Saint Toppy

Our new position in the EU

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4 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

But you are !

You've quoted the personal opinions of various people who supported the vote leave campaign, none of which were or are in any positions to make any decisions.

Opinions, like the NHS £350m bus, expressed with the sole purpose of persuading people to vote leave. If these things were so inconsequential why say them in the first place?

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19 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

But you are !

You've quoted the personal opinions of various people who supported the vote leave campaign, none of which were or are in any positions to make any decisions.

So what you are saying is they are all misinformed, because they all thought that continued membership of the Single Market was an option? Whether they think that is our best option or not, the 4 people mentioned all seem to think that we can make a choice on our Single Market membership, rather than us not having a choice when we leave because a vote to leave the EU is a vote to leave the Single Market. Does it not alarm you that so many prominent Leave campaigners apparently didn't even know the implications of what they were campaigning for?   

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19 minutes ago, Griff9of13 said:

Opinions, like the NHS £350m bus, expressed with the sole purpose of persuading people to vote leave. If these things were so inconsequential why say them in the first place?

Opinions like there being an immediate emergency budget with £30Bn of tax rises and cuts, expressed with the sole purpose of persuading people to vote remain.

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4 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

So what you are saying is they are all misinformed, because they all thought that continued membership of the Single Market was an option? Whether they think that is our best option or not, the 4 people mentioned all seem to think that we can make a choice on our Single Market membership, rather than us not having a choice when we leave because a vote to leave the EU is a vote to leave the Single Market. Does it not alarm you that so many prominent Leave campaigners apparently didn't even know the implications of what they were campaigning for?   

I have no idea if they were misinformed or not, they were expressing their own personal opinions, just as were people on the remain side.

If you or anyone else chose to believe them and based their vote decision solely on those peoples comments without doing their own research or investigations then more fool them.

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6 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

I have no idea if they were misinformed or not, they were expressing their own personal opinions, just as were people on the remain side.

If you or anyone else chose to believe them and based their vote decision solely on those peoples comments without doing their own research or investigations then more fool them.

Rubbish. They were expressing the official position of the various leave campaigns that they represented. 

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12 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Opinions like there being an immediate emergency budget with £30Bn of tax rises and cuts, expressed with the sole purpose of persuading people to vote remain.

Oddly enough, under Osbourn that may have happened. Post brexit austerity was relaxed and £60bn of extra quantitative easing was introduced. So instead of raising money for that by raising taxes as Osbourn would have, the government have borrowed the money instead. So it looks like really we're in a doubly bad position. It's kept the economy in growth for now though. 

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9 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

I have no idea if they were misinformed or not, they were expressing their own personal opinions, just as were people on the remain side.

If you or anyone else chose to believe them and based their vote decision solely on those peoples comments without doing their own research or investigations then more fool them.

So to paraphrase...

Anyone who voted based on what the leaders of the Leave campaign was telling them was foolish.

Glad we've sorted that out then, if a little late.

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I thought that even after all of the talk about ending Freedom of Movement that the UK would come to some sort of compromise because they wouldn't want to be seen to be completely ending British citizens right to FOM. It is worrying that Theresa May has decided to put controlling immigration over everything else and at any cost.

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14 hours ago, Bob8 said:

Margaret Thatcher would happily watch the world burn for political caprice.  I do not see anything to miss there.

Her power base is depends on solidifying her position as leader of the Parliamentary Conservative party.  The opposition being weak mean that Conservative MP's do not have to unite together.  However, some of them are solidly anti-Europe and others have constituency associations who are overwhelmingly pro-Leave.  As the Labour party is in disarray, it is the Conservative party she has to worry about.

A stronger Labour party would actually give her more cause for hesitation rather than less.

A Facebook post I saw today covered this point, the view was that May was ending the Tory civil war by giving the anti-EU lot everything they wanted, a bit like a petulant toddler getting everything it wants at the cost of its better behaved siblings.

