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Toronto v Coventry

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41 minutes ago, DEANO said:

Success will only show up if and when ,they hit hard times. 

Sports games are events over here though.  If you keep it as that, people will continue to come out.  Obviously if it's a weekly shellacking that would bite somewhat but fans over here respect competitive losses without losing loyalty.

Heck look at the Leafs, they've won ###### all for years, the fans get charged the highest prices in the NHL, yet the ACC is always sold out.  Not much of a comparison financial wise, but it does hopefully get across the fanaticism of Toronto sports fans.

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1 hour ago, DEANO said:

Success will only show up if and when they hit hard times. 

Hard times???...Hard Times????...You gotta be from the UK Man..we live through hard times every year over here...its called a 'Canadian Winter'-now thats hard times! 

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First thought after reading that was "WE USED TO DREAM O' LIVIN' IN A CORRIDOR!  Would've been a palace to us!"

;)

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On 2017-6-8 at 9:19 AM, Scubby said:

Sadly people have you on ignore because you are a one topic poster. And you don't even offer new debate in that just the same stuff like the above. I could have read this stuff from you at any point on this forum over the last 5 years.

Enjoy and discuss the wider game FFS. RL has more to offer than this.

Sadly people do have me on ignore, but this works two ways. I have people on ignore who are just plain ignorant and rude. That's what the ignore button is for so we can proceed with a debate.

We go round in circles because sadly you are a one topic poster. That's fine your allowed to do this as are other people, your "Fantasy rugby league" is as boring to me, as my "Look at the realities" is to you.

The best post of this year was a poster of welsh persuasion who started his post "I don't often come on here because it's full of fantasists".

You know the fantasies, "market and they will come", "development officers all over the country will see kids playing RL", "more internationals will see us catch up with RU" "Conferences is the way forward" and of course "North america is the saviour of Rugby league" "Catalans are a success" This sort of stuff offers no real debate, and just repeats again and again.

The latest one is to pick out target areas in London to develop RL even though there is no money and no people to do this. When the local ARL club was asked if they were "developing juniors" they said that they were not, it was just a bunch of guys enjoying playing a bit of RL FFS. 

However London is now apparently the future (again)

So why not enjoy and discuss the REAL game FFS. RL has more to offer than the constant fantasising many of "us other lads" have had to put up with for far more than "5 years"...

Edited by The Parksider

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Just now, The Parksider said:

Sadly people do have me on ignore, but this works two ways. I have people on ignore who are just plain ignorant and rude. That's what the ignore button is for so we can proceed with a debate.

We go round in circles because sadly you are a one topic poster. That's fine your allowed to do this as are other people, your "Fantasy rugby league" is as boring to me, as my "Look at the realities" is to you.

The best post of this year was a poster of welsh persuasion who started his post "I don't often come on here because it's full of fantasists".

You know the fantasies, "market and they will come", "development officers all over the country will see kids playing RL", "more internationals will see us catch up with RU" "Conferences is the way forward" and of course "North america is the saviour of Rugby league" "Catalans are a success" This sort of stuff offers no real debate, and just repeats again and again.

The latest one is to pick out target areas in London to develop RL even though there is no money and no people to do this. When the local ARL club was asked if they were "developing juniors" they said that they were not, it was just a bunch of guys enjoying playing a bit of RL FFS. 

However London is now apparently the future (again)

So why not enjoy and discuss the REAL game FFS. RL has more to offer than the constant fantasising many of "us other lads" have had to put up with for far more than "5 years"...

The TWP is no fantasy...ignore us at your peril...we are real and knocking at your door.  Thats right the wolf is at your door...just open it a little crack...that right...just a little

BAM!  OK fellas were in!

"Run With The Pack!"

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2 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

The TWP is no fantasy...ignore us at your peril...we are real and knocking at your door.  Thats right the wolf is at your door...just open it a little crack...that right...just a little

BAM!  OK fellas were in!

"Run With The Pack!"

