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Man of Kent

Restructuring options doing my head in

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How do we increase and protect expansion teams in SL while not killing off heartland clubs with a closed shop?

It really is a dilly of a pickle.

Do you have a closed shop 'World Rugby League' conference of Catalans, Toulouse, New York, London, Toronto and Canada 2? 

Do you then combine that with an 'English Rugby League' of 8-10 teams with P&R, maybe Leeds, Hull FC, Saints, Wigan, Warrington, Wakefield, Cas, Hull KR etc?

Is this possible? Desirable? 

Edited by Man of Kent

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16 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

How do we increase and protect expansion teams in SL while not killing off heartland clubs with a closed shop?

It really is a dilly of a pickle.

Do you have a closed shop 'World Rugby League' conference of Catalans, Toulouse, New York, London, Toronto and Canada 2? 

Do you then combine that with an 'English Rugby League' of 8-10 teams with P&R, maybe Leeds, Hull FC, Saints, Wigan, Warrington, Wakefield, Cas, Hull KR etc?

Is this possible? Desirable? 

Possible yes but heartland clubs would then whine if they finish higher than Catalans, Toulouse, NY, London and Canadians while still being retrograded.

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2 minutes ago, Hvy wg said:

Possible yes but heartland clubs would then whine if they finish higher than Catalans, Toulouse, NY, London and Canadians while still being retrograded.

Yes, you're right.

I guess it would have to look something like (Not Very) Super Rugby union down under which is a bit of a mess. But maybe not a showstopper. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Hvy wg said:

Possible yes but heartland clubs would then whine if they finish higher than Catalans, Toulouse, NY, London and Canadians while still being retrograded.

People, and the RFL especially need to pay less attention to whiners.. You will never please everyone.

Edited by jim_57

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1 minute ago, Man of Kent said:

Yes, you're right.

I guess it would have to look something like (Not Very) Super Rugby union down under which is a bit of a mess. But maybe not a showstopper. 

 

Or maybe one of the solutions would be to have a large franchised competition. Let's say we put the benchmark to 3-4k average attendance and an Academy to enter SL then you cannot get relegated as long as you fill the criterias.

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For the record. I don't see any problem with just setting the amount of spots from each country. The English clubs can keep p/r between themselves and the French and Canadians can have allocated spots which can be reduced or increased by the RFL. England keep their 11 clubs in Super League and France keep their 1. Increase to 14 total to invlude Toulouse & Toronto and no English clubs will have to be "sacrificed".

That goes for Championship too and ideally join Elite 1 in to the pyramid at a level below Championship.

Edited by jim_57

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1 minute ago, jim_57 said:

For the record. I don't see any problem with just setting the amount of spots from each country. The English clubs can keep p/r between themselves and the French and Canadians can have allocated spots which can be reduced or increased by the RFL. England keep their 11 clubs in Super League and France keep their 1. Increase to 14 total to invlude Toulouse & Toronto and no English clubs will have to be "sacrificed".

Yet ..... what about NY and Canada2 in a couple of years?

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41 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Do you have a closed shop 'World Rugby League' conference of Catalans, Toulouse, New York, London, Toronto and Canada 2? 

London are part of the World league? 

So in this scenario, there is a SL with an M62 Conference and a World Conference?

  • Haha 2

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20 minutes ago, Hvy wg said:

Possible yes but heartland clubs would then whine if they finish higher than Catalans, Toulouse, NY, London and Canadians while still being retrograded.

If they are in separate conferences, they wouldn't be competing for the same league places. You wouldn't be able to finish above/below then so they can't complain.

Cas, Hudds, Hull FC, Hull KR, Leeds, Salford, Saints, Wakey, Wire, Wigan.

Avignon, Catalans, Montreal, New York, Toronto, Toulouse.

The future will be to build that second conference to include more teams over time, not replace existing British clubs.

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11 minutes ago, ojx said:

Yet ..... what about NY and Canada2 in a couple of years?

Deal with that when it comes to it. When that amount of clubs look viable a total reshake might be needed, maybe introducing conferences as mentioned.

Edited by jim_57

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1 hour ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

If they are in separate conferences, they wouldn't be competing for the same league places. You wouldn't be able to finish above/below then so they can't complain.

Cas, Hudds, Hull FC, Hull KR, Leeds, Salford, Saints, Wakey, Wire, Wigan.

Avignon, Catalans, Montreal, New York, Toronto, Toulouse.

The future will be to build that second conference to include more teams over time, not replace existing British clubs.

What would be the point of having them if they're not competing? What happens if one of them actually wins more than the top of the heartland table?

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1 hour ago, ojx said:

London are part of the World league? 

So in this scenario, there is a SL with an M62 Conference and a World Conference?

You need to understand that these Brits don't have a clue how that sort of structure works, as evidenced by the nutty idea of making London and the French clubs play in the same division as the ones here in America.

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2 hours ago, Big Picture said:

You need to understand that these Brits don't have a clue how that sort of structure works, as evidenced by the nutty idea of making London and the French clubs play in the same division as the ones here in America.

Understood. However, MOK may have a point, there could be merit in separating the M62 from expansion teams. The vitriol from a vocal minority in the heartlands gets very tiresome.

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6 hours ago, Hvy wg said:

What would be the point of having them if they're not competing? What happens if one of them actually wins more than the top of the heartland table?

They would be competing. They'd just be in separate conferences. They'd still play each other in cross-conference games (but only one, reducing travel as they'd only play 3 long distance away games as opposed to 6). They'd also compete in the play offs.

If one of them wins more than the top of the heartland table, they'd be in a very good position in the playoffs to win the SL Championship.

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7 hours ago, ojx said:

London are part of the World league? 