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I have a brilliant idea. How about the forums paper tigers get over to Stoke on Trent in the run up to the by election to explain on the doorstep  to the 70% of voters  why they were wrong and why they should had voted to remain. 

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Arrogant reaction from the Remain bunch over this. Bullying and hectoring as if the sky was going to fall in. We've had the vote, stop crying.

Edited by Johnoco
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9 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Arrogant reaction from the Remain bunch over this. Bullying and hectoring as if the sky was going to fall in. We've had the vote, stop crying.

I am part of that bunch.  I am not crying too much and I am only bullying and hectoring as much as I usually do.

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Just now, Bob8 said:

I am part of that bunch.  I am not crying too much and I am only bullying and hectoring as much as I usually do.

That's a given though. :tongue:

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12 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Arrogant reaction from the Remain bunch over this. Bullying and hectoring as if the sky was going to fall in. We've had the vote, stop crying.

Why is it arrogant to point out that that's not what was said by the Leave campaign, even by the most far-edge lot such as Farage, Hannan and Banks?

Also, I've had to put up with anti-EU ranting for decades, time for retribution :P

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2 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Still banging the same old drum using quotes from people expressing their own personal opinion, none of who are actually in Government positions and making decisions

Yes, quite, fancy quoting the leader of UKIP and there biggest backer who won 4 million votes in the last election, thats quite a sweeping dismissal of "personal opinions".

That said, does Boris count?

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I've an idea. Now we're starting to see what brexit actually means why don't we have another referendum at the end of all the negotiations. It will lay the argument of whether leaving the single market and cusoms union is included/excluded to rest forever. :rolleyes:

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52 minutes ago, Shadow said:

So to paraphrase...

Anyone who voted based on what the leaders of the Leave campaign was telling them was foolish.

Glad we've sorted that out then, if a little late.

Equally then

Anyone who voted based on what the leaders of the Remain campaign were telling them were foolish

Glad we've sorted that out then, if a little late.

 

There was enough freely available information out there that people could make up their own minds without having to consider anything the leaders from either party were saying.

Some people will have only listened to what these leaders (from both sides) were saying and voted according to which side they either believed or felt best represented their views.

Some people will have completely ignored what these leaders from both sides were saying and voted according to their own beliefs of the EU or based on information they obtained themselves.  

Others probably voted through a combination of both

 

Personally I pretty much ignored most of what both sides were saying when deciding which way to vote. I made a decision based on my opinion of the EU, what is it, how it operates, what it stands for and where it is heading compared to what I would want a future Britain to look like. Pretty much everyone acknowledges that the EU needs some serious reform. History tells us as an institution reform is slow to the point of being non-existent and the wishes of the citizens are being increasingly ignored in favour of the ideology of a few in Brussels. While I've always been broadly euro-sceptic I did hold out some hope that Cameron may have come back from his negotiations with some real changes and that may have seriously forced me to consider my decision. The fact he came back with absolutely nothing just showed that staying in the EU just meant a future heading down the same path, a direction I most definitely didn't want to see Britain be part of.

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1 hour ago, ckn said:

A Facebook post I saw today covered this point, the view was that May was ending the Tory civil war by giving the anti-EU lot everything they wanted, a bit like a petulant toddler getting everything it wants at the cost of its better behaved siblings.

Another aspect, is despite UKIP being awkward for the Labour party, they could be very awkward long term for the Conservative party.  Generally, the working class, nationalist parties tend in Europe tend to take more votes from the right than the left.  I had expected a fairly soft Brexit prompting a resurgence of UKIP.  By going well past what had been talked about, it would unite the Conservative party and undermine UKIP.  

