Saint Toppy

Our new position in the EU

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2 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

That is the first post in this thread to contain any bullying and hectoring.

Then you should check out some of the condescending drivel from various cry baby Remainders. Wahhhh

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1 hour ago, ckn said:

A Facebook post I saw today covered this point, the view was that May was ending the Tory civil war by giving the anti-EU lot everything they wanted, a bit like a petulant toddler getting everything it wants at the cost of its better behaved siblings.

If the petulant toddler is the one that has the power, it is a good idea to mollilfy it.  

Am I really more cynical than everyone?

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Just now, Johnoco said:

Then you should check out some of the condescending drivel from various cry baby Remainders. Wahhhh

I am going to refute that, just as soon as I have finished beating up a Leaver over here.  And crying about it.

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8 minutes ago, shrek said:

I'd argue the only arrogance on display is totally ignoring the wishes of 48% of the country, and dare I say it a decent percentage of the 52% who actually voted to leave

The 48% were on the losing side, since when have we done stuff on the basis that X amount of people voted a certain way? 

The simple fact is that the majority of people voted to leave and the clever clever people don't like it. And so are busy hitting themselves with twigs saying 'we deserve anything the EU can dream up' whilst being furious at the lowlife thickos. Ha ha, screw them.

 

I'd be happy to die in poverty and in constant pain caused by not being in the EU, as long as it upset those pricks.

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2 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

I am going to refute that, just as soon as I have finished beating up a Leaver over here.  And crying about it.

Well, you're just proper mean. I'm going to tell my mum now. :ph34r:

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11 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

I am not sure arrogance comes in to it, from either side.

Not sure how you can say that, there's more than enough on both sides!

Ask the leave camp and they'll no doubt sight the "Liberal Elites" as has already been done above.

Ask the remain camp and you'll no doubt get a mixture, some worried that government ministers are doing the rounds today dropping in WWII references, others will sight the two fingers currently being waved at the SNP/The Scots, or Gibraltar or Northern Island, or the assumption that of course the EU will give us a deal better or at least equal to what we have now the Germans need to sell us cars etc etc!

If your not hearing any of that, I wish I lived were you did and carried an Irish passport!

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11 minutes ago, shrek said:

 

A less arrogant approach would have been to try and unite the country in the many months that have paseed since the vote and head into negotiations as one rather than a country at best spilt down the middle, at worst on the verge of breaking up and many years of bitter disputes.

And what exactly could have been done differently to 'unite' the country ?

For months after the result we still had the extreemists on the leave side demanding an immediate invoking of A50, and equally we had extreemists on the remain side claiming we should ignore the result and stay as we are because it was only 'advisory', not to mention the legal challenges that the Government than had to spend time going through. Even now we still have Herr Sturgeon refusing to cooperate in any way and having a hissy fit at anything she doesn't want, compromise and unity doesn't even enter into her vocabulary.

We'll never get unity until everyone accepts that we're leaving the EU, accepts that May is the leader who's making the decisions and then agrees to work with her to achieve the best possible outcome for the country instead of railing against her at every step.

May already has been involving the devolved governments in Scotland, Wales & NI as well as representatives from the City. Interesting to hear Davies yesterday that each of the Regional Mayors will also be invited to participate in talks and put their opinions across on the deal were aiming for. If the individual parties just want to argue & squabble because they're not going to get everything they want then you can hold as many internal 'unity' talks as you want, they'll be a waste of time if all the parties aren't interested in working together.

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9 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

The 48% were on the losing side, since when have we done stuff on the basis that X amount of people voted a certain way? 

The simple fact is that the majority of people voted to leave and the clever clever people don't like it. And so are busy hitting themselves with twigs saying 'we deserve anything the EU can dream up' whilst being furious at the lowlife thickos. Ha ha, screw them.

 

I'd be happy to die in poverty and in constant pain caused by not being in the EU, as long as it upset those pricks.

So your plan to unite the country and move it forward as a succesful independent nation includes ignoring 48% and not at least trying to bring them along with you and getting them to buy into the plan? 

Even as one of the thick remoaners with qualifications not dissimilar to Rodney Trotters, even I can spot a slight flaw in that plan!

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1 minute ago, Saint Toppy said:

.......Even now we still have Herr Sturgeon refusing to cooperate in any way and having a hissy fit at anything she doesn't want, compromise and unity doesn't even enter into her vocabulary.

We'll never get unity until everyone accepts that we're leaving the EU, accepts that May is the leader who's making the decisions and then agrees to work with her to achieve the best possible outcome for the country instead of railing against her at every step.

