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Trojan

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I've just been watching Cas v Widnes form 1990 on YouTube.   Proper scrummaging.  Tries direct from scrums, and Kevin Ward, Lee Crooks, Joe Grimma, Kurt Sorrensen and Phil Mckenzie.  Great forwards.  Classic game. (bear in mind I'm a Fev fan)

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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9 hours ago, Trojan said:

I've just been watching Cas v Widnes form 1990 on YouTube.   Proper scrummaging.  Tries direct from scrums, and Kevin Ward, Lee Crooks, Joe Grimma, Kurt Sorrensen and Phil Mckenzie.  Great forwards.  Classic game. (bear in mind I'm a Fev fan)

I've just watched the first part of it.  All I could see was missed kicks for touch, a penalty or knock on in almost every set and penalty kicks taken for goal. And if these are the highlights, I shudder to think what the rest of the game was like. 

There may have been some great players on the pitch but that was no classic game.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

I've just watched the first part of it.  All I could see was missed kicks for touch, a penalty or knock on in almost every set and penalty kicks taken for goal. And if these are the highlights, I shudder to think what the rest of the game was like. 

There may have been some great players on the pitch but that was no classic game.

But it was hard and uncompromising, blood and thunder rugby. Just to see Kevin Ward, :Lee Crooks or Kurt Sorrenssn bursting tackles is enough for me.  We shall never see their like again.

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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52 minutes ago, Trojan said:

But it was hard and uncompromising, blood and thunder rugby. Just to see Kevin Ward, :Lee Crooks or Kurt Sorrenssn bursting tackles is enough for me.  We shall never see their like again.

Let me take just one of the players you mention.  Kurt Sorenson. He is one of my all time favourite players... certainly in my top 10 and probably in my top 5.

But I am sorry, to say we will not see his like again is a bizarre statement.  Look at Jason Taumalolo; apart from the fact that he is significantly bigger than Sorenson (6' 2" and 18 stone to Sorenson's 5' 10" and 16.5 stones) they are so similar in playing style - wrecking balls on legs.  I don't know how anybody who has seen Taumalolo play can say that he is not in the Sorenson mould.

I am not saying don't remember the players of the 80's and 90's fondly.  I am not saying the modern players are better.  What I am saying is that you can absolutely compare like for like players and say they are both top class.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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27 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Let me take just one of the players you mention.  Kurt Sorenson. He is one of my all time favourite players... certainly in my top 10 and probably in my top 5.

But I am sorry, to say we will not see his like again is a bizarre statement.  Look at Jason Taumalolo; apart from the fact that he is significantly bigger than Sorenson (6' 2" and 18 stone to Sorenson's 5' 10" and 16.5 stones) they are so similar in playing style - wrecking balls on legs.  I don't know how anybody who has seen Taumalolo play can say that he is not in the Sorenson mould.

I am not saying don't remember the players of the 80's and 90's fondly.  I am not saying the modern players are better.  What I am saying is that you can absolutely compare like for like players and say they are both top class.

Nostalgia = The art of letting the memory play tricks at one end whilst the eyesight does the same at the other which means it's impossible to tell fiction from fiction. ;)

James Taylor " The secret of life is enjoying the passage of time...."

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:  Non-Political

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Let me take just one of the players you mention.  Kurt Sorenson. He is one of my all time favourite players... certainly in my top 10 and probably in my top 5.

But I am sorry, to say we will not see his like again is a bizarre statement.  Look at Jason Taumalolo; apart from the fact that he is significantly bigger than Sorenson (6' 2" and 18 stone to Sorenson's 5' 10" and 16.5 stones) they are so similar in playing style - wrecking balls on legs.  I don't know how anybody who has seen Taumalolo play can say that he is not in the Sorenson mould.

I am not saying don't remember the players of the 80's and 90's fondly.  I am not saying the modern players are better.  What I am saying is that you can absolutely compare like for like players and say they are both top class.

But you can. The likes of Sorrensen, Ward, Crooks, Grimma were all great ball handling forwards, Crooks was also a very good goalkicker, but more to the point they were all accomplished scrummagers who knew how to win the ball, something today's players can only dream of.  After eighty minutes of scrummaging these players were still able to take the ball up and bust tackles.  Today's forwards wouldn't have a clue, they look upon scrumtime as a  time for a breather.

I'm not saying the game in the eighties and nineties was better, I'm saying you don't see games like the one I watched any more, and I miss them.

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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Just now, Oxford said:

Nostalgia = The art of letting the memory play tricks at one end whilst the eyesight does the same at the other which means it's impossible to tell fiction from fiction. ;)

James Taylor " The secret of life is enjoying the passage of time...."

Well you know what they say, nostalgia isn't what it used to be!