So in this scenario, there is a SL with an M62 Conference and a World Conference?

The thinking is the 'Calling It World Makes It Sound Glamorous Conference ' is for expansion clubs and protected from relegation, and separate from the 'Mushy Peas & Barmcake Grim Up North Conference' :D

 

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8 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

How do we increase and protect expansion teams in SL while not killing off heartland clubs with a closed shop?

It really is a dilly of a pickle.

Do you have a closed shop 'World Rugby League' conference of Catalans, Toulouse, New York, London, Toronto and Canada 2? 

Do you then combine that with an 'English Rugby League' of 8-10 teams with P&R, maybe Leeds, Hull FC, Saints, Wigan, Warrington, Wakefield, Cas, Hull KR etc?

Is this possible? Desirable? 

Last thing we want to do is hold the new clubs back so no salary cap and no restriction on numbers of over season players,. 

Would be great to get sky to sponsor London, something like Vodafone warriors 

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Just remember who dug the well. People have a right to protect the heartland of the game. Without it none of your expansion clubs would have the players or someone to play. Many of SL clubs have players born and bred playing the game in some of the country's least glamorous places. Places like The Heavy Woollen that have never had a SL place but have produced some of its best talent.

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8 hours ago, Hvy wg said:

Possible yes but heartland clubs would then whine if they finish higher than Catalans, Toulouse, NY, London and Canadians while still being retrograded.

And quite rightly so, any of those teams knowingly that they are exempt from relegation, could use any matches they wish to put out experimental teams, i.e. fringe players who would be effectivly a weaker team than first choice.

Now that would not be a problem to those teams were relegation does not matter, but it could give other teams an advantage/disadvantage in the points table.

It is a totally stupid ludicrous idea, to gave teams in the same division a different set of criteria, god knows there is enough moaning at the moment and Catalan are playing under the same rules as everyone else, just suppose that over the last two season's when Leeds and Warrington could have been in big do-dohs if their immediate opposition for relegation had been given easier games, or should i say games  manipulated that way, there would be all hell to play.

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If restructuring options are doing  your head in, then avoid the multiplicity of forum topics on this very subject. You'll feel much better, much fresher, much cleaner, clearer in your mind and will enjoy this seasons remaning games and the upcoming world cuo much more, especially as there is nothing you can do about any of this.😀

 Que sera, sera.

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1 hour ago, West Leeds Riviera said:

Apparently the structure for 2019 will be decided before the 2018 season

Have you really got confirmation of that?

I think that even to enter the season before a ball is kicked would be totally insane, whatever the sructure is in place in at the onset of the 18 season if it is the same as 17 it should be followed through into 19, not changed mid season.

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3 minutes ago, JohnM said:

If restructuring options are doing  your head in, then avoid the multiplicity of forum topics on this very subject. You'll feel much better, much fresher, much cleaner, clearer in your mind and will enjoy this seasons remaning games and the upcoming world cuo much more, especially as there is nothing you can do about any of this.😀

 Que sera, sera.

If you are refering to me, No John they are not doing my head in I am just pointing out some frailties in the suggestions that others under the "influence of expansion" either may be missing or have not got the grey matter to comprehend.

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2 hours ago, West Leeds Riviera said:

Apparently the structure for 2019 will be decided before the 2018 season

"Apparently" according to which source?

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Why do we need to protect expansion teams? By bringing in ones that will generate sufficient revenues via new broadcasting deals, we use that money to create a SL2 that can be move towards full-time, and thus any expansion team relegated falls into a well funded, near full time comp. Relegation doesn't need to be a disaster. Talk of conferences is premature. Not enough new teams in the pipeline yet.

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Conferences sound like they're coming and I think I would initially break things up this way in 2019 (depending on increased money in the game to support 16 teams):

Super League Eastern Conference (8 teams):  

Leeds, Hull, Hull KR, Castleford, Wakefield, Huddersfield, London Broncos, Catalans

Super League Western Conference (8 teams):

Wigan, St Helens, Warrington, Toronto, Montreal, Salford, Widnes, Leigh

Play h&a fixtures against your conference and 1 x (either h&a) each team in the other conference.  Scrap points and go to NA style W-L-T format with tie breakers depending on record against teams in own conference.  

Top 3 from each conference advance to playoffs with 1st place teams getting a bye and home advantage throughout playoffs (except the final)

2nd plays at home to 3rd in both conferences.  Winner plays the 1st place team in the OTHER conference to allow for possibility of Wigan-Saints, Hull-Leeds etc finals. The two winners of those matches play in Grand Final.

For the rest of the pyramid structure:

Championship Eastern Conference (8 teams):

Toulouse, Featherstone, Bradford, Batley, Dewsbury, Sheffield, York, Newcastle

Championship Western Conference (8 teams):

New York, Halifax, Rochdale, Oldham, Swinton, Barrow, Whitehaven, Workington

Each team plays h&a fixtures and 1 x interconference games against the other Conference. No automatic promotion or relegation.  

The top two in each conference go into a 6 game mini league with the bottom two from each respective Super League conference.  The top two from each conference mini league go into/stay in Super League East and West.

League One Eastern Conference:

Hunslet, London Skolars, Doncaster, Avignon, Hemel 

League One Western Conference:

North Wales, West Wales Raiders, Coventry, Bristol, Manchester Rangers

Play every other team in League One home and away (not just 1 x interconference).  Top two from each conference enter play off with bottom two from each respective Championship conference to form two mini leagues of 4 playing 6 h&a games each.  Top two from each mini league get promoted/stay in each Championship conference.

I would probably keep adding NA teams to the Western conference and French teams to Eastern conference as warranted.

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