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Johnoco

Racial Harmony

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Johnoco    3,352

Serious honest question.....  Is racial harmony a non achievable dream? I don't think we're any closer than when I was 18, in fact I think it's further away than ever. Plenty of black people hate whites and vice versa with no sign of that changing.

I don't see any hope if I'm honest and can only see more conflict ahead.

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Robin Evans    778
9 hours ago, Johnoco said:

Serious honest question.....  Is racial harmony a non achievable dream? I don't think we're any closer than when I was 18, in fact I think it's further away than ever. Plenty of black people hate whites and vice versa with no sign of that changing.

I don't see any hope if I'm honest and can only see more conflict ahead.

I'd like to think you are so very wrong.... but experience suggests tension is increasing.

Since last June I have felt that racism is significant more open than it was prior to the brexit vote, but I'm not sure that's an indication of an increase in racial intolerance, just some folk appear more comfortable expressing such views behind the shield of 'brexit' patriotism etc.

I can (just) remember KBW painted on walls in the 60s and the NF of the 70s.

In my lifetime there has been an element of tension that I thought as we approached the 21st had started to disappear......

Political and social changes have not helped in stirring up tensions....

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Farmduck    1,577

Here's another TL;DR from the Farmduck Global Media Conglomerate:

 

It's the internet that has done most of the heavy lifting to get racism back into the mainstream consciousness. I like this metaphor. The bacterium Yersinia pestis, which causes Bubonic Plague is alive and well and thrives among resistant fleas and their mammal hosts in many countries, particularly Kazakhstan. We don't have plagues because the pathogen and its hosts are limited by isolation, climate, predators and government monitoring. The bacterium cannot establish a strong enough base among a human population to launch a full epidemic.

This is where the internet comes in. Racism was in decline but there were plenty of pockets of racist groups spread around the World, often not even knowing about the existence of each other. The occasional march by some Nazi or KKK group was attended mainly by people who turned up to laugh at them. The internet taught all these groups that their numbers were much bigger than they had realised and they developed corners of the web where their ideology went unchallenged.

While these ideologies were growing, other factors started to play major roles. Globalist economics and the financialisation of major economies led to historically high levels of unemployment among lower-skilled workers in many white and majority-white countries. Populist politicians with nothing else to offer voters pointed to "the others" as the source of all evil. Opponents of racist ideas reacted in a heavy-handed manner out of proportion to the size of the real problem. Groups like the ADL and Southern Poverty Law Centre denounced all disagreement as "hate speech" and drew up lists of effectively "banned persons." (Some of these lists now include people like Richard Dawkins and Erin Pizzey.)

This reaction against racism gave the White Supremacists exactly what they needed: a legitimate claim to being an oppressed minority. We know that underdog status can be a powerful unifier. In this case, I believe the underdog status was partly created by the hyperbolic actions of Identity Politics. If all these ubermenschen had simply been left alone in their trailer parks with unlimited supplies of crystal meth and guns, they would have died out but the identity politicians kept giving them real ammunition. The absence of skepticism by leftist politicians every time a new claim of victimhood was elevated into the public arena played a significant role. This was exacerbated in the USA by the Democratic Party's refusal to adopt any type of real socialist platform. Instead of saying "We represent the workers against the massive power of capital," they kept trying to pad out their numbers by adopting every new contestant in the victimhood Olympics - gays, blacks, hispanics, migrants, refugees, students, transgenders. Instead of addressing the specific concerns of each group, they unquestioningly accepted the oppression narrative because they wanted their votes. This allowed them to dogwhistle to what their analysts told them was a fertile voter base without being accused of any hint of Marxism or Socialism - allegedly instantly fatal in US politics.

The conservative elements of politics were led to a point where they asked, "Well, who do we have left that we can appeal to?" Since the purpose of modern politics in most Western "democracies" is to divide people into "us" and "them," the Right parties could no longer ignore the potential numbers and organisational potential of the racist fringe. They may only be 5-10% of the population but they have, thanks to the internet, substantial media reach beyond their hard-core. They have writers and speakers who can generalise the message into broader terms so that disgruntled people can relate to many of the issues they raise: "Well I don't actually hate blacks or Jews but I've been unemployed for a few years now and nobody's paying attention to me except these guys." The level of voting participation in the USA has played a role too. You don't need 51% of people to become President. You really only need about 27% and if the Nazi and KKK can deliver 10% of voters they can't be ignored.

