Superleague not for sale

[The Parksider]

As reported on here by Leigh fans and in the RL press it appears both Leigh and Widnes had direct approaches to sell their Superleague "Franchises" from Mr. Perez who had himself stated that Montreal were ready to join his Toronto project. 

It appears Derek Beaumont was having too great a party to accept any offer (if Leigh's SL place was ever his to sell) Widnes's major press conference therefore left some fans with baited breath that they may be selling out. Crowds not up to O'Connors expectations year after year also fuelled the speculation.

In the end "All it was" was Betts announcing some undewhelming signings & contract deals. However on closer inspection the lengths of the deals were for years hence and Betts also said Widnes were "building" something.

Rather than selling it out.this was a statement of we are here to stay. I didn't hear the news until after the TV game last night and the scores racking up against Widnes & Leigh made me wonder if they had sold out.

"Widnes/Leigh" appeared on the hand written agenda for the recent SL meeting about the future (No league express did not "make this up"). I can only assume why this was was fellow SL clubs hearing direct from Beaumont and O'Connor whether they were going to try any such deal, albeit again I cannot see that their SL place is theirs to sell.

Anyway Superleague is not for sale to Canadian RL

Had it been and had it happened English SL clubs would have been leaving SL for certain major demise in the Championship whilst rich Canadian owners would have been putting SL players into Canadian jerseys, whilst quietly forgetting that they promised to develop their own players, which has been increasingly forgiven by some as it would "take 20 years".

Many on here think wrongly that the RFL put Toronto in the Championship so they could play their way to a Superleague place. No such place is available without Superleague accepting them as guests like Catalans. Toronto appear to have tried to buy invitations and it appears they have had that door shut on them with this press conference.

Good thing or bad? Should we really have gradually sold out SL clubs who have been called "dross" by some people to Toronto, Montreal and then (as stated quite early on in all this) Boston and New York replacing Huddersfield and Wakefield?.

At the start of all this on a muddy playing field in Brighouse we wondered what the future would bring. But we know now that the future was, a "cheeky" bid to buy up English clubs places in Superleague. 

Is the "Not for sale" sign that has gone up good or bad news?

[Oxford]

Although I would dispute  much of the basis on which you made this OP/thread the basic question, however one sided is important.

What we accept in this instance will determine much about our future as a sport.

I doubt very much if Mr Perez did this, he did so just off his own bat without being informed and encouraged by some in the game into believing it was a possibility.

While clubs see the positive side of the middle eights has a chance to maintain their SL status and that both clubs mentioned fought long and hard to get it in the first place they're extremely unlikely to be tempted.

And who calls these teams the "dross"?

[Spidey]

Who made the direct approach to Widnes? When/where was this reported?

[Wellsy4HullFC]

26 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

 

 Had it been and had it happened English SL clubs would have been leaving SL for certain major demise in the Championship whilst rich Canadian owners would have been putting SL players into Canadian jerseys, whilst quietly forgetting that they promised to develop their own players, which has been increasingly forgiven by some as it would "take 20 years".

Same point, different wrapping.

I'm not sure what you're expecting? How can they produce players in less than a year as a team?

No one is forgetting anything, you are just not understanding that you cannot instantly produce elite athletes. What you seem to expect is literally nonsense. It's either that, or a case of you giving impossible standards as you inherently want them to fail.

I have a feeling though that we are going to hear this line "they're not producing players" on every Canadian thread for ages now. It's already daft.

[Dave T]

6 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Same point, different wrapping.

I'm not sure what you're expecting? How can they produce players in less than a year as a team?

No one is forgetting anything, you are just not understanding that you cannot instantly produce elite athletes. What you seem to expect is literally nonsense. It's either that, or a case of you giving impossible standards as you inherently want them to fail.

I have a feeling though that we are going to hear this line "they're not producing players" on every Canadian thread for ages now. It's already daft.

He understands.

I still suspect he is Martyn Sadler click-bait. Would be brilliant trolling.

[Oxford]

12 minutes ago, Dave T said:

He understands.

I still suspect he is Martyn Sadler click-bait. Would be brilliant trolling.

Yes filling out a story with the "Fans are unhappy with ...... " and "It's generally accepted now that ...." or "It's well known withing the game that ......" can save time, effort and research and you don't even have to prove any of it. You have to laugh!

The thing is if any team looked in danger of relegation and accepted such an offer would that mean Toronto would buy in to being relegated?

Also if this dreamy scenario were real the relegated team would enter the Championship with a bag-full of cash which would certainly be an incentive and a huge help in getting back up. 

And would the Bulls be able to do so or would this option only be for clubs from across the pond?