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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5 minutes ago, Trojan said:

But you can. The likes of Sorrensen, Ward, Crooks, Grimma were all great ball handling forwards, Crooks was also a very good goalkicker, but more to the point they were all accomplished scrummagers who knew how to win the ball, something today's players can only dream of.  After eighty minutes of scrummaging these players were still able to take the ball up and bust tackles.  Today's forwards wouldn't have a clue, they look upon scrumtime as a  time for a breather.

I'm not saying the game in the eighties and nineties was better, I'm saying you don't see games like the one I watched any more, and I miss them.

I packed down into plenty of Rugby League scrums in the 80's and 90's. They were much tougher than todays scrums with heads and fists flying around but not particularly exhausting. A scrum lasted maybe 10 seconds from the moment the front rows bound (if that), 20 of those a game is about 3 minutes of physical effort. I'm pretty sure a modern Rugby League forward could cope with that.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

I packed down into plenty of Rugby League scrums in the 80's and 90's. They were much tougher than todays scrums with heads and fists flying around but not particularly exhausting. A scrum lasted maybe 10 seconds from the moment the front rows bound (if that), 20 of those a game is about 3 minutes of physical effort. I'm pretty sure a modern Rugby League forward could cope with that.

Well if you look at many of the scrums in this game they lasted a damned sight longer than 10 seconds.  When I played amateur RL as a back row forward, scrummaging was horse work.  You really knew you'd been in a game a the end.

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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Past players were great and so are modern ones so long as you can spot clay feet and wear your Specsavers (other possible sponsor vision aid groups are available!).

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:  Non-Political

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Trojan said:

Well if you look at many of the scrums in this game they lasted a damned sight longer than 10 seconds.

No they didn't.  Go and watch the video again and find a scrum that lasted 10 seconds from the moment the front rows came together. The average is two or three seconds... the ball went in and came out pretty quickly in a game of League.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Just now, Dunbar said:

No they didn't.  Go and watch the video again and find a scrum that lasted 10 seconds from the moment the front rows came together. The average is two or three seconds... the ball went in and came out pretty quickly in a game of League.

Let's agree to differ.  I remember scrummaging differently to you

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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4 minutes ago, Trojan said:

Let's agree to differ.  I remember scrummaging differently to you

Maybe a don't remember them because I got knocked senseless too often!! I agree a 'proper' Rugby League scrum was no place for the faint hearted.

 

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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2 hours ago, Trojan said:

But it was hard and uncompromising, blood and thunder rugby. Just to see Kevin Ward, :Lee Crooks or Kurt Sorrenssn bursting tackles is enough for me.  We shall never see their like again.

You'd have missed the pace of Charlie Stone and Vince Farrar then?

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The speed of todays game would see the players of yesteryear struggle, as they were mostly part time and didnt have the fitness of todays players. Its easy to pretend that Sorensen, Crooks etc are so much better than the players of today. The reality is some what different. The speed of the game is way faster today. The hits and collision involved are bigger than ever before. The Scrums thankfully are different and for the better. It may have been tough, but it didnt make the game for me great to watch. If you love scrums so much go and watch Union. I and would guess most League followers would rather watch players running with the ball than watching a scrum. And many of todays forwards are alot better at passing and offloading in the tackle,

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44 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

You'd have missed the pace of Charlie Stone and Vince Farrar then?

:)

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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34 minutes ago, Lounge Room Lizard said:

The speed of todays game would see the players of yesteryear struggle, as they were mostly part time and didnt have the fitness of todays players. Its easy to pretend that Sorensen, Crooks etc are so much better than the players of today. The reality is some what different. The speed of the game is way faster today. The hits and collision involved are bigger than ever before. The Scrums thankfully are different and for the better. It may have been tough, but it didnt make the game for me great to watch. If you love scrums so much go and watch Union. I and would guess most League followers would rather watch players running with the ball than watching a scrum. And many of todays forwards are alot better at passing and offloading in the tackle,

Better than Brian Kevin Ward or Kurt Sorrensen, and given today's training I'm sure they'd compete.  I don't enjoy watching scrums, but I do enjoy seeing a scrum half set up a try directly from a scrum, which is something you never see these days.

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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7 minutes ago, Trojan said:

Better than Brian Kevin Ward or Kurt Sorrensen, and given today's training I'm sure they'd compete.  I don't enjoy watching scrums, but I do enjoy seeing a scrum half set up a try directly from a scrum, which is something you never see these days.

I have seen a number of tries setup from the Scrum Half directly from a scrum. Cronk, Thurston etc do it regularly. I think you are living in Nostalgialand and forgetting the skills and athleticism the modern player has. Taumololo, Jesse Bromwich, Sam Burgess etc I would say have more skills than the likes of Ward and Sorrensen. They also play in a much faster game, where space and time is way less than the time you are talking about. 