If the premise of what he wrote were true, he would have very good points.  The only valid thing is there was a thread on which area of London to pick for rugby league.  There were posts saying this way of thinking was a nonsense, so Parky is not the lone voice of reason that he claims.  "market and they will come" is to deliberately confuse sales with marketing.

He considers himself a Cassandra figure, but we are not actually in Troy and there are very few people who are Pollyannas.

TWP have a great deal of work with them.  I am very involved in growing the game is a remote location and it is going very well, but I also know how much of a challenge is ahead.  That is realism.  Some people think is it easy, that is a fantasy.  Others insist it is impossible, that is also a fantasy.

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Just now, Bob8 said:

He considers himself a Cassandra figure, but we are not actually in Troy and there are very few people who are Pollyannas.

TWP have a great deal of work with them.  I am very involved in growing the game is a remote location and it is going very well, but I also know how much of a challenge is ahead.  That is realism.  Some people think is it easy, that is a fantasy.  Others insist it is impossible, that is also a fantasy.

Love the analogy...this would make the Toronto Wolfpack...umm now let me see...AENEAS!

Thats it...AENEAS!

And look what he started!  And he didn't let the Naysayers stop him either.

"Pitter patter lets get at 'er"

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Oh look, parky playing the victim, thats new......

 

Anyway, it really is great to see a fresh approach from the Toronto hierarchy, What I would hope to see is established clubs looking at what they are doing and see if anything can be used at their game days. There may be nothing, but it would be remiss of them to ignore it completely.

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Just now, dkw said:

Oh look, parky playing the victim, thats new......

 

Anyway, it really is great to see a fresh approach from the Toronto hierarchy, What I would hope to see is established clubs looking at what they are doing and see if anything can be used at their game days. There may be nothing, but it would be remiss of them to ignore it completely.

DKW ...as always...you seem to be ahead of the curve.  You were the first real guy I talked to when I joined the forum...how prophetic your advice to me was!

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This isn’t a tactical evaluation it’s an open forum, by its very definition a place for bringing forth ideas no matter how outlandish they might appear.  Anyone who has been fortunate enough to be a part of those kinds of activities knows how useful they are at creating real ‘light bulb going on’ directions that were completely obscured before.

Trying to stifle that is akin to giving a child a new game then complaining about them being excited and using their imagination.  ######, forget North America, I want to see rocket powered, zero-g Rugby League in 3 dimensions, not just 2; where kicks are measured in kilometres and the ball boys have to avoid asteroids, not just streetcars on King Street.

Be excited, be enthused, be enthralled; keep going on wild journeys through your mind and keep exercising your imagination because that’s what solves the real-world problems when they hit.

And can someone define what the REAL game is please?

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2 hours ago, dkw said:

Oh look, parky playing the victim, thats new......

 

Anyway, it really is great to see a fresh approach from the Toronto hierarchy, What I would hope to see is established clubs looking at what they are doing and see if anything can be used at their game days. There may be nothing, but it would be remiss of them to ignore it completely.

I probably wouldn't recommend huge craft beer tents at some of our more excitable grounds lol. 

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The basic four P's of marketing-

Product - Rugby League is an excellent product in itself, fast, physical, easy to understand and exciting to watch. What the team is putting on the field, dedicated, fan friendly marquee players backed up by exemplary promotional media and well made kit, a game-day experience (craft beer garden in a stadium-stroke of genius!) to die-for, is a hit out of the park. 

Price - tickets are relatively inexpensive (in part due to the fact the the venue is old school but with a charm that makes it once again, fan friendly - and did I mention that beer-garden?)

Place - delivering the product to the fans is the key to success in any venture (especially when it's a new product in a crowded sports marketplace) and how to interact with your customer, well this is being taken to another level by the Wolfpack brain trust. Some of the UK teams are taking notice, Oxford were on the right track, there was lotsa preflight chatter on their twitterfeed, Barrow sadly were nowhere (bet they won't make that mistake twice!) Coventry got it before they arrived in Toronto and it showed in their game. Hopefully Hunslet, All Golds and York have take notice.

