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Maximus Decimus

World Cup Crowds

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2 minutes ago, shaun mc said:

6628 for Scotland v NZ

And, in my experience there was more than 1% Scottish, included people I spoke to with Scottish accents but who were living Cumbria. Scotland is only 40 mins away from Workington

Not where I was standing ? didn't hear a scottish accent at any of the WC games, mind you most people south of Lancaster think we are all Jocks anyhow.

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1 hour ago, eal said:

But are we seeing great RL played with heritage teams? I would argue that so far in the current World Cup we haven't. I am not sure what the short-term answer is for international RL, but I am fairly certain heritage teams are not it.

You havent enjoyed Tonga and Samoa?

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2 hours ago, eal said:

Most Rugby World Cup games were quite competitive as the code has focused on genuine development and not allowing players to change teams monthly. Rugby Union has a far better international footprint with about six teams (NZ, England, Ireland, South Africa, France, Australia) capable of winning the tournament and the next tier of nations (Wales, Argentina, Japan, Scotland, Italy) providing competitive fixtures. The gap between the elite teams and the rest has rapidly closed in Union, in Rugby League it is much the same as ever.

Ireland? No chance. France too is a bit of a stretch (tho a poor France came remarkably close not long ago). The other four are genuine contenders, though Australia would be massive outsiders. The Bledisloe is now a routine win for NZ. France and Aus used to be a major challenge for NZ, no more. The sport has nosedived in Aus since 2007, while the French, with their flair long dead, play a brutish game that is alien to them. That just leaves England and South Africa to challenge them and prevent a third straight win.

RU at the top end was more competitive over a decade ago. 

RU has yet to step out of its comfort zone when it comes to world cups. A tournament in England where you can call upon the twickenham, Murrayfield, Cardiff and Dublin crowds to fill up the stadiums, that's not a sign of growth. Likewise a tournament in SA or NZ. 97% of the 33 million RUWC tv audience are from the top 8 RU playing nations (4 home nations, Fra, NZ, SA and Aus..and in Aus it was just 900,000 for a final that involved them). Will be interesting to see how it does in Japan.

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2 hours ago, Dave T said:

Im not sure what your definition of close is, but the opener was a 6 point game with just minutes left.

Similarly there have been enthralling battles between Tonga and Samoa, Ireland v Italy and France and Lebanon, and England was hardly a rout today!

Pretty much all World Cups have mismatches in early rounds, its not an issue.

Crowds have been disappointing, but 2013 showed there is interest and they are at historic highs for these teams you call a farce. They are disappointing within context.

There are some gems in there, like tge game today and PNG games, as well as the Kiwis going ok.

The tv viewing figures in Oz are very impressive.

That's in England Dave. Where else would get crowds for those heritage teams? Any attendance figures for fixtures in heritage countries? Scotland crowds, Wales etc etc. Out of interest have Ireland played a game in Ireland? 

Edit: course they have, in Limerick in 2013. Forgot that one. Any others and what were the attendances? 

Edited by EHarris

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2 hours ago, walter sobchak said:

Moses will continue to keep playing for Lebanon until the kangaroos come calling. Taumalolo will go back to NZ once kidwell is gone.

If the Kiwis go all the way and win this (which they very well might judging by their performance against Samoa), then Kidwell might be staying for a while.

Edited by Big Picture

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57 minutes ago, EHarris said:

That's in England Dave. Where else would get crowds for those heritage teams? Any attendance figures for fixtures in heritage countries? Scotland crowds, Wales etc etc. Out of interest have Ireland played a game in Ireland? 

Edit: course they have, in Limerick in 2013. Forgot that one. Any others and what were the attendances? 

Dunno what you are banging on about.

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Dunno what you are banging on about.

I think he's trying to make you aware that there were only 5K in Limerick in 2013.

Did you know my dad (and mum) are/were from Limerick?  I do because as a child I had to recite the 'only 5K in Limerick' mantra every morning.

I jest of course, I had to recite the entire Celtic 67 winning team.

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7 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

I think he's trying to make you aware that there were only 5K in Limerick in 2013.

Did you know my dad (and mum) are/were from Limerick?  I do because as a child I had to recite the 'only 5K in Limerick' mantra every morning.

I jest of course, I had to recite the entire Celtic 67 winning team.

Simpson, Craig and Gemmell...

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22 minutes ago, Celt said:

Simpson, Craig and Gemmell...

We got Dalglish, Buchan and Macari......oh hang on that was Rod Stewart 1978 WC song 😂

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Dunno what you are banging on about.

