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Saint Toppy

Our new position in the EU

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1 minute ago, Futtocks said:

Mentioned on 'The Grand Tour' today was the figure that, in the time Jaguar/Landrover took to sell 200,000 vehicles, each of their mid-luxury rivals (Audi, Mercedes, BMW) had sold 8 million. The next-largest British-owned car manufacturer is probably Caterham or the London Cab Company. All the other big names are owned by foreign companies.

Jaguar. Indian. Although I doubt that it’ll move abroad for its core. 

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2 hours ago, gingerjon said:

There's a lot of belief out there that we're heading to a very soft Brexit, or no Brexit at all.

The pound does better when that belief is out there, less well when the traders realise that a hard Brexit is still the most likely outcome.

Exciting, isn't it?

If Theresa May stays in power we're headed to some kind of medium Brexit. More distant than Norway, closer than Canada. About where Ukraine are.

But if she gets ousted her successor is likely to be a hardliner 

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56 minutes ago, bowes said:

If Theresa May stays in power we're headed to some kind of medium Brexit. More distant than Norway, closer than Canada. About where Ukraine are.

But if she gets ousted her successor is likely to be a hardliner 

Very little that the zombie husk of Theresa May has gabbled suggests anything but hollow defiance and alliteration.

The really capable, realpolitik and ruthless Tories are hanging back 'til May crucifies herself and stumbles into the scapegoat role. They don't want to take the blame for the Brexit clusterf*ck - they just want the rich pickings from the aftermath.

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6 hours ago, Futtocks said:

Very little that the zombie husk of Theresa May has gabbled suggests anything but hollow defiance and alliteration.

The really capable, realpolitik and ruthless Tories are hanging back 'til May crucifies herself and stumbles into the scapegoat role. They don't want to take the blame for the Brexit clusterf*ck - they just want the rich pickings from the aftermath.

It is easy foresee a situation where are deal is made clear, and the Government collapse, while a UKIP/hard Tory and a progressive alliance form to fight.

Easy enough to foresee that it might be avoided.  I suspect there will be no clear deal presented.

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9 hours ago, bowes said:

If Theresa May stays in power we're headed to some kind of medium Brexit. More distant than Norway, closer than Canada. About where Ukraine are.

But if she gets ousted her successor is likely to be a hardliner 

Yes, I have often thought that if we could be a bit more like Ukraine we would return to our rightful place as a great nation. What ambition, so exciting.

Edited by Just Browny
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50 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

Yes, I have often thought that if we could be a bit more like Ukraine we would return to our rightful place as a great nation. What ambition, so exciting.

I mean in terms of their relationship with the EU. Close regulatory alignment but the end result of the deal will give them the best access to the single market of any country without freedom of movement (which I can't see the current government agreeing to, but could see Labour agreeing to; they would have to compensate low earners some way to prevent it losing them a lot of Northern and Midlands working class seats). The Association Agreement also encourages defence and security cooperation which Theresa May would be keen on 

Edited by bowes

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5 hours ago, Just Browny said:

Yes, I have often thought that if we could be a bit more like Ukraine we would return to our rightful place as a great nation. What ambition, so exciting.

:D

It could be put as being more like Canada than Romania if you prefer!

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Politicians should stop presuming and start listening on Brexit
https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/politicians-should-stop-presuming-and-start-listening-on-brexit/

The report is fairly long, but interesting, if you want to see what happens when people with strongly held, diverse opinions come together, are given lots of facts and the time to digest them and then debate complex issues with each other. (*)

THE REPORT OF THE CITIZENS’ ASSEMBLY ON BREXIT
http://citizensassembly.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Citizens-Assembly-on-Brexit-Report.pdf

(*) In a more sane world, Parliament would behave like this, instead of the yah-boo playground it has turned into with specific regard to Brexit.

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1 hour ago, John Drake said:

Politicians should stop presuming and start listening on Brexit
https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/politicians-should-stop-presuming-and-start-listening-on-brexit/

The report is fairly long, but interesting, if you want to see what happens when people with strongly held, diverse opinions come together, are given lots of facts and the time to digest them and then debate complex issues with each other. (*)

THE REPORT OF THE CITIZENS’ ASSEMBLY ON BREXIT
http://citizensassembly.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Citizens-Assembly-on-Brexit-Report.pdf

(*) In a more sane world, Parliament would behave like this, instead of the yah-boo playground it has turned into with specific regard to Brexit.

Exactly right - the Citizen's Assembly allowed people to compromise. Our government, through poor decisions and inaction over decades, has created the environment for Brexit and allowed the EU to become the bogeyman for their incompetence. Parliament is pretty yah-boo most of the time, when the MPs are actually there - I find PMQs embarassing to watch.

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19 hours ago, Futtocks said:

Mentioned on 'The Grand Tour' today was the figure that, in the time Jaguar/Landrover took to sell 200,000 vehicles, each of their mid-luxury rivals (Audi, Mercedes, BMW) had sold 8 million. The next-largest British-owned car manufacturer is probably Caterham or the London Cab Company. All the other big names are owned by foreign companies.

And of course Jaguar Land Rover is owned by Tata, an Indian company.

Still, the automotive industry has been a real success for Britain in the 21st century and credit to both the Labour & Coalition governments for bringing in a lot of overseas investment. Approx 1.6 million cars made here in 2017, 80% for export (mostly to the EU, obviously) plus billions of pounds of automotive components made in the UK.

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5 minutes ago, JonM said:

And of course Jaguar Land Rover is owned by Tata, an Indian company.

Still, the automotive industry has been a real success for Britain in the 21st century and credit to both the Labour & Coalition governments for bringing in a lot of overseas investment. Approx 1.6 million cars made here in 2017, 80% for export (mostly to the EU, obviously) plus billions of pounds of automotive components made in the UK.