 

I might come back to finish this off, I've got some stuff to do.

Edited by Farmduck
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Johnoco    3,352

That's a good analysis FD but of course there's more than that to it. Not only whites are racist (whatever some theories may espouse) and this is why I ask the question. If all white power groups vanished tomorrow, there would still be non whites who hate whites..it's a complicated issue and not one I hold out much hope for.

Bradford where I live, for instance, while not going to burst into race war, is way way more segregated than it was 30-40 years ago. That's not progress.

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Johnoco    3,352
2 hours ago, Robin Evans said:

I'd like to think you are so very wrong.... but experience suggests tension is increasing.

Since last June I have felt that racism is significant more open than it was prior to the brexit vote, but I'm not sure that's an indication of an increase in racial intolerance, just some folk appear more comfortable expressing such views behind the shield of 'brexit' patriotism etc.

I can (just) remember KBW painted on walls in the 60s and the NF of the 70s.

In my lifetime there has been an element of tension that I thought as we approached the 21st had started to disappear......

Political and social changes have not helped in stirring up tensions....

Which social changes do you think haven't helped? I'd also argue that if definitions of racism expand to include voting brexit or concerns about immigration (not based on race) then of course the number of people described as racist will increase.

But what I'm talking about is actual 'hate that person cos of their skin colour' to the extent that it leads to violence/unrest.

Edited by Johnoco
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Robin Evans    778
32 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Which social changes do you think haven't helped? I'd also argue that if definitions of racism expand to include voting brexit or concerns about immigration (not based on race) then of course the number of people described as racist will increase.

But what I'm talking about is actual 'hate that person cos of their skin colour' to the extent that it leads to violence/unrest.

And that is one area I'm talking about John.

I have a sense that racial hatred previously held in check has been 'liberated' somewhat by the brexit vote for those who'd always held those views. The perpetrators of such views perhaps feel they are more comfortable in expressing racial hatred in light of the vote.

My evidence is anecdotal and experiential. I've seen and heard much more of it on the streets.

Similarly there is a stronger feeling of entrenchment amongst the immigrant communities, particularly the Pakistani Bangladeshi and Afghan communities. Locally east European communities report they are being subjected to increasing abuse 

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Johnoco    3,352
41 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

And that is one area I'm talking about John.

I have a sense that racial hatred previously held in check has been 'liberated' somewhat by the brexit vote for those who'd always held those views. The perpetrators of such views perhaps feel they are more comfortable in expressing racial hatred in light of the vote.

My evidence is anecdotal and experiential. I've seen and heard much more of it on the streets.

Similarly there is a stronger feeling of entrenchment amongst the immigrant communities, particularly the Pakistani Bangladeshi and Afghan communities. Locally east European communities report they are being subjected to increasing abuse 

The Pakistani community is one of the most racist I've ever experienced. I work with several eastern Europeans and none say it's any different since brexit, not one (I know that's not conclusive proof btw)

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Farmduck    1,577
20 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

That's a good analysis FD but of course there's more than that to it. Not only whites are racist (whatever some theories may espouse) and this is why I ask the question. If all white power groups vanished tomorrow, there would still be non whites who hate whites..it's a complicated issue and not one I hold out much hope for.

Bradford where I live, for instance, while not going to burst into race war, is way way more segregated than it was 30-40 years ago. That's not progress.

I know that whites don't have a monopoly on racism. I was married to a Chinese woman and the Chinese make the KKK look like a bunch of limp-dick hippies singing Kumbaya when it comes to issues of racial supremacy. In our corner of the World, the Fiji Government has operated a blatant apartheid system for 50 years and Malaysia does the same. Nobody criticises them because American Identity Politicians have redefined racism as prejudice + power. That is, a minority cannot be racist because they don't have power because unspecified tortured logic means that something, something because reasons.