May already has been involving the devolved governments in Scotland, Wales & NI as well as representatives from the City. Interesting to hear Davies yesterday that each of the Regional Mayors will also be invited to participate in talks and put their opinions across on the deal were aiming for. If the individual parties just want to argue & squabble because they're not going to get everything they want then you can hold as many internal 'unity' talks as you want, they'll be a waste of time if all the parties aren't interested in working together.

Up to the bolded part, I thought your post very reasonable.  References to "Herr Sturgeon" show that up a bit.  The UK has every right to leave the EU.  Scotland has every right to leave the UK.  I accept both of these, as I am not a moaner.

The large majority accept that we are leaving the EU, including the majority of people who supported Remain.  Leaving the single market (assuming it is more than hot air) was not part of what was voted on as far as most high profile Leave leaders' public pronouncements were concerned, so is separate from accepting the vote.  While some (not myself) thought it wa inevitable, that was considered 'Project Fear' by many.  I understand why she is adopting this approach, but it is to do with internatl party politics.  

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4 minutes ago, shrek said:

So your plan to unite the country and move it forward as a succesful independent nation includes ignoring 48% and not at least trying to bring them along with you and getting them to buy into the plan? 

Even as one of the thick remoaners with qualifications not dissimilar to Rodney Trotters, even I can spot a slight flaw in that plan!

Why don't *they* accept they were in the minority and deal with it? Or are they only willing to buy into something they want?

Either way this topic bores me to tears so that's probably it for me. :)

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1 minute ago, Saint Toppy said:

And what exactly could have been done differently to 'unite' the country ?

Your right - I actually have no idea, we've taken the jump, we'll suffer as a result in the short to medium term and at best, after years of negotiations we'll get back to deals not unlike the ones we have in place today, so potentially it will all have been for nothing.

 

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1 minute ago, Johnoco said:

Why don't *they* accept they were in the minority and deal with it? Or are they only willing to buy into something they want?

Either way this topic bores me to tears so that's probably it for me. :)

In the minority on a very binery question, I wouldn't be so arrogant as to say for sure what flavour of Brexit the 52% thought they were voting for, but I suspect not all were voting for the hard Brexit we appear to be set for.

I'd have thought some thought going into the negotiation hoping to stay in the Single Market, with concessions would have delivered a form of Brexit that would have shut up all but the most ardent remainers.

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16 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

Up to the bolded part, I thought your post very reasonable.  References to "Herr Sturgeon" show that up a bit.  The UK has every right to leave the EU.  Scotland has every right to leave the UK.  I accept both of these, as I am not a moaner.

  

I make no apology for the terminology I use when talking about Sturgeon. Before the referendum she made demands that Scotland get a veto over the result, she got her vote and she was defeated democratically in parliament. Since the referendum she's made repeated demands that Scotland have the power to veto us leaving the EU, which she has no constitutional powers to do (which she seemingly can't accept). Now she's making demands that Scotland be treated completely differently and be able to remain within the EU, despite this being completely unfeasible and her having no constitutional grounds to enact.

Because she isn't getting her way she's refusing to cooperate in any way, instructing her MP's in Westminster to oppose anything and everything brought before parliament just to be awkward and demanding another referendum on an independent Scotland (despite there being no evidence of an actual shift in public opinion that this is what the Scots want). She wants Holyrood (which is effectively no more than a regional council) to have primacy over the national parliament in foreign affairs. Something she knows only too well that the devolution agreement doesn't permit. 

If anyone is being petulant, uncooperative and disruptive its her. 

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14 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

I make no apology for the terminology I use when talking about Sturgeon. Before the referendum she made demands that Scotland get a veto over the result, she got her vote and she was defeated democratically in parliament. Since the referendum she's made repeated demands that Scotland have the power to veto us leaving the EU, which she has no constitutional powers to do (which she seemingly can't accept). Now she's making demands that Scotland be treated completely differently and be able to remain within the EU, despite this being completely unfeasible and her having no constitutional grounds to enact.

Because she isn't getting her way she's refusing to cooperate in any way, instructing her MP's in Westminster to oppose anything and everything brought before parliament just to be awkward and demanding another referendum on an independent Scotland (despite there being no evidence of an actual shift in public opinion that this is what the Scots want). She wants Holyrood (which is effectively no more than a regional council) to have primacy over the national parliament in foreign affairs. Something she knows only too well that the devolution agreement doesn't permit. 

If anyone is being petulant, uncooperative and disruptive its her. 

I don't disagree with much of that; just the bit in bold. Scotland (the constituencies) on mass voted to remain in the EU; every single one of her MPs are therefore entitled to represent the views of their constituents. I have no doubt her intent is to demand another referendum for an independent Scotland but let's not forget her MPs are entitled to oppose what's put before them at Westminster. 