Promote - the Wolfpack logo is brilliant, the kit is high quality, the players are participating in spades and the local media have picked up the fact that there is something going at Lamport field every coupla weeks and so they are biting. It's all up from here folks. RL has landed!!

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14 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Love the analogy...this would make the Toronto Wolfpack...umm now let me see...AENEAS!

Thats it...AENEAS!

And look what he started!  And he didn't let the Naysayers stop him either.

"Pitter patter lets get at 'er"

Take about 20% off there, squirrely kayakman.

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19 hours ago, dkw said:

1. Oh look, parky playing the victim, thats new......

2. Anyway, it really is great to see a fresh approach from the Toronto hierarchy, What I would hope to see is established clubs looking at what they are doing and see if anything can be used at their game days. There may be nothing, but it would be remiss of them to ignore it completely.

1

1. Yeh I'm a victim of ignorance and intolerance and your a major perpetrator of it.

2. What's the "Fresh approach"? New clubs can jazz up their inclusion into the Rugby League all they like but the fundamental requirements is to bring more players and more TV money into the game. You say:-

"It really is great to see a fresh approach from the Toronto hierarchy, What I would hope to see is established clubs looking at what they are doing and see if anything can be used at their game days"

I don't know how old you are, you may be too young to remember, or you may be too senile and have forgotten the days of Cougar Mania and Bull Mania, these were concepts based around "developing the game day experience". But in the end it was all scrapped because there wasn't the return on that. Anyway stop crawling and get back to your ignorant sniping....

Edited by The Parksider

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17 hours ago, CanaBull said:

Be excited, be enthused, be enthralled; keep going on wild journeys through your mind and keep exercising your imagination because that’s what solves the real-world problems when they hit.

 

The real world problems for Toronto are an apparent lack of a junior or even senior development programme, and a way to get commercial revenue out of the operation to share with other clubs if the target is Superleague.You can't "imagine" these things.....

If your "Based in Toronto and doing your bit to develop RL over there" then can you give us a run down of the development plans so far. I can only pick up snippets based on their trials days, and Perez's talks of converting Grid Iron players and going to China to discover talent.

We may (or we may not) be far enough into Toronto's successful entry into the Rugby League to be able to see some stirrings amongst what are sizeable crowds, for actually playing the game themselves?

In the run ups and run downs to games are there many kids about? Do they get to have a go with the Rugby Ball in League style? Are the young men inspired in the crowd to have a go themselves? Could curtain raisers (yes - a bit of imagination here) be held with the kids playing mini games?

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To answer the points in your last paragraph:

1. There have been hundreds of kids at each game so far.

2. Yes.

3. Not yet, but then domestic rugby league isn't well promoted at Wolfpack games.  As I mentioned in their success criteria thread, this needs to change.

4. There have been two domestic league games before the last two matches as curtain raisers, but they weren't promoted well.  The last game local kids were playing tag footy during halftime.

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11 hours ago, TheReaper said:

Take about 20% off there, squirrely kayakman.

Lol, I use that all the time. Am I going to stop? Hard no. 

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Just now, CanaBull said:

To answer the points in your last paragraph:

1. There have been hundreds of kids at each game so far.

2. Yes.

3. Not yet, but then domestic rugby league isn't well promoted at Wolfpack games.  As I mentioned in their success criteria thread, this needs to change.

4. There have been two domestic league games before the last two matches as curtain raisers, but they weren't promoted well.  The last game local kids were playing tag footy during halftime.

How many teams in the domestic league canabull? Every picture I've seen from games you can see kids enjoying themselves, is this something that's being done on purpose by the photographers perhaps, make a big thing of the family element?

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Not sure what's happening in BC, seven teams were supposed to be playing but only five are actually competing.

As far as Ontario goes, there have been struggles for numbers this year with several players active previously retiring.  The Centurions and Saints have pooled their resources into a single team to challenge Brantford Broncos.

