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The Daddy

Salford. Trouble at mill.

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I fear for Salford and all their valuable assets seem to be on the way out.

On a different tangent, i have been intrigued by Derek Beaumonts acumen in regards to his relaxed views pre and post relegation. He was certainly dignified once relegation was confirmed.

I actually contacted him on Twitter stating if any club faces relegation, irrespective of the MPG result and he didnt get back to me.

Was he possibly aware of the Salford situation and a possible reprieve ?

 

Irrespective, good luck to Salford. I hope they get it sorted and take their rightful place in SL next season.

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30 minutes ago, getdownmonkeyman said:

These company accounts have been known and talked about for some time and seem to the basis that the recent articles are based on.

Everything else is pure speculation, as there have been no recent accounts, so no one really knows what Koukash has done with the debt in the last 12 months.

It may now stand at £10m and he may well do all he can to recover as much as he can, which would finish Salford or he may take the route that their co-tenent's previous owner did in his last 12 months and pay off their £15m debt and pass it on debt free.

Only 1 person actually knows and at the minute he isn't saying very much.

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2 minutes ago, Snowys Backside said:

I fear for Salford and all their valuable assets seem to be on the way out.

On a different tangent, i have been intrigued by Derek Beaumonts acumen in regards to his relaxed views pre and post relegation. He was certainly dignified once relegation was confirmed.

I actually contacted him on Twitter stating if any club faces relegation, irrespective of the MPG result and he didnt get back to me.

Was he possibly aware of the Salford situation and a possible reprieve ?

 

Irrespective, good luck to Salford. I hope they get it sorted and take their rightful place in SL next season.

Let's hope so. They have the makings of a big club given time and effort, and they were starting to become effective and enjoyable on the field as well. My main concern, though is for the council tax payers of salford

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8 minutes ago, Tongs ya bas said:

The principle of promotion being earned on the pitch.

Surely you aren't in favour of rewarding failure.

Hey, I don't mind what they do, although I'm not sure what the point would be other than making up the numbers. I'm just going by what people who care so much about prom and reg being earned on the field have said over the years.

My point is, the principle of a place being earned on the pitch means if a team drops out of SL, then SL either goes down to 11 teams, or Leigh get a reprieve on the grounds of being the next ranked team. I.e. Salford drop to bottom, everyone else moves up a place.

We were fortunate in 2009, as you could argue that the league 1 runners up should've been given the place, but in this instance it would be more clear cut because the 8s gives a placing for bottom 4 SL and top 4 Champ.

Either way, my preference would be for a team not to go belly up in the first place. I assume we can agree on that?

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1 minute ago, Tongs ya bas said:

Let's hope so. They have the makings of a big club given time and effort, and they were starting to become effective and enjoyable on the field as well. My main concern, though is for the council tax payers of salford

The AJ Bell Stadium is just a white elephant and is crucifying this great club. I used to enjoy going to the Willows as a Leigh Fan and packing the cop end giving each other some stick.

It would be right for Leigh to replace them should things go belly up. 12 months isnt a great time frame to establish yourself but we did average well over 6000 fans, have a great stadium and only technically finished 11th.

 

BUT, we are currently a Championship club (Though i must say the signing we have made so far could indicate a hidden agenda).

 

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10 minutes ago, Tongs ya bas said:

The principle of promotion being earned on the pitch.

Surely you aren't in favour of rewarding failure.

Hey, I don't mind what they do, although I'm not sure what the point would be other than making up the numbers. I'm just going by what people who care so much about prom and reg being earned on the field have said over the years.

So which team will have earned promotion over and above Leigh (should Salford be unable to compete in SL next season), who were comfortably the best of the teams to miss out on SL status through the current system of the Qualifying 8s, based on performance on the pitch?

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Konkrete's notion of "the Giants being next" is more wishful thinking than anything based on logic tbh.

 

As for Salford, the move to the AJ Bell and the timing of their financial collapse seems to simply have further hamstrung them, combined with Koukash wasting a lot of money on the wrong players early on 

Good luck to them Though, they looked like they had seemingly turned stuff around on field at least 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Krzzystuff said:

And what NA team would be ready to compete in the SL by next year? Any proposed teams are set to start in 2019 and 2020 respectively and TWP is being built to compete in the championship not SL. If you move us up to quickly we will likely finish near the bottom and all the nay sayers will just say that they knew we couldn't cut it. 

We don't want to be fast tracked! We want the time to get the team to gel with the new recruits and get accustomed to stiffer competition. pretty big jump in competitiveness from League 1 to SL no?

We will wait until 2019 for our SL debut based on our on field success.