A perfect example is the unwillingness to call out Black Lives Matter on all the irrational points they put forward. The Left wouldn't do it because they wanted the black vote and the establishment Right wouldn't do it because they were scared of the backlash. The answer is to talk all these ideas out, in the full gaze of the public and keep doing it until people can see the fundamental absurdity of grouping people by ethnicity.

I've spent my whole life in a country full of immigrants - about 26% of Australians were born overseas and another 25% are children of people who were born overseas. Even when these people were white there were still others who tried to play up the Us v Them line. In my city, Blacktown, 36% of people were born outside Australia, predominantly Filipinos, Indians and Arabs, with a lot of Chinese and Vietnamese who got here one generation earlier. I've seen wave after wave of immigrants come here and the pattern is always the same: initial hostility towards newest group, often from the previous group, is followed by newest group's kids making friends at school and growing up OZ, intermarriage with other ethnic groups (10% among migrant generation, 30% among their children and 60% among their children.) We reach the point where racism is ridiculous because we don't have "pure" ethnicities to protect.

I think "segregation" is often poorly understood. In Australia, it is generally self-segregation for practical reasons. The first big wave of Greek migrants settled in Marrickville in Sydney because it was one of the cheapest areas and had lots of factories where English fluency wasn't necessary. Similarly, the Lebanese chose Lakemba and Belmore, the Vietnamese chose Cabramatta, the Filipinos chose Blacktown and the Chinese picked Ashfield. In Sydney these areas are effectively just "transit camps" for the first generation "off the boat." Once these people are settled they move out into the broader community. If this isn't happening in places like Bradford then I would look at other social policies and trends to see why this is happening.

Immigration is always a touchy subject and I have long been critical of the Australian Governments' (all of them for the last 30 years) immigration policies. I have no qualms about the ethnic mix (roughly 50% Asians, predominantly Indians, Chinese and Filipinos and approximately 6-10% refugees, currently from all over, including Sudan, West Africa, Burma and Iraq) but I question the economic rationale for the continued high level. We haven't had an open, broad-ranging public debate about immigration here because the racists groups always say something outlandish then the whole discussion is shut down because it's apparently getting out of control. This is completely the wrong approach. We need to talk this subject to death. I believe that, ultimately, we will be left with two simple truths: the primary purposes of our current immigration levels are to boost the economy and to maintain the suppressed-wage-growth environment that has dominated Australia for the last 20 years.

 

I'll take another break. Hopefully, when I come back, I will finally get to the point.

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Oxford    1,232
1 hour ago, Johnoco said:

That's not progress.

No that's people and the growing insular and isolationist attitudes to more or less everything. There will be periods of history ( evidence - the past ) where silly ideas and dangerous ones will predominate. Sadly, we're going through one right now ( evidence - the present ). This is even true to the extent that you're not allowed to say that the main reason for Brexit was questionable attitudes towards Europeans being in work in the UK. As for black people can be racist too, although true, the roots causes of that racism/hatred has to be laid at the door of white races expansion, colonialism and assumptions of superiority that can still dress itself up as patriotism.

Cover it in the Star Spangled Banner, the Stars and Bars or the Union Jack and it's simply becomes a little uglier.

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ckn    3,759

Overt racism is lower today than anytime I remember but covert racism is getting worse.

Examples of the former:

- My mother-in-law, an Indian Hindu immigrant, on driving past a black family near her house: "look at that, they shouldn't let (censored offensive name for black people that isn't the N word) like that move into good areas like this or even this country". At which point my wife reminded her of both her colour and original nationality.

- A young black lass at my wife's work was openly told she wasn't being invited to a leaving party because "my husband would just make a scene if one of your kind turned up". Thankfully virtually everyone else in the office decided to decline the invite as well in support.

Those things would have been quite common 20-30 years ago but are increasingly rare and increasingly seen as utterly unacceptable.

On the covert racism:

- "secret shopper" type job applications where nearly identicial candidates apply for the same job but with different ethnicity/regional type names shows an undeniable bias against people who have anything but a British stereotype name.  It really isn't subtle either.

- the last seat on a bus in London will usually be next to a non-white person. I've seen old and obviously infirm people stand rather than sit next to an Asian Muslim looking person.