I have watched a bit of the game and its very scrappy and is a lot slower than today, as you would expect. Even Crooks, Ward and Sorensen putting in some poor offloads. Its easy to maybe get into thinking yesteryear was better and in some ways it was. But to say that game was a "Classic" is pushing the limits of wishful thinking some what.

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6 minutes ago, Lounge Room Lizard said:

I have seen a number of tries setup from the Scrum Half directly from a scrum. Cronk, Thurston etc do it regularly. I think you are living in Nostalgialand and forgetting the skills and athleticism the modern player has. Taumololo, Jesse Bromwich, Sam Burgess etc I would say have more skills than the likes of Ward and Sorrensen. They also play in a much faster game, where space and time is way less than the time you are talking about. 

I have watched a bit of the game and its very scrappy and is a lot slower than today, as you would expect. Even Crooks, Ward and Sorensen putting in some poor offloads. Its easy to maybe get into thinking yesteryear was better and in some ways it was. But to say that game was a "Classic" is pushing the limits of wishful thinking some what.

Opinions are subjective.  To see Wardy burst through a tackle and hand it on to the man who should have scored really excited me.  It's true you do see some great games today, but you also see a lot of substandard rugby, I'm talking about SL here not the NRL which rarely see.  

I'd like to see a return to competitive scrums, provided they could be policed correctly, but of course they can't/

I think Union would be a better game if the scrums once again became  a contest for possession instead of a means of generating a penalty.  Anyway roll on Sunday week.  What'll happen at the Shay?  Last time out we beat you there and the time before you hammered us at Blackpool.   All to play for.  Pity Charlie Stone, Jimmy Thompson and Vince Farrar aren't available! :)

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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I think by far the biggest difference in the game quoted and today is not the scrum (as these are a set piece and relatively infrequent) but the play the ball. I would prefer to see a strong policing of the play the ball where a player must play it correctly. I believe this would add more structure to the modern game, slow it down a little and allow skills to shine more. The modern game just feels a little too frantic.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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3 hours ago, Trojan said:

Let's agree to differ.  I remember scrummaging differently to you

I remember it differently form both of you, weird or what?

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:  Non-Political

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

I think by far the biggest difference in the game quoted and today is not the scrum (as these are a set piece and relatively infrequent) but the play the ball. I would prefer to see a strong policing of the play the ball where a player must play it correctly. I believe this would add more structure to the modern game, slow it down a little and allow skills to shine more. The modern game just feels a little too frantic.

When I played (a long time ago)  the first thing we were taught was how to play the ball correctly, according to the laws.

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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1 hour ago, Trojan said:

Opinions are subjective.  To see Wardy burst through a tackle and hand it on to the man who should have scored really excited me.  It's true you do see some great games today, but you also see a lot of substandard rugby, I'm talking about SL here not the NRL which rarely see.  

I'd like to see a return to competitive scrums, provided they could be policed correctly, but of course they can't/

I think Union would be a better game if the scrums once again became  a contest for possession instead of a means of generating a penalty.  Anyway roll on Sunday week.  What'll happen at the Shay?  Last time out we beat you there and the time before you hammered us at Blackpool.   All to play for.  Pity Charlie Stone, Jimmy Thompson and Vince Farrar aren't available! :)

Being realistic I do not see Fax beating Fev this year. Small squad and no real strength in depth in any position. I will go for Fev by 6-10 Points.

The Scrums for me are a way to start the game and I have no major problems really with the way things are.

I would rather see the PTB area cleaned up, with Refs making sure the foot touches the ball and being played in a controlled manner. I would also make it that the 2 Markers and defensive line cant move until the acting halfback picks the ball up. It just gives the attack a bit more time.

The other thing I would like to see is reduce the interchange to 6. The players are fitter now than ever before and think 6 is enough. I think by reducing it to 6 interchanges we would see the attack again being given more space as the defence is more tired. As Dunbar says the game at times is played too quickly and the skills on show suffer, as players panic as the defence is straight on them. 

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I've always been of the opinion that a truly great player would have been a great player in any era. Sorenson and Crooks would probably be terrific players today, probably different to what they were because the game's changed. Likewise Burgess would have been a top player in the 80's and 90's because he would have grew up learning that style of game and would be good enough to cope with it

100% League 0% Union

Just because I don't know doesn't mean I don't understand

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6 hours ago, Trojan said:

But you can. The likes of Sorrensen, Ward, Crooks, Grimma were all great ball handling forwards, Crooks was also a very good goalkicker, but more to the point they were all accomplished scrummagers who knew how to win the ball, something today's players can only dream of.  After eighty minutes of scrummaging these players were still able to take the ball up and bust tackles.  Today's forwards wouldn't have a clue, they look upon scrumtime as a  time for a breather.

I'm not saying the game in the eighties and nineties was better, I'm saying you don't see games like the one I watched any more, and I miss them.

Sad to say that is largely because you (we) are older, more world-weary and cynical than you were then. It is a consequence of growing old,

Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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