1 NLN

[Tommygilf]

13 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Who made the direct approach to Widnes? When/where was this reported?

Ironically, considering the OPs anti-toronto/canada bias, the only "reported rumour" of Widnes being approached to sell up and swap was (in LE) from Wasps in Coventry. Now unless there's been some Brexit deal I've not heard about where we've swapped Coventry for Calais, Coventry is still in England and thus the OP is at least half based on baseless speculation to support an overall point. 

[Oxford]

53 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

thus the OP is at least half based on baseless speculation to support an overall point. 

Surely not!

 

0   -1

[Spidey]

8 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Ironically, considering the OPs anti-toronto/canada bias, the only "reported rumour" of Widnes being approached to sell up and swap was (in LE) from Wasps in Coventry. Now unless there's been some Brexit deal I've not heard about where we've swapped Coventry for Calais, Coventry is still in England and thus the OP is at least half based on baseless speculation to support an overall point. 

That article was certainly speculation, the Wasps bloke showed an interest in buying a place. At no point did it state that he approached Widnes directly

That was kind of my point. I'm happy to debate these topics, but only when based on a bit more than speculation like above

[Oxford]

40 minutes ago, Spidey said:

That article was certainly speculation, the Wasps bloke showed an interest in buying a place. At no point did it state that he approached Widnes directly

That was kind of my point. I'm happy to debate these topics, but only when based on a bit more than speculation like above

Yeah but it's a bit like a car crash horrible but you can't help but look!

[East Coast Tiger]

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

As reported on here by Leigh fans and in the RL press it appears both Leigh and Widnes had direct approaches to sell their Superleague "Franchises" from Mr. Perez who had himself stated that Montreal were ready to join his Toronto project. 

It appears Derek Beaumont was having too great a party to accept any offer (if Leigh's SL place was ever his to sell) Widnes's major press conference therefore left some fans with baited breath that they may be selling out. Crowds not up to O'Connors expectations year after year also fuelled the speculation.

In the end "All it was" was Betts announcing some undewhelming signings & contract deals. However on closer inspection the lengths of the deals were for years hence and Betts also said Widnes were "building" something.

Rather than selling it out.this was a statement of we are here to stay. I didn't hear the news until after the TV game last night and the scores racking up against Widnes & Leigh made me wonder if they had sold out.

"Widnes/Leigh" appeared on the hand written agenda for the recent SL meeting about the future (No league express did not "make this up"). I can only assume why this was was fellow SL clubs hearing direct from Beaumont and O'Connor whether they were going to try any such deal, albeit again I cannot see that their SL place is theirs to sell.

Anyway Superleague is not for sale to Canadian RL

Had it been and had it happened English SL clubs would have been leaving SL for certain major demise in the Championship whilst rich Canadian owners would have been putting SL players into Canadian jerseys, whilst quietly forgetting that they promised to develop their own players, which has been increasingly forgiven by some as it would "take 20 years".

Many on here think wrongly that the RFL put Toronto in the Championship so they could play their way to a Superleague place. No such place is available without Superleague accepting them as guests like Catalans. Toronto appear to have tried to buy invitations and it appears they have had that door shut on them with this press conference.

Good thing or bad? Should we really have gradually sold out SL clubs who have been called "dross" by some people to Toronto, Montreal and then (as stated quite early on in all this) Boston and New York replacing Huddersfield and Wakefield?.

At the start of all this on a muddy playing field in Brighouse we wondered what the future would bring. But we know now that the future was, a "cheeky" bid to buy up English clubs places in Superleague. 

Is the "Not for sale" sign that has gone up good or bad news?

Who are these Canadian owners?

You do know the Wolfpack owner is Australian right?

So let's get this straight, you're happy to call an Australian Canadian but a born and bred Canadian player is only an "adopted Canadian" because one of his parents was born in New Zealand.

Consistency is right up there with truth and accuracy as things of mystery to you hey.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

That article was certainly speculation, the Wasps bloke showed an interest in buying a place. At no point did it state that he approached Widnes directly

That was kind of my point. I'm happy to debate these topics, but only when based on a bit more than speculation like above

Dont forget, the OP only deals in facts.

He reads the RL press dont you know.

[Spidey]

Just now, Dave T said:

Dont forget, the OP only deals in facts.

He reads the RL press dont you know.

What do us freeloaders know anyway? ??

[West Leeds Riviera]

Are Waps still interested? Surely they could but Coventry Bears and bankroll them up to SL

[RabbitRhinoovOZ]

The OP raises a very valid point regarding the time frame before a potential Canadian SL side would start producing talent.