You were responding to "teams filled up with ex-pats", stating "there is interest"

I then asked what were the attendances in games played in these nations. The Ireland comment I genuinely forgot about 2013 (despite having mentioned it previously). I was thinking of qualifying games for the RLWC...which I'm sure Ireland have to go through. So where do they play and what are the attendances?

Italy vs Ireland as a fixture brings up fond memories...Giants Stadium, New Jersey, World Cup...Roberto Baggio (and the Italy attack) vs Paul McGrath. Last Euros also, Robbie Brady..pandemonium.

My favourite RL memory (which appropriately involved an Irishman) was Brian Carney scoring that fabulous try for GB against the Aussies (at Man City?). An Ireland RL team with a spine of Irish players and you'd soon see genuine interest (of course to get that spine needs grassroots of the game here first).

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56 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

I think he's trying to make you aware that there were only 5K in Limerick in 2013.

Did you know my dad (and mum) are/were from Limerick?  I do because as a child I had to recite the 'only 5K in Limerick' mantra every morning.

I jest of course, I had to recite the entire Celtic 67 winning team.

Haha. Very good.

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5 minutes ago, EHarris said:

You were responding to "teams filled up with ex-pats", stating "there is interest"

I then asked what were the attendances in games played in these nations. The Ireland comment I genuinely forgot about 2013 (despite having mentioned it previously). I was thinking of qualifying games for the RLWC...which I'm sure Ireland have to go through. So where do they play and what are the attendances?

I can help you there.  They played in European Qualifying Group B against Spain and Russia which they won and gained direct entry.  They only played two matches, Spain away in Valencia with the crowd not published as far as I know and Russia home in Bray with a crowd of 867.

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too many people complaining on here for me and not putting their money where their mouth is. how can anyone complain about crowds if they cant be arsed to make the effort themselves.

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1 hour ago, IM2 said:

too many people complaining on here for me and not putting their money where their mouth is. how can anyone complain about crowds if they cant be arsed to make the effort themselves.

You're overlooking the fact that for most on here that effort would mean flying halfway around the world, staying in hotels and eating in restaurants for an extended vacation, which could cost a lot of money.

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5 hours ago, EHarris said:

Ireland? No chance. France too is a bit of a stretch (tho a poor France came remarkably close not long ago). The other four are genuine contenders, though Australia would be massive outsiders. The Bledisloe is now a routine win for NZ. France and Aus used to be a major challenge for NZ, no more. The sport has nosedived in Aus since 2007, while the French, with their flair long dead, play a brutish game that is alien to them. That just leaves England and South Africa to challenge them and prevent a third straight win.

RU at the top end was more competitive over a decade ago. 

RU has yet to step out of its comfort zone when it comes to world cups. A tournament in England where you can call upon the twickenham, Murrayfield, Cardiff and Dublin crowds to fill up the stadiums, that's not a sign of growth. Likewise a tournament in SA or NZ. 97% of the 33 million RUWC tv audience are from the top 8 RU playing nations (4 home nations, Fra, NZ, SA and Aus..and in Aus it was just 900,000 for a final that involved them). Will be interesting to see how it does in Japan.

SA is no longer competative due to selection on racial lines.

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2 hours ago, EHarris said:

My favourite RL memory (which appropriately involved an Irishman) was Brian Carney scoring that fabulous try for GB against the Aussies (at Man City?).

You are a very confused person.

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6 hours ago, EHarris said:

You were responding to "teams filled up with ex-pats", stating "there is interest"

I then asked what were the attendances in games played in these nations. The Ireland comment I genuinely forgot about 2013 (despite having mentioned it previously). I was thinking of qualifying games for the RLWC...which I'm sure Ireland have to go through. So where do they play and what are the attendances?

Italy vs Ireland as a fixture brings up fond memories...Giants Stadium, New Jersey, World Cup...Roberto Baggio (and the Italy attack) vs Paul McGrath. Last Euros also, Robbie Brady..pandemonium.

My favourite RL memory (which appropriately involved an Irishman) was Brian Carney scoring that fabulous try for GB against the Aussies (at Man City?). An Ireland RL team with a spine of Irish players and you'd soon see genuine interest (of course to get that spine needs grassroots of the game here first).

We are talking about World Cup tournaments. I uave no interest in these side debates you keep trying to start.

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6 hours ago, Big Picture said:

You're overlooking the fact that for most on here that effort would mean flying halfway around the world, staying in hotels and eating in restaurants for an extended vacation, which could cost a lot of money.

no i am not. we keep using the union WC as comparisons and the reality is tens of thousands of british fans go to their WC so why is it not a valid comp to ask why those who are complaining dont go as well?