- it's now acceptable to exclude white people from "equality and diversity" committees or forums at work, completely and utterly missing the point of equality and diversity.

There are lots more examples but I think you get the point. Racism is seen as acceptable as long as you don't do it overtly and right in people's faces. "I'm not racist because ..." followed by an excuse that shows they didn't overtly get into 1970s style Bernard Manning jokes or that they're not white themselves.

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Johnoco    3,352
1 hour ago, Oxford said:

No that's people and the growing insular and isolationist attitudes to more or less everything. There will be periods of history ( evidence - the past ) where silly ideas and dangerous ones will predominate. Sadly, we're going through one right now ( evidence - the present ). This is even true to the extent that you're not allowed to say that the main reason for Brexit was questionable attitudes towards Europeans being in work in the UK. As for black people can be racist too, although true, the roots causes of that racism/hatred has to be laid at the door of white races expansion, colonialism and assumptions of superiority that can still dress itself up as patriotism.

Cover it in the Star Spangled Banner, the Stars and Bars or the Union Jack and it's simply becomes a little uglier.

Bradford has become more segregated through the choice of the Muslim (read Pakistani) community because they want to live/school/worship separately. Not because of racism towards them. They *want* to be apart.

As for history, where do we draw the line and stop using that as an excuse?

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ckn    3,759
3 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Bradford has become more segregated through the choice of the Muslim (read Pakistani) community because they want to live/school/worship separately. Not because of racism towards them. They *want* to be apart.

As for history, where do we draw the line and stop using that as an excuse?

The thing that gets me on this is in the US where an increasing number of university non-white communities are deliberately self-segregating because it makes them more comfortable.  It makes a complete mockery of the equality fights that were fought over generations on the issue.

My view is that those who want to create self-segregated groups, regardless of their colour, that exclude others should be treated with the same disdain as, for example, we treat the racist comedians from the 1970s.  It's not acceptable.

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Johnoco    3,352
5 minutes ago, ckn said:

The thing that gets me on this is in the US where an increasing number of university non-white communities are deliberately self-segregating because it makes them more comfortable.  It makes a complete mockery of the equality fights that were fought over generations on the issue.

My view is that those who want to create self-segregated groups, regardless of their colour, that exclude others should be treated with the same disdain as, for example, we treat the racist comedians from the 1970s.  It's not acceptable.

I'd agree there. When I was younger, I had a dream brothers and sisters, that one day we'd all be equals. Now that seems to be old hat to some groups who want to live segregated. So what was it all about?

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Johnoco    3,352
22 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

Back to whites only cafs..... coloureds at the back of the bus???

Black ghettos whites fear?

Jeez John..... I really want you to be wrong....

Why would coloureds be at the back of the bus though? I haven't done a head count but expect that white people are actually in the minority on this earth. Why wouldn't it be the case that whites were at the back?

Note: this is not a thread about brexit, I'm talking worldwide. It really kicked in after the depressing scenes in Charlottesville the other night which served to remind me how divided the world is.

Edited by Johnoco

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32 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Bradford has become more segregated through the choice of the Muslim (read Pakistani) community because they want to live/school/worship separately. Not because of racism towards them. They *want* to be apart.

As for history, where do we draw the line and stop using that as an excuse?

This is a big part of the problem, the assumption that white people are the problem, either by being racist or causing others racism. Almost as if other races wouldn't be racist if left to their own devices. How was the Rwandan genocide a white issue?

As we are all humans, we are all capable of the same errors. Racism is caused by a fear of the other and in group mentality. I'm pretty sure if thousands of poor white-British had moved to the hypothetically richer India in the 1950s looking for work they'd have experienced much discrimination. It just so happens that white people have tended to be those with the power for the last few hundred years.

The world is easily less racist than it used to be IMO. The complete overreaction to a pretty tiny far-right rally in the US doesn't change this. I'm pretty sure anti-fascists have support 100 times higher than these far right types. We've just had a hugely successful athletics championships in this country where the majority of athletes were black and ethnic with almost no mention being made of this. 

Identity politics has contributed to a reversal of the trend towards harmony over the last few years. However well intentioned, it solidifies race and difference as well as demonizing certain sections of society, even if they happen to be the apparently most powerful. This can only lead to further division as you have in group out group mentality. 