You need look no further than the Melbourne Storm to see how expanding into non RL areas pans out, Storm have been in the comp for 20 years and have produced 1 player in all those years Mahe Fonua? And this is after an incredibly long run of success over that period of time that you'd have to think has attracted the maximum amount of interest possible.

All the expansion for the sake of it cheer squad will no doubt shoot me down but I don't see any benefit in having a Melbourne RL club other than a bit extra on a TV deal, My concern is Canada may well be the Melbourne of the SL but I hope I'm wrong.

[Tommygilf]

32 minutes ago, West Leeds Riviera said:

Are Waps still interested? Surely they could but Coventry Bears and bankroll them up to SL

With the "supposed" unpredictability of promotion through the middle 8s they probably view it as easier to skip it out. Sadly they're probably listening to the most negative views of the middle 8s. A team spending up to Salary cap (as you'd imagine they would) will be able to get through them. Whether the bears want to be owned by wasps is also another question. 

[East Coast Tiger]

20 minutes ago, RabbitRhinoovOZ said:

The OP raises a very valid point regarding the time frame before a potential Canadian SL side would start producing talent.

You need look no further than the Melbourne Storm to see how expanding into non RL areas pans out, Storm have been in the comp for 20 years and have produced 1 player in all those years Mahe Fonua? And this is after an incredibly long run of success over that period of time that you'd have to think has attracted the maximum amount of interest possible.

All the expansion for the sake of it cheer squad will no doubt shoot me down but I don't see any benefit in having a Melbourne RL club other than a bit extra on a TV deal, My concern is Canada may well be the Melbourne of the SL but I hope I'm wrong.

I hope they are. Not only have they actually brought through Fonua and Young Tonumaipea but also Widdop played junior league in Melbourne and got his chance with the Storm as a result. This in a tougher competition than SL. Their crowds are also on par with any of the decades old clubs in Sydney so locals there don't seem to care where their players are from. Since the Storm have entered the NRL the game in Victoria has grown significantly both on and off the field in an extremely prejudicial environment and their presence adds millions to tv deals and sponsorship and underpins events such as Origin at the MCG and internationals such as the two World Cup games this year. The Victorian senior rep team, under 18s and schoolboy sides are now regularly beating corresponding teams from WA and NT, which was never the case more than 10 years ago. On top of that they were the first club to recruit players directly from the Fijian competition and we are now seeing the impact of that kind of intelligent development that Sydney clubs have consistently failed to realise. Quite frankly if you can't see the benefit of the Storm you must have a pretty serious cognitive disorder or you're just offering more of the kind of unreasonable prejudice the Storm have been overcoming for nearly 20 years now. A Melbourne Storm type club in other new markets like Canada would be brilliant for the game. Not that anyone other than you is making irrelevant comparisons between the Storm and Toronto or any other real or imagined expansion team. So you do have to "look further" but, alas, some people can't. Some people can't look far at all.

[GaryO]

55 minutes ago, RabbitRhinoovOZ said:

The OP raises a very valid point regarding the time frame before a potential Canadian SL side would start producing talent.

You need look no further than the Melbourne Storm to see how expanding into non RL areas pans out, Storm have been in the comp for 20 years and have produced 1 player in all those years Mahe Fonua? And this is after an incredibly long run of success over that period of time that you'd have to think has attracted the maximum amount of interest possible.

All the expansion for the sake of it cheer squad will no doubt shoot me down but I don't see any benefit in having a Melbourne RL club other than a bit extra on a TV deal, My concern is Canada may well be the Melbourne of the SL but I hope I'm wrong.

What is the infrastructure in Melbourne of non professional Rugby League, are there kids,  junior, intermediate and open age leagues? Why is the area not producing professional players.

Ala,TWP who are getting good (superb) attendances for a fledgling club, Storm are getting in the region of 15,000 average -from memory- over the season, so the local interest must be there, and it is not as though they will be starved of top class RL on the media. 

I have always been of the opinion that to build a conveyor belt of talent that can go on to be professional players from "virgin" territory  would take at least 2 if not 3 generations, OK there will always be an exception to the rule and one or two may break through, but if leagues have to be formed those who compete against each other have to attain a standard of excellence that will allow the best to proceed further, it is an evolutionary process which will take time, is this what is happening in Melbourne?

Again the comparison continues, We keep being informed that there are all these supreme athletes in North America (which i do not doubt for one minute) that are ready made with their sports background to make the transition to RL, surely the Melbourne area must be awash with sporting talent in other sports that could equally make the transition, where are they, or why are they not coming through.

East coast tiger responded whilst I was writing my bit, but I will stand by evolutionary process.