All fair points.  Please understand though that my point was merely a suggestion as to what might happen, not a recommendation.

If Salford's Super League place was bought, not necessarily by Toronto, then the players could also be part of the deal.  Not all of them may want to, but I'm sure they would rather represent a North American club for a Super League salary than a drop to the Championship or League One.

There have been some very recent examples of clubs moving and merging and also credible stories of approaches being made to relocate current Super League outfits.  If I was involved at Salford and offered a few million I think I'd give it serious consideration.

Not saying this is what I think might or should happen, just throwing it out there as a possibility.

By the way, I wish Toronto only the very best and am extremely keen to see them successfully competing in the top tier at the earliest opportunity.

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2 hours ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

So which team will have earned promotion over and above Leigh (should Salford be unable to compete in SL next season), who were comfortably the best of the teams to miss out on SL status through the current system of the Qualifying 8s, based on performance on the pitch?

None of them have earned it, neither have Leigh. This is the point. We have all this stuff year on year about clubs being promoted purely on their performances on the field. People get get up about it, and it's supposed to be a matter of principle. The only club to have earned anything by that principle is hull Kingston Rovers. Leigh were failures, so were the clubs that finished behind hull kr in the championship. 

It doesn't bother me, other than the idea of club  being put into the elite competition to make the numbers up being a disappointment. 

It just seems odd that people are so insouciant about something that when it suits being against all they believe in in sport.

If Salford get chucked out they will be replaced by a club that performed far worse than them on the field, and with far less potential for the future. I think that's a shame. I hope the stories of doom and gloom regarding Salford are unfounded.

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1 hour ago, Ant said:

Konkrete's notion of "the Giants being next" is more wishful thinking than anything based on logic tbh.

 

As for Salford, the move to the AJ Bell and the timing of their financial collapse seems to simply have further hamstrung them, combined with Koukash wasting a lot of money on the wrong players early on 

Good luck to them Though, they looked like they had seemingly turned stuff around on field at least 

 

 

I've read Konkrete's contributions on here many many times.

I could be wrong, but I don't think he thinks like that. 

However I concur with your other comments

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4 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Why? If a club goes bust because they have overspent, then they have flouted the competition rules and gained an unfair onfield advantage that year which would have put them lower down the league. The governing body would in effect be taking all of their competition points away.

So no, there are no moral obligations to stay relegated "on principle" that you've made. 

Nice try though, but must try harder. That'll be the end of it.

If this happens after the 30th of November then it hasnt happened during the season and as such no unfair onfield advantage could possibly have been gained.

Franchising and relegating a club for going bust and promoting another in its place are simply a matter of degree. They are on the same spectrum of deciding things off the field.

Deciding things on the field and deciding them off it are entirely different principles.

There is clear hypocrisy in arguing that promotion and relegation should be decided on the field, and then deciding it off the field however much people dont like to be reminded of it.

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5 hours ago, phiggins said:

So what criteria are you basing the choice of London on?

They have much more to offer the game than most other alternatives. Plus, they didn't get relegated. 

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There is a lot of rumours about players, Tasi sacked, BMM off to Warrington. Did Koukash sign players on long term deal to recoup the money in fees?

I am hanging on before paying for my season ticket.

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15 hours ago, Konkrete said:

They have much more to offer the game than most other alternatives. Plus, they didn't get relegated. 

And they haven't  banged on about how on the pitch is the only fair and just way to be promoted

Edited by Tongs ya bas

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3 hours ago, Tongs ya bas said:

I've read Konkrete's contributions on here many many times.

I could be wrong, but I don't think he thinks like that. 

However I concur with your other comments

There are only a few people who wilfully want a club to go under, and I think we've seen quite a number of those in the last few years wetting themselves at our position.  I'm definitely not one of those. 

There are striking similarities between Salford and the Giants well worth mentioning. 

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3 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

If this happens after the 30th of November then it hasnt happened during the season and as such no unfair onfield advantage could possibly have been gained.

Franchising and relegating a club for going bust and promoting another in its place are simply a matter of degree. They are on the same spectrum of deciding things off the field.

Deciding things on the field and deciding them off it are entirely different principles.

There is clear hypocrisy in arguing that promotion and relegation should be decided on the field, and then deciding it off the field however much people dont like to be reminded of it.

It's not really relegating a club got going bust, is it? If they're bust, they're dead! They don't exist anymore. You can't keep them in if they don't exist anymore!

You promote the next best ranked club (ranked by, you know... performances on the field and that).

There's absolutely no hypocrisy at all. It's desperate to claim it is.

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Expansion fantasists will already be plotting Torontos Inclusion in SL in place of Salford. 

