Sign in to follow this  
Old Frightful

Grenfell Tower Block fire in London.

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

The recent heart warming scenes in this country both in Manchester and London proves there's not much wrong with our population.

So much for - " There's No Such Thing As Socirty "

What an idiot woman.

Whilst I would in no way support Mrs Thatcher the constant use of this line taken out of context annoys me.

What she said was:

I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it: 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society.

There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation.

And this is an example of people sorting things out themselves, not relying on Government intervention so by sending tea to Grenfell Tower you are a Thatcherite :ph34r:

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JohnM said:

Harman was up there through with her shameful  politicking whilst people were losing their lives. 

The gall of this women.  After raising the issues for 7 years after the Lakanal fire, which killed 6 of her constituents, she should know her place.   She should of been satisfied with a number of ministers telling her that the recommendations of the inquest were being looked into.  How dare she.  

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

The gall of this women.  After raising the issues for 7 years after the Lakanal fire, which killed 6 of her constituents, she should know her place.   She should of been satisfied with a number of ministers telling her that the recommendations of the inquest were being looked into.  How dare she.  

If it was Labour that was being subject to scrutiny, the usual suspects on here would have been all over this.

When all the questions are known, some answers will be required.

In the meantime there are facts being published on news feeds that are bound to prompt discussion anger and outpouring of emotion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, tonyXIII said:

This is not new. Back in the late 60s/early 70s, my dad had a drinking pal who was a clerk of works for Manchester Council. He was told by his bosses that he was finding too many faults and needed to pass more of the works he inspected. He compromised and passed anything faulty that was merely decorative and failed anything that was potentially dangerous. He was tearing his hair out in the end. Anecdotal, I know, but it's not always the building inspectors' fault. They will have 'targets' to meet.

When did we all decide to give up on quality and settle for bloody 'targets'?

 

I agree with you on building inspector...one I knew as said was brilliant, he could never understand the Council's logic or lack of understanding of regulations..My gripe was against untrained surveyors been left to oversee projects, especially large projects...Also I have no idea how many Tower block are in RBKC, but add them to the other housing stock n how can KCTMO effectively manage them..they do not have a huge army of  staff. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder how connected this dreadful fire is  to another fire?  Cameron's "bonfire of regulation?"  A bit like BSE was suspected to be connected to a reduction in agricultural regulation by the Thatcher government.

Edited by Trojan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Trojan said:

I wonder how connected this dreadful fire is  to another fire?  Cameron's "bonfire of regulation?"  A bit like BSE was suspected to be connected to a reduction in agricultural regulation by the Thatcher government.

BSE was connected to the green lobby banning the use of chlorinated solvents in the rendering process for offal destined for animal-feedstock production. Although it was an unintentional side-effect, the CHCl's destroyed  prions that are (what is assumed to be) the cause of BSE.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Robin Evans said:

If it was Labour that was being subject to scrutiny, the usual suspects on here would have been all over this.

When all the questions are known, some answers will be required.

In the meantime there are facts being published on news feeds that are bound to prompt discussion anger and outpouring of emotion.

I suppose it is inevitable that some people, including politicians, will be keen to present themselves as instant authorities after a tragedy like this.

But it strikes me that this is precisely an area in which we should leave it to the experts to tell us why it happened and what could be done to ensure it doesn't happen again.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

But it strikes me that this is precisely an area in which we should leave it to the experts to tell us why it happened and what could be done to ensure it doesn't happen again.

Lakanal fire in 2009.  Urgent report from Chief fire and rescue advisor commissioned in same year.  Inquest in 2013.  All party group report in 2013.  Recommendations still under review in 2017.

With the likely death toll of this disaster I doubt feet will be dragged as much.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Questions need adequate responses. I really don't give a fk what colour rosette the responsible gaffer wears....

If it happens on someone's watch they need to take accountability....

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

Lakanal fire in 2009.  Urgent report from Chief fire and rescue advisor commissioned in same year.  Inquest in 2013.  All party group report in 2013.  Recommendations still under review in 2017.

With the likely death toll of this disaster I doubt feet will be dragged as much.  