The only answer to racism is to see past race, as it is often mentioned children don't see race, racism is a learned behaviour. This is where things seemed to be heading until about 5 years ago and is certainly how I was raised. Now the world is race obsessed but in the opposite way than it once was. 

 

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Johnoco    3,352
2 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

This is a big part of the problem, the assumption that white people are the problem, either by being racist or causing others racism. Almost as if other races wouldn't be racist if left to their own devices. How was the Rwandan genocide a white issue?

As we are all humans, we are all capable of the same errors. Racism is caused by a fear of the other and in group mentality. I'm pretty sure if thousands of poor white-British had moved to the hypothetically richer India in the 1950s looking for work they'd have experienced much discrimination. It just so happens that white people have tended to be those with the power for the last few hundred years.

The world is easily less racist than it used to be IMO. The complete overreaction to a pretty tiny far-right rally in the US doesn't change this. I'm pretty sure anti-fascists have support 100 times higher than these far right types. We've just had a hugely successful athletics championships in this country where the majority of athletes were black and ethnic with almost no mention being made of this. 

Identity politics has contributed to a reversal of the trend towards harmony over the last few years. However well intentioned, it solidifies race and difference as well as demonizing certain sections of society, even if they happen to be the apparently most powerful. This can only lead to further division as you have in group out group mentality. 

The only answer to racism is to see past race, as it is often mentioned children don't see race, racism is a learned behaviour. This is where things seemed to be heading until about 5 years ago and is certainly how I was raised. Now the world is race obsessed but in the opposite way than it once was. 

 

Very fair and well observed comment. I don't want to sound all doom and gloom...but I suppose I am really on this issue and you've highlighted why. People seem to be looking backwards and for reasons why blacks can't get on with whites and so forth.

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ckn    3,759
46 minutes ago, Trojan said:

What is the point of this thread?  So there is racism from ethnic white British and from ethnic non white British  What are we going to do about it should be the question.  IMO overt racism has become much worse since the referendum.

https://fullfact.org/crime/hate-crime-and-eu-referendum/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3obayNLW1QIVzbvtCh0lJgHmEAAYASAAEgJSJ_D_BwE

On your point on the EU referendum, it has allowed those who already held those views but couldn't express them to actually come out of their little racist closets, thinking that it's now acceptable.  There is also the unacknowledged subconscious stuff, for example, last week I had one recruiter ask if I was staying in the country post 2019, he wrongly assumed because my surname is an eastern European one that I was an EU immigrant and may be going "home"; I wonder how many others have looked at my name and just discarded my CV for that reason.

On the mainstream racism point, too many people are unwilling to fix it and concentrate on papering over cracks in society with bureaucracy.

The big problem is that there is an overshoot on "fixing" it with absolutely no idea what they're "fixing".  I'll give one example: the NHS.  It has all these wonderful and fantastic "equality and diversity" schemes, spends millions per year highlighting the problems that non-white, non-male and non-straight people have in getting first jobs and second promotions in the NHS, yet it fixes nothing.  There really is a problem, and it's a big one, here's a study on it that makes blunt reading (PDF).  The admittedly large organisation I worked for in the NHS has 8 "equality and diversity" full-time roles, led by a full-time Deputy Director, yet they still have an enormous problem with equality and diversity, some of the sexist, racist and discriminatory attitudes would make the most abrasive investment banking firm blush.  They have all these detailed and in-depth policies and procedures that people are regularly tested on but they make no effort at all to police people against them, as long as you can prove you've read the policy and understand it then that's enough.  It really is clear that all a manager has to do is know what the NHS processes say, and it was utterly irrelevant whether I was an outright racist or not, just as long as I could prove I'd read the documents.  Oh, and don't speak up because whistleblowers are shot on sight to encourage others to keep their heads down and mouths shut, they'd rather it went unmentioned and not embarrass them.