 

[RabbitRhinoovOZ]

9 minutes ago, East Coast Tiger said:

I hope they are. Not only have they actually brought through Fonua and Young Tonumaipea but also Widdop played junior league in Melbourne and got his chance with the Storm as a result. This in a tougher competition than SL. Their crowds are also on par with any of the decades old clubs in Sydney so locals there don't seem to care where their players are from. Since the Storm have entered the NRL the game in Victoria has grown significantly both on and off the field in an extremely prejudicial environment and their presence adds millions to tv deals and sponsorship and underpins events such as Origin at the MCG and internationals such as the two World Cup games this year. The Victorian senior rep team, under 18s and schoolboy sides are now regularly beating corresponding teams from WA and NT, which was never the case more than 10 years ago. On top of that they were the first club to recruit players directly from the Fijian competition and we are now seeing the impact of that kind of intelligent development that Sydney clubs have consistently failed to realise. Quite frankly if you can't see the benefit of the Storm you must have a pretty serious cognitive disorder or you're just offering more of the kind of unreasonable prejudice the Storm have been overcoming for nearly 20 years now. A Melbourne Storm type club in other new markets like Canada would be brilliant for the game. Not that anyone other than you is making irrelevant comparisons between the Storm and Toronto or any other real or imagined expansion team. So you do have to "look further" but, alas, some people can't. Some people can't look far at all.

Sorry bud Garth Widdop was 16-17 when he arrived in Melbourne so lets not get carried away with the "He's a Melbourne product" rubbish- Nice try though & The second Local junior you list there is so good I've never heard of him. By that same rational the Roosters with almost zero junior RL could be credited as the greatest production line in RL ever  given there long record of poaching the best 16-18yo talent to put in there under 20's side (does this make them Easts juniors?) I don't think so.

The Storm are brilliant at recruiting Fijian players no doubt about that, Maybe they should just relocate Melbourne to Fiji so there closer to there player pool? Or perhaps ship them up to QLD where the other half of them team comes from?

Anyway I did add that I'd be shot down by the dreamers so thanks' for not letting me down lol.

[Scubby]

14 minutes ago, GaryO said:

What is the infrastructure in Melbourne of non professional Rugby League, are there kids,  junior, intermediate and open age leagues? Why is the area not producing professional players.

Ala,TWP who are getting good (superb) attendances for a fledgling club, Storm are getting in the region of 15,000 average -from memory- over the season, so the local interest must be there, and it is not as though they will be starved of top class RL on the media. 

I have always been of the opinion that to build a conveyor belt of talent that can go on to be professional players from "virgin" territory  would take at least 2 if not 3 generations, OK there will always be an exception to the rule and one or two may break through, but if leagues have to be formed those who compete against each other have to attain a standard of excellence that will allow the best to proceed further, it is an evolutionary process which will take time, is this what is happening in Melbourne?

Again the comparison continues, We keep being informed that there are all these supreme athletes in North America (which i do not doubt for one minute) that are ready made with their sports background to make the transition to RL, surely the Melbourne area must be awash with sporting talent in other sports that could equally make the transition, where are they, or why are they not coming through.

East coast tiger responded whilst I was writing my bit, but I will stand by evolutionary process.

 

Melbourne Storm and Toronto aim to be elite RL clubs. One is, the other is a long way off. You don't simply drag people off the local streets to keep keyboard warriors happy who may or may not have ever played the game.

Manchester City and Chelsea spend 10s of millions of pounds on junior development. Football is the national game in the UK. How many scholarship kids at those clubs have played in the premier league in the last 5-10 years? Fans genuinely don't give a stuff.

[East Coast Tiger]

4 minutes ago, RabbitRhinoovOZ said:

Sorry bud Garth Widdop was 16-17 when he arrived in Melbourne so lets not get carried away with the "He's a Melbourne product" rubbish- Nice try though & The second Local junior you list there is so good I've never heard of him. By that same rational the Roosters with almost zero junior RL could be credited as the greatest production line in RL ever  given there long record of poaching the best 16-18yo talent to put in there under 20's side (does this make them Easts juniors?) I don't think so.

The Storm are brilliant at recruiting Fijian players no doubt about that, Maybe they should just relocate Melbourne to Fiji so there closer to there player pool? Or perhaps ship them up to QLD where the other half of them team comes from?

Anyway I did add that I'd be shot down by the dreamers so thanks' for not letting me down lol.

Maybe if you don't know about Victorian NRL players choosing to comment on Victorian NRL players is a pretty bad idea. Not only have you not heard of one of their players (he was literally running around for them 15 minutes ago) but Widdop was 15 when he arrived in Melbourne and if you think he'd be a professional rugby league player now without the Storm you're the "dreamer". 