You are assuming the two events are the same, and besides, Southwark Council has just been fined for breach of safety policy on that occasion.  And they were in breach of policy back then so the policy back then, had it been adhered to, may have been sufficient to protect those people who lost their lives.  Just as today's policy may be sufficient to have protected the lost this time had it been adhered to.  However, since as yet the fire has still to be completely extinguished never mind an investigation completed, we are in total ignorance as to whether the current regulations were sufficient but they weren't met in this instance, whether the current regulations were not sufficient but nobody could have foreseen what happened, etc, etc.  There are all questions at the moment and no answers because the fire has still not been completely extinguished.

A colleague of mine has a dad who used to be a fire officer with the Fire Service.  He switched off the TV last night because he became so irate at the irresponsibility of the media and politicians.  They are all Labour supporting incidentally. 

Edited by Saintslass

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

(trimmed)

A colleague of mine has a dad who used to be a fire officer with the Fire Service.  He switched off the TV last night because he became so irate at the irresponsibility of the media and politicians.  They are all Labour supporting incidentally. 

Who are?

And why does it matter?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Martyn Sadler said:

But it strikes me that this is precisely an area in which we should leave it to the experts to tell us why it happened and what could be done to ensure it doesn't happen again.

Indeed. But, like many other things, there is inevitably a political dimension, because it is politicians who decide spending priorities. The number of people killed in Britain in the past decade by terrorist attacks and the number killed in tower block fires are not that dissimilar. One problem commands huge amounts of resources and political posturing and is unlikely to ever be completely solved. The other can potentially be fixed without spending tens of billions each year. The same argument could be made in many other areas, of course, and one could argue that the number of terrorism deaths has been kept low precisely because we have spent lots of money on the problem

In the case of Lakanal, there are other blocks of exactly the same design and seemingly the only tangible outcome of that fire is in February 2017, eight years later Southwark Council pleaded guilty in court and was fined.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, JonM said:

In the case of Lakanal, there are other blocks of exactly the same design and seemingly the only tangible outcome of that fire is in February 2017, eight years later Southwark Council pleaded guilty in court and was fined.

Not true according to reports.  Many of the recommendations made as a result of the 2009 event have been put in place, but not all of them.  Nobody has yet advised us which are the recommendations that haven't been implemented as far as I can remember from all the reading I have done so far. 

In terms of design, the fact that Grenfell block was built when it was meant it was safer than had it been built a few years earlier.  Apparently there was a block collapse in the early 1970s which led to a wholesale change in how tower blocks are built.  The reason Grenfell has not fallen down (yet) is because it was built after the changes had been made.

As I've said before, this may be another such moment: when experts discover that there is a combination of structure and/or materials which create significant hazard.  It may not be such a moment either.  We will have to wait and see because the answers aren't going to be known for weeks.

It is also noteworthy that in recent years there has been massive pressure on builders to consider 'green' stuff, like insulation and environmental protections.  If they had been missed out of this refurbishment there would have been Outrage.  However, it may be that materials used for insulation may also be undermining fire safety and so the two pressures may not be compatible.  Lots to consider I am sure for those with the job of doing so.  I don't envy them, whoever they are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

The gall of this women.  After raising the issues for 7 years after the Lakanal fire, which killed 6 of her constituents, she should know her place.   She should of been satisfied with a number of ministers telling her that the recommendations of the inquest were being looked into.  How dare she.  

It's more that she's talking as if she knows the answers to an investigation that hasn't even begun yet.  She has no business doing that and actual experts must be tearing their hair out with the number of idiots thinking they know the answers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Retro fitting sprinkler systems throughout the country will be an absolutely monumental undertaking. Obviously the time to install all the piping etc is when the blocks are being erected. 

Having said that anyone old enough to remember another monumental task, the nationwide conversion of every gas appliance from town gas to North Sea gas, would know it can be done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Retro fitting sprinkler systems throughout the country will be an absolutely monumental undertaking. Obviously the time to install all the piping etc is when the blocks are being erected. 

Having said that anyone old enough to remember another monumental task, the nationwide conversion of every gas appliance from town gas to North Sea gas, would know it can be done.

May I quote our immediate past Prime Minister, that nice Mr Cameron?

"My message to the country today is this. Money is no object in this relief effort, whatever money is needed for it will be spent. We will take whatever steps are necessary". He insisted "we are a wealthy country and we have taken good care of our public finances".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Retro fitting sprinkler systems throughout the country will be an absolutely monumental undertaking. Obviously the time to install all the piping etc is when the blocks are being erected. 