 

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34 minutes ago, IM2 said:

no i am not. we keep using the union WC as comparisons and the reality is tens of thousands of british fans go to their WC so why is it not a valid comp to ask why those who are complaining dont go as well?

 

So if you dont have £10k per person and/or the time to go to the World Cup you cannot have a say?

I dont often say this, but your point is simply stupid.

This board is full of people who put their money where their mouth is and are engaged in different forms, but we cant say that 5k in Canberra is ###### unless we were there?

Dumb.

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

So if you dont have £10k per person and/or the time to go to the World Cup you cannot have a say?

I dont often say this, but your point is simply stupid.

This board is full of people who put their money where their mouth is and are engaged in different forms, but we cant say that 5k in Canberra is ###### unless we were there?

Dumb.

The comparison for us should be to the last RLWC and we saw better crowds there, without a huge influx of Australian supporters. I met a great family who'd travelled up for it while I was at one of the games I went to see, but that was it, the vast majority were drawn from the local population. Sadly, for whatever reason, there are more games here that are struggling to attract passable crowds.

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9 hours ago, Big Picture said:

You're overlooking the fact that for most on here that effort would mean flying halfway around the world, staying in hotels and eating in restaurants for an extended vacation, which could cost a lot of money.

It is also completely irrelevant. Even if every single person on here had spent thousands of pounds travelling around the world, it would hardly make a dent and not change the overall conclusions.

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I had a quick scan at some of the numbers to compare 2013 vs 2017. 2013 in bold.

Rd 1 - Average of 10.7k vs 12.9k

Rd 2 - Average of 10.6k vs 12.7k

So when you look at these averages the numbers are not stupidly different, although it does mean we are around 30k fans down so far. But in 2013 we still did have plenty of lower end crowds, we just had them in sensible grounds. The ground selection has been the real issue tbh, as it could actually disguise some of the crowds and at least make them look like bustling and popular events. Staging events with 5k in a 25k ground means that you have failed to be blunt. In the group stages in 2013 we were celebrating really rather modest crowds, and things like 7.6k in Workington looked and sounded great, 8.9k in Rochdale was celebrated as though it was 50k, same with some others. We did then have shockers in Neath and Limerick was disappointing (maybe not compared to this year).

I have forecasted what I think the rest of the 2017 will deliver based on what we have seen and I have come up with the following:

Total Attendance - 385k vs 458k (down 73k or 15%)

Total Average - 13.8k vs 16.3k 

The above assumes that the Brisbane Semi gets 25k and the Wellington one gets 30k for Eng v NZ and the Final gets 50k, so they are ambitious.

When you break it down by country:

Australia - 208k over 18 games (ave 11.6k) - this includes the final and semi final.

PNG - 44k over 3 games (ave 14.8k)

NZ - 132k over 7 games (ave 18.8k)

I think the above shows just how bad the crowds in Oz are. In terms of putting on a decent show, the Aussies have just failed so far, and I don't expect it to improve too much. For them to have the opener, 3 other Kangaroo games (group and QF), plus the Kangaroos semi and the Final - to only be able to average 11.6k for that is quite frankly pitiful. 

One final point for comparison purposes:

In 2008, Australia staged 18 games and got 293k (ave 16.3k)

This year, Australia will stage 18 games and I expect them to get 208k (ave 11.6k)

So forget about all the talk about Aussies not being interested due to lack of competitiveness or interest, as in 2008 they were even less interested and things were deemed less competitive as they had not lost a recent World Cup at that stage. 2008 was also the first WC after the disastrous 2000 tournament, so pretty much damaged goods.

I know it's not a completely accurate like for like, but thank God the organisers did go to PNG and NZ as well - they have dragged this tournament to respectability so far.

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Sellout crowds in PNG and NZ. The NZ games have been great with good crowds and atmosphere. I think a Shameful crowd of 21k in Sydney for Aus v Leb, with the vastly Majority Lebanese fans. Also lots of free Tickets given out. So much for Sydney being a massive League area!! 

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6 hours ago, Lounge Room Lizard said:

Sellout crowds in PNG and NZ. The NZ games have been great with good crowds and atmosphere. I think a Shameful crowd of 21k in Sydney for Aus v Leb, with the vastly Majority Lebanese fans. Also lots of free Tickets given out. So much for Sydney being a massive League area!! 

The Australian elements of the competition you’d have hoped would provide the core ticket sales to help maximise the RLIF’s profits. Hugely disappointing.

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