But given your admitted ignorance on the subject (not that it's stopped you commenting) there's little point considering your opinion, either on this topic or your attitude towards expansion. Someone openly displaying and admitting ignorance and denouncing both expansion and supporters of expansion in the same post is such a delightful summary of people with your attitude. And as for a Souths supporter suggesting a club relocate away from where it is actually from without any obvious acknowledgement of irony highlights it further.

[GaryO]

6 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Melbourne Storm and Toronto aim to be elite RL clubs. One is, the other is a long way off. You don't simply drag people off the local streets to keep keyboard warriors happy who may or may not have ever played the game.

Manchester City and Chelsea spend 10s of millions of pounds on junior development. Football is the national game in the UK. How many scholarship kids at those clubs have played in the premier league in the last 5-10 years? Fans genuinely don't give a stuff.

With due respect Scubby not a clue what your response is getting to in reply to my statement, the crux of it being that it will be a long time before Canada or any where else for that matter that is new to the game will be able to produce professional quality player's in good numbers.

 

[RabbitRhinoovOZ]

52 minutes ago, GaryO said:

What is the infrastructure in Melbourne of non professional Rugby League, are there kids,  junior, intermediate and open age leagues? Why is the area not producing professional players.

Ala,TWP who are getting good (superb) attendances for a fledgling club, Storm are getting in the region of 15,000 average -from memory- over the season, so the local interest must be there, and it is not as though they will be starved of top class RL on the media. 

I have always been of the opinion that to build a conveyor belt of talent that can go on to be professional players from "virgin" territory  would take at least 2 if not 3 generations, OK there will always be an exception to the rule and one or two may break through, but if leagues have to be formed those who compete against each other have to attain a standard of excellence that will allow the best to proceed further, it is an evolutionary process which will take time, is this what is happening in Melbourne?

Again the comparison continues, We keep being informed that there are all these supreme athletes in North America (which i do not doubt for one minute) that are ready made with their sports background to make the transition to RL, surely the Melbourne area must be awash with sporting talent in other sports that could equally make the transition, where are they, or why are they not coming through.

East coast tiger responded whilst I was writing my bit, but I will stand by evolutionary process.

 

G'day Gary,

I suspect your spot on in regards to it taking a couple of generations in these non RL areas to start producing talented kids who'll make the cut.

In the case of Melbourne you would kind of have to know the place to know what RL is up against down there, I'm not kidding when I say half of the people sitting in the stands watching the Storm on any given week have absolutely no idea RL & RU are different sports!

A couple of weeks ago I attended a function where there where a large group of Victorians in attendance, I got chatting with one couple and brought up RL when the lady informed me she was a Storm fan, I thought great but she then asked me how many "flags" (AFL talk for a premiership) the Storm need to win before they progress into the same division as the "Melbourne Rebels" (The RU side) so they have a local rivalry! I was gob smacked by this. This woman actually thought because they don't understand after 20 years there are 2 "Rugbys" that the Storm where in the 2nd division trying to progress to the same level as the Rebels!!,

I'm 100% behind the "Wolfpack" being a success but I do have my reservations .

[East Coast Tiger]

1 minute ago, GaryO said:

With due respect Scubby not a clue what your response is getting to in reply to my statement, the crux of it being that it will be a long time before Canada or any where else for that matter that is new to the game will be able to produce professional quality player's in good numbers.

 

Or even plenty of places which are (100 years worth of) not new to the game.

[RabbitRhinoovOZ]

4 minutes ago, East Coast Tiger said:

Maybe if you don't know about Victorian NRL players choosing to comment on Victorian NRL players is a pretty bad idea. Not only have you not heard of one of their players (he was literally running around for them 15 minutes ago) but Widdop was 15 when he arrived in Melbourne and if you think he'd be a professional rugby league player now without the Storm you're the "dreamer". 

But given your admitted ignorance on the subject (not that it's stopped you commenting) there's little point considering your opinion, either on this topic or your attitude towards expansion. Someone openly displaying and admitting ignorance and denouncing both expansion and supporters of expansion in the same post is such a delightful summary of people with your attitude. And as for a Souths supporter suggesting a club relocate away from where it is actually from without any obvious acknowledgement of irony highlights it further.

"And as for a Souths supporter suggesting a club relocate away from where it is actually from without any obvious acknowledgement of irony highlights it further."

No irony at all , We are the oldest and most successful RL club in this country - We are also year on end in the top two for membership and sponsorship , Add to this we have a great junior nursery who's been producing great RL talent for well over 100 years.

Keep on biting though I've got all night.