I think with the kids is that there's so many of them there enjoying themselves it's only natural to gravitate toward them.  We'll see how they take advantage of this as the rest of the season unfolds, but the games are now at 7pm so there will be fewer younger kids coming along.

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Cheers, shame they are going to 7pm then, be interesting to see how that affects attendance.

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Could possibly be better, as we get into June July August it's going to be a lot more pleasant in the evening than baking in an exposed concrete box in the sun.

Also, some of the struggles in player number have to do with playing those curtain raiser matches on Saturdays. A number of the players still play both codes and won't miss their normal Saturday game.

Edited by TheReaper

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I am new to the forum but a Wolfpack fan and one who played rugby in high school (Ottawa).  Professionally I was in corporate banking and corporate finance for many years (but now am a partner in a software/tech enterprise) and I have peripheral contact with some parties doing business with TW.  So I have some observations based on my knowledge and experience:

1) TW is very well financed, they already have high quality sponsors, and they are in a very, very affluent city.  It would not surprise me if it turned out the TW financial position exceeded all but a few of the Super League clubs.  They are doing exceedingly well out of Lamport, for which the rent is very low.  The ownership is very people oriented, you see it reflected in the coach, gm and even the players (who all look very happy to be playing for the Wolfpack even though it is in the bottom tier).

2) Rugby does have a base in Canada, I played in high school but the sport lacked a professional high profile club to attach and inspire youth.  With the existence of the Wolfpack that will change quickly I believe.

3) the score of games is pretty meaningless for the fans in Toronto.  They know the clubs coming here are at a disadvantage and they will support them because of that.  When Toronto bumps up to Championship that will cause the Woflpack to blow through the Lamport capacity - it won't require they be in Super League for crowds to grow.  Success builds success, and Canadians are generally extremely supportive across a wide array of sports.  And this is close enough to hockey and lacrosse in its physicality that its popularity will grow as more of the general population learns about it.

4) Quite simply, this is not a small market team, and Canadians don't even really think the way say Londener's do with their neighborhood mentality.  The small market mentality is what is killing the league and why they are hoping for North American expansion. 

5) 7pm starting time for games is meaningless.  I remember waiting for ice at 2am as a midget hockey player.  If you are a Brit, you have no idea of the life of a hockey parent (or curling) in Canada, let alone an adult player on a team in a house league (of which there are millions of participants).  The ice runs 24/7/365 and you likely have never experienced anything similar.

I will be blunt, and hope this is not taken the wrong way.  If your British, throw out almost every convention with which you are familiar when trying to compare Toronto norms and habits to what you are familiar.  None of them apply.  Canadians think a 9pm start time for a game is perfectly normal and a 7 pm time is likely viewed as early.  Canadians think a 5 hour -500km drive to go visit their parents is a commute, not a trip.  Canadians think going to see a professional event where they get in for $25 is so cheap they doubt its real.  It takes about 24 hours of continuous driving to get from one end of just the Province of Ontario to the other end, so to hear griping about a short plane ride (most of our in-country travel takes longer) will get you no friends.  Canadians love wolves and will take to the imagery of the Wolfpack like a fish to water.  Beer swilling rugby players fits very nicely into the beer swilling hockey mentality.  

So unless the league collapses on the UK side, Toronto is the last of anyone's worries.  Its us worried about you as we are now becoming aware of just how weak it is on that side of the pond.  Really, we should just move the whole league over here, then it would likely do much better financially.  We have small towns that draw crowds many times the size of your normal attendance, just to junior hockey.

Those are a few thoughts that occur to me based on what I have observed....

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Glad to read that you are being blunt.

Problem is that some on here will still be sat at their computer and laptop truly believing that they know more about the citizens of Toronto than what you do.

 

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9 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Glad to read that you are being blunt.

Problem is that some on here will still be sat at their computer and laptop truly believing that they know more about the citizens of Toronto than what you do.

 

Totally.

People who ridicule development officers,for example, do not have a clue and in fact are harmful to RL as they have no desire to see it spread beyond Leeds.