The overseas investment for car production was actually initiated by Margaret Thatcher, in North East England with Nissan.  

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9 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

The overseas investment for car production was actually initiated by Margaret Thatcher, in North East England with Nissan.  

Was it part of her strategy to embrace the single market and the benefits she felt that would bring to the UK?

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7 minutes ago, shrek said:

Was it part of her strategy to embrace the single market and the benefits she felt that would bring to the UK?

That depends on what you understand by 'single market'.  The single market was the common market in the 1980s and had no four pillars.  Thatcher managed to capture Nissan because the collieries had all but gone and that was her way of reinvigorating the area, retraining those left unemployed by the ending of mining and dock work as it had traditionally been. I remember the arrival of Nissan and their novel approach to work.  Back in those days they used to offer tai chi sessions to staff to help with productivity.  I don't know whether they still do.  I think Nissan cars are the closest to being classified as British as I think about 45% of each car is built here rather than imported from the EU or elsewhere.  Still a way to go to get to the 51% required for origin but I believe Nissan is working on getting there before Brexit.

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9 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

That depends on what you understand by 'single market'.  The single market was the common market in the 1980s and had no four pillars.  Thatcher managed to capture Nissan because the collieries had all but gone and that was her way of reinvigorating the area, retraining those left unemployed by the ending of mining and dock work as it had traditionally been. I remember the arrival of Nissan and their novel approach to work.  Back in those days they used to offer tai chi sessions to staff to help with productivity.  I don't know whether they still do.  I think Nissan cars are the closest to being classified as British as I think about 45% of each car is built here rather than imported from the EU or elsewhere.  Still a way to go to get to the 51% required for origin but I believe Nissan is working on getting there before Brexit.

It would be fascinating to see what Thatcher in her pomp would have made of the current situation.

Can't help but think if it was her (in her prime) rather than Cameron who'd trotted off around Europe seeking concessions prior to Brexit we may very well have been in a different position now!

 

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1 hour ago, JonM said:

And of course Jaguar Land Rover is owned by Tata, an Indian company.

Still, the automotive industry has been a real success for Britain in the 21st century and credit to both the Labour & Coalition governments for bringing in a lot of overseas investment. Approx 1.6 million cars made here in 2017, 80% for export (mostly to the EU, obviously) plus billions of pounds of automotive components made in the UK.

I used Jaguar/Land Rover as the example, as it is the one that gets brought up every time someone tells me that those pesky Europeans will capitulate to all our demands, because they can't survive without "our" luxury vehicles.

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23 minutes ago, Futtocks said:

I used Jaguar/Land Rover as the example, as it is the one that gets brought up every time someone tells me that those pesky Europeans will capitulate to all our demands, because they can't survive without "our" luxury vehicles.

I thought they were going to capitulate because we buy their luxury vehicles

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12 minutes ago, Shadow said:

I thought they were going to capitulate because we buy their luxury vehicles

That was "Project Pessary". Bend over and take it like a man. Or maybe "Swallow this!" if you misread the instructions.

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1 hour ago, Saintslass said:

That depends on what you understand by 'single market'.  The single market was the common market in the 1980s and had no four pillars.

Wrong, of course.

The Single Market Act came into being in 1986 and had the four pillars at its very core: freedom of goods, capital, services and people. It was written by Arthur Cockfield: that's right, Thatcher's man in Brussels. A fine achievement.

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22 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

Wrong, of course.

The Single Market Act came into being in 1986 and had the four pillars at its very core: freedom of goods, capital, services and people. It was written by Arthur Cockfield: that's right, Thatcher's man in Brussels. A fine achievement.

You have to admit she/he posts with confidence. Lets see it weasel out of this one.

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3 hours ago, Saintslass said:

The overseas investment for car production was actually initiated by Margaret Thatcher, in North East England with Nissan.  

Because she saw a massive chance to export cars all across the EU and get investment from overseas.  She fought the EU to get it and get rules changed to allow it.  It was one of her greatest successes (yes she did have some).  

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1 hour ago, Just Browny said:

Wrong, of course.

The Single Market Act came into being in 1986 and had the four pillars at its very core: freedom of goods, capital, services and people. It was written by Arthur Cockfield: that's right, Thatcher's man in Brussels. A fine achievement.

You mean the Single European Act of 1987?  (Signed in 1986, enacted in 1987) The one which committed the EEC to a timetable moving towards the EU, the single market of today?

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44 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

Because she saw a massive chance to export cars all across the EU and get investment from overseas.  She fought the EU to get it and get rules changed to allow it.  It was one of her greatest successes (yes she did have some).  

As far as I can remember, the initial motivation for attracting Nissan was to give an area of massive unemployment some employment.  Thatcher created employment zones with competitive rates to attract foreign investors, for which she attracted a lot of criticism at the time from the opposition.

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3 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

As far as I can remember, the initial motivation for attracting Nissan was to give an area of massive unemployment some employment.  Thatcher created employment zones with competitive rates to attract foreign investors, for which she attracted a lot of criticism at the time from the opposition.

Nissan needed a market.  Without that Thatcher would not of been able to get them here.  The Market was the whole EU not just the UK.  Thatcher got the EU market opened to Nissan.  

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1 hour ago, Saintslass said:

You mean the Single European Act of 1987?  (Signed in 1986, enacted in 1987) The one which committed the EEC to a timetable moving towards the EU, the single market of today?

Yes, I do. I would be amazed if you could find an example of an international treaty or Act of Parliament dated according to when it came into effect, and that is why any student of EU law would refer to the SEA as being a the SEA of 1986.

It was Mrs Thatcher's document and she cheerfully used it to pave the way to greater European integration, as you rightly identify.

Edited by Just Browny
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