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Old Frightful

Grenfell Tower Block fire in London.

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When I saw it this morning it reminded me very strongly of 9/11 - visually of course. Especially then hearing what the firefighters were doing and what their American colleagues did in the twin towers.

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Something major wrong in the design of either the building or the refurbishment for a building to go up so quickly 

I had to turn the news off this morning , it seemed they were only interviewing people from the bottom 7/8 floors 

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10 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Yeah the emergency services are brilliant in this country, still not worth a pay rise though.

Something that James O'Brian from LBC makes a point of during pretty much every one of his shows.

Edited by Mark S

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2 hours ago, gingerjon said:

I get that but the key people bringing politics into it *whilst the building was aflame* were the angry eye-witnesses and survivors.  Those who have been, for years, saying that they thought their homes were a fire hazard.  Those who wrote that it would take a catastrophe for anyone to notice.  The avoidable and pre-warned burning out of their homes of over one hundred families.  The loss of life.  If that's not political then nothing is.

Anger also has a root in grief.  So what you might also have been hearing is grief.  Not politics but grief.

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28 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Yeah the emergency services are brilliant in this country, still not worth a pay rise though.

All public service workers get at least one pay rise a year until they reach the top of their scale.  When the public purse is full, they get two pay rises a year.  Private sector workers meanwhile are lucky to get one pay rise a year.

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2 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

Anger also has a root in grief.  So what you might also have been hearing is grief.  Not politics but grief.

Not sure about that - if you've spent years pointing out that something is dangerous and then this sort of thing happens I think anger is a very reasonable emotion.

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3 hours ago, JohnM said:

 It didn't take long for Labour politicians to drag this appaling tragedy down into the gutter which they inhabit. We all know Corbyn for what he is, and now we know Harman for what she is, too.  Do these people have no shame?   Probably not.

The Manchester bombing was the fault of our foreign policy.

The London Bridge/Borough Market killings were the fault of Tory cuts to the police force.

A terrible fire in west London is the fault of everything Tories have ever done.

If Corbyn isn't careful people will begin to notice that he exploits every tragedy for his own political gain and they may start to see him as he really is.

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3 minutes ago, tim2 said:

Not sure about that - if you've spent years pointing out that something is dangerous and then this sort of thing happens I think anger is a very reasonable emotion.

I didn't say it wasn't.  What I did say was that anger also has a root in grief.  Did you read my post?

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1 minute ago, Saintslass said:

I didn't say it wasn't.  What I did say was that anger also has a root in grief.  Did you read my post?

I did,- it didn't make sense in the context of what Jon had said. Did you read his?

Anger has a root in injustice and indifference too.

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Just now, tim2 said:

I did,- it didn't make sense in the context of what Jon had said. Did you read his?

Anger has a root in injustice and indifference too.

Yes.  He was claiming it was political and my response was challenging that view by putting forward another reason for anger.  And as you say, anger has a root in injustice and indifference too: it is often called 'righteous indignation' in those cases. 

To assume that just because someone is angry means that they are being political is erroneous.  There are many reasons why a person can be angry.

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Just now, Saintslass said:

All public service workers get at least one pay rise a year until they reach the top of their scale.  When the public purse is full, they get two pay rises a year.  Private sector workers meanwhile are lucky to get one pay rise a year.

I've worked in both sectors -I know which one pays the best.

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Just now, Saintslass said:

The Manchester bombing was the fault of our foreign policy.

The London Bridge/Borough Market killings were the fault of Tory cuts to the police force.

A terrible fire in west London is the fault of everything Tories have ever done.

If Corbyn isn't careful people will begin to notice that he exploits every tragedy for his own political gain and they may start to see him as he really is.

It's too early to judge regarding the fire today but have you ever considered people might think he's right about the other two issues.

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Huge questions to be asked about building design and fire regulations. FWIW, my insight -

25 years ago, I was bursar at a school when I learnt a couple of truths about the use of asbestos. As teachers, we are always told to brighten up our classrooms, put up stimulating visual displays, etc. So, one of my colleagues did just that. He got a series of posters and fixed them to the concrete beams running across the ceiling of his room. Unfortunately, he used drawing pins. One day, the council's building inspector came round (he did every year) and went ballistic about the drawing pins. I was puzzled and asked what the problem was. He explained that the beams were steel reinforced concrete clad in asbestos, which in turn was clad in a plastic cover. He went on to explain that, in a fire, steel reinforced concrete was a serious problem because the heat made the steel expand and crack the concrete, causing the whole thing to lose structural integrity and collapse. Asbestos was needed to 'buy time' before the beams collapsed. Because asbestos dust was so dangerous, it had to be clad in plastic for safety. Puncturing the plastic with drawing pins would potentially risk asbestos dust being inhaled by children. So, asbestos was a necessary evil.

I remember watching the twin towers on 9/11 and saying to the guy whose office I was in that the buildings would collapse soon. They did. I am amazed that Grenfell Tower has not already collapsed and I expect it  to be demolished pdq.