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34 minutes ago, shrek said:

That pretty much suggests that Trump intends to follow through with his earlier promise (or threat depending on how you view it). That being, that the US will walk away from the current NAFTA and immediately resurrect it without Mexico but include the UK. There will no doubt have to be some changes given there were different clauses between the US and Canada than there were between the US and Mexico on things like labour movement and differing tariff rates for Mexico on some goods, but the basic template of the trade agreement is there with just some of the fine detail needed to be agreed.

The only fly in the ointment may be Canada as many Canadians were actually opposed to the agreement last time round, but given their heavy reliance on US trade I'm sure they'll be willing to get a deal done.

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Boris just mentioned the war. He thinks he got away with it...

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9 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

I don't disagree with much of that; just the bit in bold. Scotland (the constituencies) on mass voted to remain in the EU; every single one of her MPs are therefore entitled to represent the views of their constituents. I have no doubt her intent is to demand another referendum for an independent Scotland but let's not forget her MPs are entitled to oppose what's put before them at Westminster. 

One of her biggest gripes is that Westminster is ignoring Scotland's wishes, conveniently forgetting that over 1M Scots actually voted leave and she's ignoring their wishes.

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1 hour ago, Johnoco said:

The 48% were on the losing side, since when have we done stuff on the basis that X amount of people voted a certain way? 

The simple fact is that the majority of people voted to leave and the clever clever people don't like it. And so are busy hitting themselves with twigs saying 'we deserve anything the EU can dream up' whilst being furious at the lowlife thickos. Ha ha, screw them.

 

I'd be happy to die in poverty and in constant pain caused by not being in the EU, as long as it upset those pricks.

When it became an irreversible choice.  It's not like a General Election.  We won't be able to change our minds in 5 years.

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43 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

I make no apology for the terminology I use when talking about Sturgeon. Before the referendum she made demands that Scotland get a veto over the result, she got her vote and she was defeated democratically in parliament. Since the referendum she's made repeated demands that Scotland have the power to veto us leaving the EU, which she has no constitutional powers to do (which she seemingly can't accept). Now she's making demands that Scotland be treated completely differently and be able to remain within the EU, despite this being completely unfeasible and her having no constitutional grounds to enact.

Because she isn't getting her way she's refusing to cooperate in any way, instructing her MP's in Westminster to oppose anything and everything brought before parliament just to be awkward and demanding another referendum on an independent Scotland (despite there being no evidence of an actual shift in public opinion that this is what the Scots want). She wants Holyrood (which is effectively no more than a regional council) to have primacy over the national parliament in foreign affairs. Something she knows only too well that the devolution agreement doesn't permit. 

If anyone is being petulant, uncooperative and disruptive its her. 

The first I was aware of expectations that Sturgeon would have a veto is when it was raised by Theresa May.  At the time, I thought it a purely political invention and was quite impressed: 

 

As for her refusing to co-operate in any way, unless she gets what she wants......excuse me, you can criticise her and May or neither.  They are both behaving in a comparable manner.  I am sure there are many in the EU who feel that May is being "petulant, uncooperative and disruptive".  I think May is being politically pragmatic.  I think the same about Sturgeon.  To argue the two contrast required one to be rather one-eyed.

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21 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

One of her biggest gripes is that Westminster is ignoring Scotland's wishes, conveniently forgetting that over 1M Scots actually voted leave and she's ignoring their wishes.

Really?  You will recall the vote was 48.1% vs 51.9%.  You really are being silly in how one-eyed you are being.  You are free to be one-eyed, but do not expect people to take you seriously.

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I'd be severely narked if I were a Scottish voter who voted No in the independence referendum believing the line that the only way Scotland could stay in the EU was by staying in the UK.  If I remember rightly, Cameron even poked the Spanish into making it clear they'd veto a Scottish EU application in order to not give the Catalans any ideas.  Now, Scotland are being taken out of the EU and being told to lump it and stop complaining.  I think they've got a rock solid case for a second independence referendum, even if I still think the vote will be "No".

That said, I think the EU would allow Scotland in if just to make a point.

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32 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

One of her biggest gripes is that Westminster is ignoring Scotland's wishes, conveniently forgetting that over 1M Scots actually voted leave and she's ignoring their wishes.

You are happy that the millions who voted remain are ignored and any of tgeir concerns dismissed - but then want the minority in Scotland to be listened to.

At least try and be consistent.

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8 minutes ago, ckn said:

I'd be severely narked if I were a Scottish voter who voted No in the independence referendum believing the line that the only way Scotland could stay in the EU was by staying in the UK.

I'd forgotten about that... it bit like the £350m a week claim!

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