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3 hours ago, Captain Survival said:

I am new to the forum but a Wolfpack fan and one who played rugby in high school (Ottawa).  Professionally I was in corporate banking and corporate finance for many years (but now am a partner in a software/tech enterprise) and I have peripheral contact with some parties doing business with TW.  So I have some observations based on my knowledge and experience:

1) TW is very well financed, they already have high quality sponsors, and they are in a very, very affluent city.  It would not surprise me if it turned out the TW financial position exceeded all but a few of the Super League clubs.  They are doing exceedingly well out of Lamport, for which the rent is very low.  The ownership is very people oriented, you see it reflected in the coach, gm and even the players (who all look very happy to be playing for the Wolfpack even though it is in the bottom tier).

2) Rugby does have a base in Canada, I played in high school but the sport lacked a professional high profile club to attach and inspire youth.  With the existence of the Wolfpack that will change quickly I believe.

3) the score of games is pretty meaningless for the fans in Toronto.  They know the clubs coming here are at a disadvantage and they will support them because of that.  When Toronto bumps up to Championship that will cause the Woflpack to blow through the Lamport capacity - it won't require they be in Super League for crowds to grow.  Success builds success, and Canadians are generally extremely supportive across a wide array of sports.  And this is close enough to hockey and lacrosse in its physicality that its popularity will grow as more of the general population learns about it.

4) Quite simply, this is not a small market team, and Canadians don't even really think the way say Londener's do with their neighborhood mentality.  The small market mentality is what is killing the league and why they are hoping for North American expansion. 

5) 7pm starting time for games is meaningless.  I remember waiting for ice at 2am as a midget hockey player.  If you are a Brit, you have no idea of the life of a hockey parent (or curling) in Canada, let alone an adult player on a team in a house league (of which there are millions of participants).  The ice runs 24/7/365 and you likely have never experienced anything similar.

I will be blunt, and hope this is not taken the wrong way.  If your British, throw out almost every convention with which you are familiar when trying to compare Toronto norms and habits to what you are familiar.  None of them apply.  Canadians think a 9pm start time for a game is perfectly normal and a 7 pm time is likely viewed as early.  Canadians think a 5 hour -500km drive to go visit their parents is a commute, not a trip.  Canadians think going to see a professional event where they get in for $25 is so cheap they doubt its real.  It takes about 24 hours of continuous driving to get from one end of just the Province of Ontario to the other end, so to hear griping about a short plane ride (most of our in-country travel takes longer) will get you no friends.  Canadians love wolves and will take to the imagery of the Wolfpack like a fish to water.  Beer swilling rugby players fits very nicely into the beer swilling hockey mentality.  

So unless the league collapses on the UK side, Toronto is the last of anyone's worries.  Its us worried about you as we are now becoming aware of just how weak it is on that side of the pond.  Really, we should just move the whole league over here, then it would likely do much better financially.  We have small towns that draw crowds many times the size of your normal attendance, just to junior hockey.

Those are a few thoughts that occur to me based on what I have observed....

Really interesting and I'm looking forward to hearing what the forum thinks about your penultimate paragraph!

The truth is, TW cannot start a league of their own, and are dependant upon the British (or Aus/NZ) for players and fixtures.  I cannot see a supply of players on the Canadian side appearing in the next few years.

If what you say about the TW financial strength is true (no reason to disbelieve you) then when TW inevitably rise towards superleague then potentially they have a lot more to offer the British game and can help drag the British game upwards through:

1) Increasing the commercial revenues through increased value of TV contracts due to the additional markets in North America

2) Provide another financially strong club at the top of the game capable of providing top-level salaries for our best players.  This will help recruitment and retention of talent for the UK league.

3) Helps improve the image of UK rugby league moving it further from the mainly northern game to one which can be played by anyone, anywhere and provide glamorous opportunities for any player so inclined to earn their living in Toronto, Toulouse, London or Perpignan

4) Adds value to the league sponsorship with exposure on a more global scale

For me, it's a marriage of convenience with both TW and the UK clubs benefitting from each other's existence.

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