Having said that anyone old enough to remember another monumental task, the nationwide conversion of every gas appliance from town gas to North Sea gas, would know it can be done.

Most houses at that ti9me just had one maybe two appliances . Not sure converting to Natural gas and fitting sprinkler systems are similar tasks .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't there an issue with water pressure after a certain level/story?

Surely they should be looking at how a fire can be contained in a single flat, or even floor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Mark S said:

Isn't there an issue with water pressure after a certain level/story?

Surely they should be looking at how a fire can be contained in a single flat, or even floor.

That has been done.  That's why there is a 'stay put' policy with fires in blocks of flats.  It may turn out that that is still the best advice.  Apparently they have risers in flats, wet and dry.  Wet risers are always filled with water so that fire fighters can use them to put out fires from within at high levels without having to drag hoses up.  However, this fire took hold so quickly and so widely that the fire fighters didn't get the chance.  Or that is what one of the officers of the crews said last night on TV.  The head of the fire service in London said she had not seen anything like this in her 29 years of service.

Edited by Saintslass

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Saintslass said:

It's more that she's talking as if she knows the answers to an investigation that hasn't even begun yet.  She has no business doing that and actual experts must be tearing their hair out with the number of idiots thinking they know the answers.

And there you are confidently expounding on a few posts below this ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was a lot of talk from residents calling Nick Ferrari's LBC breakfast show this morning about the installation of a new gas system in the building being installed in the past few weeks much to residents disgust, so no doubt there will be plenty to come out of the investigation.


On the same call there was also a thought provoking call from a London Fire Fighter explaining how cuts mean't that trucks now tend to arrive with 4 firefighters on board rather than a minimum of 5, it takes 4 to lift the ladder off the back let alone operate pumps, take control of the incident if there first to arrive, etc etc. He also said the aerial platform unit used to assist had had to come from Surrey.

He painted a shocking picture, but to be fair him and his collegues have been doing for years, just few choose to listen.

There was also this piece on Gavin Barwell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, shrek said:

There was a lot of talk from residents calling Nick Ferrari's LBC breakfast show this morning about the installation of a new gas system in the building being installed in the past few weeks much to residents disgust, so no doubt there will be plenty to come out of the investigation.


On the same call there was also a thought provoking call from a London Fire Fighter explaining how cuts mean't that trucks now tend to arrive with 4 firefighters on board rather than a minimum of 5, it takes 4 to lift the ladder off the back let alone operate pumps, take control of the incident if there first to arrive, etc etc. He also said the aerial platform unit used to assist had had to come from Surrey.

He painted a shocking picture, but to be fair him and his collegues have been doing for years, just few choose to listen.

There was also this piece on Gavin Barwell.

Well we don't want a nasty looking concrete tower blotting the landcaspe around the Westfield in Kensington, do we. 

 

^^^^^Sarcasm^^^^^

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, shrek said:

There was a lot of talk from residents calling Nick Ferrari's LBC breakfast show this morning about the installation of a new gas system in the building being installed in the past few weeks much to residents disgust, so no doubt there will be plenty to come out of the investigation.


On the same call there was also a thought provoking call from a London Fire Fighter explaining how cuts mean't that trucks now tend to arrive with 4 firefighters on board rather than a minimum of 5, it takes 4 to lift the ladder off the back let alone operate pumps, take control of the incident if there first to arrive, etc etc. He also said the aerial platform unit used to assist had had to come from Surrey.

The drone being used came from Kent.  I'm not sure that anyone would expect a force to contain enough fire fighters to fight that kind of fire on a permanent basis.  That would be ridiculous.  We don't have infernos on a regular basis.  Other forces come to help in extreme circumstances.  Nobody has any problem with the idea of police forces helping each other out when a terrorist attack occurs, regardless of numbers.  It is what happened with 7/7 and happens the world over.  When a major incident occurs, colleagues from neighbouring services help out.  That is good practice.

As for what the fire fighter says about cuts: it may be the case that they are under pressure but then you could have had 50,000 fire fighters at this fire and nothing would have changed.  The first fire fighters got there in under six minutes to see a conflagration.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


League Express - Online Now

League Express - Every Monday



Rugby League World - Sept 2018

Rugby League World - Sept 2018

Rugby League Books On Sale Here