My thoughts are with the injured, the bereaved and their families.

 

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It will be demolished at some point , the refurbishment costs will be very high and who would want to live in it ?

 

 

What happened to the other thread that ckn started?

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1 minute ago, Ramite said:

It will be demolished at some point , the refurbishment costs will be very high and who would want to live in it ?

 

 

What happened to the other thread that ckn started?

I deleted it.  I had my rant and just couldn't be doing with the dross that'd inevitably come.  It'd achieve nothing anyway beyond being a negative thread and we'd be back to saying "never again" again, until next time when we say "never again".

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2 minutes ago, ckn said:

I deleted it.  I had my rant and just couldn't be doing with the dross that'd inevitably come.  It'd achieve nothing anyway beyond being a negative thread and we'd be back to saying "never again" again, until next time when we say "never again".

I did start posting a reply to your post , but ultimatly there isnt much to say , everything in life is a compromise , I am currently watching how in Syria they are still producing TV including soap operas , the world is what it is its never been perfect , it never will be 

But life will go on 

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If you listen to reports the residents are angry with KCTMO for not listening to them regarding their concerns...This is not the Tory council who own the building but a  private company that manages the block..along with thousands of other properties within the Borough. Although originally it was born out of employees that use to work for the council..they are ( so they claim ,I was never convinced) ,a separate entity. 

For the number of properties they run, the number of surveyors n building regulators that monitor the buildings is inadequate...n from my own experience of dealing with a fair number of them..their knowledge of building regulations was limited..they would frequently pass jobs off  to quickly n months later they would have to be redone. As said in another post I came across a brilliant building regulator ,, n he would frequently pull them up for allowing shoddy work to be passed...I know he also covered a large area n had a massive workload.   

I  acknowledge it is too early to say what caused the fire ( whether it was the exploding fridge) or what caused the fire to accelerate n rage out of control in a short space of time...

However listening to the residents anger at KCTMO n the contractors...this to me seems a very familiar story of  KCTMO not listening...a tragedy that need not have happened if they had heeded the residents associations own warnings. 

One thing to me seems clear, is that one company can not  effectively manage n maintain thousands of properties with the number of staff they have....the contractors might do the work but they have to survey it. 

I cannot  comprehend what all these people must be going though..I hope eventually  after rebuilding their lives they get the answers that they seek. 

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38 minutes ago, TheSnowmonkey said:

(trimmed)

For the number of properties they run, the number of surveyors n building regulators that monitor the buildings is inadequate...n from my own experience of dealing with a fair number of them..their knowledge of building regulations was limited..they would frequently pass jobs off  to quickly n months later they would have to be redone. As said in another post I came across a brilliant building regulator ,, n he would frequently pull them up for allowing shoddy work to be passed...I know he also covered a large area n had a massive workload.   

(trimmed)

This is not new. Back in the late 60s/early 70s, my dad had a drinking pal who was a clerk of works for Manchester Council. He was told by his bosses that he was finding too many faults and needed to pass more of the works he inspected. He compromised and passed anything faulty that was merely decorative and failed anything that was potentially dangerous. He was tearing his hair out in the end. Anecdotal, I know, but it's not always the building inspectors' fault. They will have 'targets' to meet.

When did we all decide to give up on quality and settle for bloody 'targets'?

 

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6 hours ago, tonyXIII said:

This is not new. Back in the late 60s/early 70s, my dad had a drinking pal who was a clerk of works for Manchester Council. He was told by his bosses that he was finding too many faults and needed to pass more of the works he inspected. He compromised and passed anything faulty that was merely decorative and failed anything that was potentially dangerous. He was tearing his hair out in the end. Anecdotal, I know, but it's not always the building inspectors' fault. They will have 'targets' to meet.

When did we all decide to give up on quality and settle for bloody 'targets'?

 

Your last sentence sums up the problem. There has definitely been a sea change in our attitude to " quality " in the country.  We want everything done on the cheap.

Privatisation has a lot to answer for. One company running the track and another running the trains is a classic example. When things go wrong they just blame each other.

In the case of the fire one organisation owned the building another one actually ran the operation. Again things can fall between the cracks.

To answer your question - you can point the finger pretty accurately - 1979.

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Driving up from the Cotswolds yesterday I was able to listen to the saturation coverage of the appalling tragedy. As you would expect from Radio Five there was much ill-informed comment, though there were contributions from acknowledged experts in the field. Harman was up there through with her shameful  politicking whilst people were losing their lives. The best contribution, though, was THIS

 

 

Edited by JohnM

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Seeing all of the food, water and clothes being sent is amazing. The organisers had to ask people to stop sending tea as they had too much of it. There is nothing more British than that.

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Just now, Mark S said:

Seeing all of the food, water and clothes being sent is amazing. The organisers had to ask people to stop sending tea as they had too much of it. There is nothing more British than that.

The recent heart warming scenes in this country both in Manchester and London proves there's not much wrong with our population.

So much for - " There's No Such Thing As Socirty "

What an idiot woman.

Edited by Tyrone Shoelaces

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