the EU changes its requirement standards in the future then that British company wont have to change its product to match unless it wants to start selling it into the EU, where as now they would automatically have to change incurring costs with no benefits.

Edited by Saint Toppy
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3 hours ago, Bob8 said:

 

Surely, in terms of interpreting her actions, it makes far more sense.  To put another gloss on it, she inherited chaos and is bringing stability.  Stabilizing the Government is an important part of that.

I understand what you are saying and why, however I would like to think that the country is more important than a political party. I accept that there is a "cart and horse" argument here. A stable political party my be better able to bring stability to the nation, after all, an unstable political party has just brought chaos and bitterness to the nation.

I think I am too naive for this world. ;)

 

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"Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market" - Daniel Hannan MEP

"Only a madman would actually leave the [single] market" - Owen Paterson MP, Vote Leave backer

"Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing." - Nigel Farage, UKIP Leader

"Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK" - Arron Banks, Leave.EU founder

Still waiting for any Brexiter to explain why I am delusional/misunformed for saying we never voted to leave the Single Market. Can't see me getting an answer though... 

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4 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

"Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market" - Daniel Hannan MEP

"Only a madman would actually leave the [single] market" - Owen Paterson MP, Vote Leave backer

"Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing." - Nigel Farage, UKIP Leader

"Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK" - Arron Banks, Leave.EU founder

Still waiting for any Brexiter to explain why I am delusional/misunformed for saying we never voted to leave the Single Market. Can't see me getting an answer though... 

I'm genuinely not comparing our current situation to the regime in 1984 but this whole subject reminds me very strongly of the bit where the enemy changed and everyone was expected to pretend they were the real enemy all along.

Last summer: "No, of course we don't want to leave the Single Market, that'd be ridiculous, same with the customs union, we're only talking about leaving the EU political mechanism"

Now: "No, of course it makes sense to leave the Single Market, we can't be held hostage by these EU mechanisms that just hold us back, why would anyone think anything else?  Any other option is just ridiculous."

Doubleplusungood.

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4 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

"Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market" - Daniel Hannan MEP

"Only a madman would actually leave the [single] market" - Owen Paterson MP, Vote Leave backer

"Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing." - Nigel Farage, UKIP Leader

"Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK" - Arron Banks, Leave.EU founder

Still waiting for any Brexiter to explain why I am delusional/misunformed for saying we never voted to leave the Single Market. Can't see me getting an answer though... 

Brexiters - "#fakenews #fakenews #fakenews #fakenews"

(Despite video evidence to the contrary)

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2 minutes ago, ckn said:

I listened to the interview; no recognition that the EU's interests may actually change as they seek to manoeuvre negotiations to favour them as the UK becomes a competitor rather than a member. I really hope he's right but lots of blue sky optimism being thrown around; the reality may be a little bit different. 

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42 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

"Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market" - Daniel Hannan MEP

"Only a madman would actually leave the [single] market" - Owen Paterson MP, Vote Leave backer

"Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing." - Nigel Farage, UKIP Leader

"Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK" - Arron Banks, Leave.EU founder

Still waiting for any Brexiter to explain why I am delusional/misunformed for saying we never voted to leave the Single Market. Can't see me getting an answer though... 

Still banging the same old drum using quotes from people expressing their own personal opinion, none of who are actually in Government positions and making decisions

Seem to remember a certain chancellor telling us that if we voted leave then there would be an immediate emergency budget where he would announce £15Bn of tax rises and £15Bn of cuts to cover the immediate shortfall

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28 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Still banging the same old drum using quotes from people expressing their own personal opinion, none of who are actually in Government positions and making decisions

I'm not discussing any personal opinion. I'm discussing the topic of the referendum. If so many prominent, informed Leavers seem to think that Single Market membership is an option rather than something we automatically lose when leaving, to then claim the referendum was on the Single Market means the Leavers were 1) lying 2) completely misinformed. Which is it? 

Very surprised that May has come out and explained her "strategy". Has nobody explained to her that a complex negotiation process is exactly like a game of poker and we shouldn't reveal our hand until the absolute last minute? I seem to recall a couple members of this forum claiming that revealing what we wanted was a ridiculous idea that put us at a disadvantage. 

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31 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Still banging the same old drum using quotes from people expressing their own personal opinion, none of who are actually in Government positions and making decisions

Seem to remember a certain chancellor telling us that if we voted leave then there would be an immediate emergency budget where he would announce £15Bn of tax rises and £15Bn of cuts to cover the immediate shortfall

They were the leaders and PR puff pieces of the Leave campaigns, or was what they said just meant to be ignored like the promise to give the NHS £350m extra per week?

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11 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

I'm not discussing any personal opinion. I'm discussing the topic of the referendum. If so many prominent, informed Leavers seem to think that Single Market membership is an option rather than something we automatically lose when leaving, to then claim the referendum was on the Single Market means the Leavers were 1) lying 2) completely misinformed. Which is it? 

 

But you are !

You've quoted the personal opinions of various people who supported the vote leave campaign, none of which were or are in any positions to make any decisions.

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9 minutes ago, ckn said:

They were the leaders and PR puff pieces of the Leave campaigns, or was what they said just meant to be ignored like the promise to give the NHS £350m extra per week?

Should the words of the former Prime minister and chancellor have just been ignored then during the campaign, like the threat of the immediate emergency budget with cuts & tax rises ?

Surely the people actually in power at the time would be more believable than people who aren't. Did you believe Cameron & Osborne any more than you believed Farage ?

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