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Saintslass    1,300
50 minutes ago, Trojan said:

What is the point of this thread?  So there is racism from ethnic white British and from ethnic non white British  What are we going to do about it should be the question.  IMO overt racism has become much worse since the referendum.

https://fullfact.org/crime/hate-crime-and-eu-referendum/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3obayNLW1QIVzbvtCh0lJgHmEAAYASAAEgJSJ_D_BwE

I think it would be wise to separate overt racism and reports of hate crime.  There was a concerted campaign by the police to encourage reports of hate crime immediately following the referendum and so while people may not have reported any racism they experienced prior to the referendum, with encouragement from the campaign they decided to report it after the referendum.  Remember too that hate crime is subjective; it isn't measured by objective means as other crimes are.  If you happen to be in a bad mood one day, look at someone of another ethnicity, they could report that look as a hate crime.  I don't like the existence of subjective legislation; it would be much better - and provide a more accurate indicator of actual racism in this country - if there were objective criteria against which hate crimes could be measured.

Also, don't forget that after every terrorist event reports of hate crime rise, sometimes considerably.  We have had three major terrorist attacks this year.  Each one will have contributed to hate crime figures.

Edited by Saintslass

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Trojan    1,414
Just now, Saintslass said:

I think it would be wise to separate overt racism and reports of hate crime.  There was a concerted campaign by the police to encourage reports of hate crime immediately following the referendum and so while people may not have reported any racism they experienced prior to the referendum, with encouragement from the campaign they decided to report it after the referendum.  Remember too that hate crime is self-reporting; it isn't measured by objective means as other crimes are.  If you happen to be in a bad mood one day, look at someone of another ethnicity, they could report that look as a hate crime.  I don't like the existence of subjective legislation; it would be much better - and provide a more accurate indicator of actual racism in this country - if there were objective measures by which hate crimes could be prosecuted.

Also, don't forget that after every terrorist event reports of hate crime rise, sometimes considerably.  We have had three major terrorist attacks this year.  Each one will have contributed to hate crime figures.

Oh come off it.  The underlying theme of all the out organisations was racism.  The headlines in the papers screaming about immigrants every day set the tone.  The lie that millions of Turks were itching to come here. And all the rest.  The racism was already there.  After the referendum result the covert racists thought it was ok to come out in the open.  Any way you look at it Brexit is a disaster for our country.  Trouble is that by the time many people realise it, it'll be too late.

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Saintslass    1,300
1 minute ago, Trojan said:

Oh come off it.  The underlying theme of all the out organisations was racism.  The headlines in the papers screaming about immigrants every day set the tone.  The lie that millions of Turks were itching to come here. And all the rest.  The racism was already there.  After the referendum result the covert racists thought it was ok to come out in the open.  Any way you look at it Brexit is a disaster for our country.  Trouble is that by the time many people realise it, it'll be too late.

Whatever.

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ckn    3,759
44 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Why would coloureds be at the back of the bus though? I haven't done a head count but expect that white people are actually in the minority on this earth. Why wouldn't it be the case that whites were at the back?

Note: this is not a thread about brexit, I'm talking worldwide. It really kicked in after the depressing scenes in Charlottesville the other night which served to remind me how divided the world is.

One of the best non-fiction books I ever read that highlighted to me the insidious nature and huge consequences of open discrimination against others was about the Rwandan massacres.  We're also within living generations of the time when Jews were openly treated as sub-humans and people were having budget meetings about the most cost effective ways to eliminate them.  We're within the living generations of Americans who thought they'd broken the back of outright racism against black people in the 1950s and 60s.

It's things like that that make me angry to see people self-segregate because they want to be "comfortable".

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ckn    3,759
2 minutes ago, Trojan said:

Oh come off it.  The underlying theme of all the out organisations was racism.  The headlines in the papers screaming about immigrants every day set the tone.  The lie that millions of Turks were itching to come here. And all the rest.  The racism was already there.  After the referendum result the covert racists thought it was ok to come out in the open.  Any way you look at it Brexit is a disaster for our country.  Trouble is that by the time many people realise it, it'll be too late.

_90025744_033583881-1.jpg

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Futtocks    5,908
42 minutes ago, ckn said:

_90025744_033583881-1.jpg

Call me a racist if you like, but I see one person in that picture I'd like to kick out of the country. With spiked boots.

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