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26 minutes ago, Konkrete said:

 

There are striking similarities between Salford and the Giants well worth mentioning. 

Such as?

And I hope they are unique to the two clubs and can't be applied to any other clubs in SL

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6 hours ago, phiggins said:

My point is, the principle of a place being earned on the pitch means if a team drops out of SL, then SL either goes down to 11 teams, or Leigh get a reprieve on the grounds of being the next ranked team. I.e. Salford drop to bottom, everyone else moves up a place.

We were fortunate in 2009, as you could argue that the league 1 runners up should've been given the place, but in this instance it would be more clear cut because the 8s gives a placing for bottom 4 SL and top 4 Champ.

Either way, my preference would be for a team not to go belly up in the first place. I assume we can agree on that?

Certainly

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21 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

It's not really relegating a club got going bust, is it? If they're bust, they're dead! They don't exist anymore. You can't keep them in if they don't exist anymore!

You promote the next best ranked club (ranked by, you know... performances on the field and that).

There's absolutely no hypocrisy at all. It's desperate to claim it is.

No they aren't dead at all. Are you suggesting that Salford will cease to exist? 

Time and time again we have heard from certain circles about how clubs should be admitted to super league.

Leigh 'earned' their relegation, they weren't good enough, they were failures. 

If they go back up they won't have earned the right by their own principles.

None of this is leigh's fault: the responsibility lies with Salford. 

Admitting a club that failed on the field back into the elite is poor, it doesn't enhance the comp. But if Salford do have to leave super league it is hard to envisage another solution except a frivolous induction of London who have never whinged about the process of admission. But surely Leigh or any other of their brethren in the 'it's not fair' club must at least feel a little embarrassed considering their previous 'principled' protestations.

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8 minutes ago, Tongs ya bas said:

No they aren't dead at all. Are you suggesting that Salford will cease to exist? 

Time and time again we have heard from certain circles about how clubs should be admitted to super league.

Leigh 'earned' their relegation, they weren't good enough, they were failures. 

If they go back up they won't have earned the right by their own principles.

None of this is leigh's fault: the responsibility lies with Salford. 

Admitting a club that failed on the field back into the elite is poor, it doesn't enhance the comp. But if Salford do have to leave super league it is hard to envisage another solution except a frivolous induction of London who have never whinged about the process of admission. But surely Leigh or any other of their brethren in the 'it's not fair' club must at least feel a little embarrassed considering their previous 'principled' protestations.

If they go bust yes, they cease to exist. Another club is formed. 

They were relegated as they were ranked 13 after the Qualifiers. They'd be ranked 12th should a club drop out. They'd have still earned it in the field as that's where their ranking comes from.

You can keep banging this drum about hypocrisy and not being able to accepif a place in SL on principle, but if this is where  you need to score points against P&R supporters then it shows how desperate you must be and how weak your original argument must have been.

So, you've made your point. Can we get on with talking about the topic now or will we be subjected to more and more "licensing/P&R" rubbish?

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1 hour ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

It's not really relegating a club got going bust, is it? If they're bust, they're dead! They don't exist anymore. You can't keep them in if they don't exist anymore!

You promote the next best ranked club (ranked by, you know... performances on the field and that).

There's absolutely no hypocrisy at all. It's desperate to claim it is.

How can

8 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

they have flouted the competition rules and gained an unfair onfield advantage that year which would have put them lower down the league.

and

9 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

The governing body would in effect be taking all of their competition points away.

If

1 hour ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

they're bust, they're dead! They don't exist anymore. You can't keep them in if they don't exist anymore!

So which is it? A punishment or the natural repercussion of that club ceasing to exist? It cant be both, it can be only one.

And if you want to now argue that it is the natural solution to a club ceasing to exist (which is in direct opposition of your original argument) I can point out that historically we have always treated the formation of the new club as a continuation of the old club.

But how can that be if they ceased to exist? how can you go to odsal next year if Bradford ceased to exist? because it is a brand new club and not a continuation of the old one? How come they got a points deduction then? As a brand new club they couldnt have possibly done anything to earn one.

The obvious answer would be that whilst a new company is formed, the club and its share and membership of the RFL is treated as a continuation of the old one. As such any relegation would be a punishment for the off the field issues and only a matter of degrees away from franchising and in direct opposition to the principle of deciding promotion and relegation on the field. It would be rank hypocrisy.

 

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1 hour ago, Ant said:

Such as?

And I hope they are unique to the two clubs and can't be applied to any other clubs in SL

How about you use your psychic powers, the ones on show earlier... 😉 

Edited by Konkrete

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