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1 minute ago, Griff9of13 said:

I've an idea. Now we're starting to see what brexit actually means why don't we have another referendum at the end of all the negotiations. It will lay the argument of whether leaving the single market and cusoms union is included/excluded to rest forever. :rolleyes:

Because another referendum would be almost as meaningless as the vote in Parliament. Once A50 has been triggered the clock is ticking down to exit day. Holding another lengthy and costly referendum wont change the fact of us leaving regardless of the result. If the result rejects the deal and people start saying we want back in then we'll have to then have a 3rd referendum on re-joining because to re-join would be under a completely different set of terms & conditions to the ones we left. We would re-join without all our Veto's, without our rebate and adopting the Euro as our currency. What do we do then if people reject that option ?

Even the politicians realise that their vote will be nothing more than a last chance to try and get some minor changes added in. If they reject it outright then all they're doing is eating up the time left before we leave and increasing the risk of leaving with no signed deal.

 

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42 minutes ago, ckn said:

Why is it arrogant to point out that that's not what was said by the Leave campaign, even by the most far-edge lot such as Farage, Hannan and Banks?

Also, I've had to put up with anti-EU ranting for decades, time for retribution :P

Who cares anyway? Some people will trade with others, some won't. Some will get rich, some won't. Load of carp all of it.

Don't like the tone of 'stop this madness it's undemocratic' though. We had a vote, that's democracy Dennis.

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Just now, Johnoco said:

Who cares anyway? Some people will trade with others, some won't. Some will get rich, some won't. Load of carp all of it.

Don't like the tone of 'stop this madness it's undemocratic' though. We had a vote, that's democracy Dennis.

Yep, we had a vote.  We're doing it.  The Leave lot made a whole lot about restoring the primacy of Parliament then May completely does her damnedest to ignore it.  She doesn't even pretend to respect the convention that major policy decisions should be told to Parliament first.

I'm in no way complaining about us leaving the political union of the EU, that's done, my side lost.  I am not going to stop complaining about May gambling the nation's future simply so she can shore up future support for the Tory party.

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You are not entering into the new era of freedom in the right spirit, Craig.  My Dad voted Leave, everyone else in the family was Remain.  As we are a spread out family, everyone in the family who did not already have an Irish passport is getting one, other than my Dad who is complaining that he is being surrounded by Fenians.  “Democracy has spoken!”, I tell him –

“…the British people have spoken and demand your family become Fenian."  

I am quite enjoying it all.

Edited by Bob8
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1 hour ago, Johnoco said:

Arrogant reaction from the Remain bunch over this. Bullying and hectoring as if the sky was going to fall in. We've had the vote, stop crying.

I'd argue the only arrogance on display is totally ignoring the wishes of 48% of the country, and dare I say it a decent percentage of the 52% who actually voted to leave but nobody ever actually bothered to asertain what "flavour" of Brexit they wanted, so to appease parts of the Conservative party we're going "all in".

A less arrogant approach would have been to try and unite the country in the many months that have paseed since the vote and head into negotiations as one rather than a country at best spilt down the middle, at worst on the verge of breaking up and many years of bitter disputes.

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1 hour ago, Johnoco said:

Arrogant reaction from the Remain bunch over this. Bullying and hectoring as if the sky was going to fall in. We've had the vote, stop crying.

That is the first post in this thread to contain any bullying and hectoring.

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4 minutes ago, shrek said:

I'd argue the only arrogance on display is totally ignoring the wishes of 48% of the country, and dare I say it a decent percentage of the 52% who actually voted to leave but nobody ever actually bothered to asertain what "flavour" of Brexit they wanted, so to appease parts of the Conservative party we're going "all in".

A less arrogant approach would have been to try and unite the country in the many months that have paseed since the vote and head into negotiations as one rather than a country at best spilt down the middle, at worst on the verge of breaking up and many years of bitter disputes.

I am not sure arrogance comes in to it, from either side. The people have had their say, they will not get it on issues that risk dividing the Tory party, when the whole point was to unify that party.  Clearly, the 52% had different ideas of what they were voting for, but the people and their opinion is no longer a major issue.

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